The Gate

HI, so this is my new thread for Vince who I have asked to be my guide.

I have been guided by several wonderful guides here on LU. All my threads are under my handle of trinidiana.

Vince, I have read through countless threads, the Gatecrasher book and Illona's lovely book too. Like so many others, I get this all on an intellectual level, but still feel separate, stuck and restless with a deep "seeking" drive. This, even after knowing intellectually that I can't get this with my "self", I have to say that of all the videos I have watched, and believe me, I have watched thousands, the words of Paul Fedderman speak to me the most, he really has a way of getting you to just look. The video here on LU on looking is also very lovely and helpful.

So Vince, I have done all the exercises and at the point of doing the exercises I see that there is no self that I can find, that I have no control over life happening or my thoughts. But, for example, I can do the exercises about the body and noticing there are no boundaries, however in day to life, there certainly do seem to be boundaries between me and everyone else. And the sense of self with its memories and problems etc are there.

I think that since beginning LU I believe earlier this year or maybe late last year, I definitely do go with the flow of life more. I don't have any wild expectations other than being freer and lighter by knowing the truth. I really want to find this out by myself. But though I believe that there is no inherent self and I can see how it is formed from conditioning and childhood, the sense of I is still there.

I think for me, what has been a stumbling block is the emotional element, emotions/feelings are thoughts but do have a physical component too and can be looked at. at least I think so anyway Anxiety and frustration and judgement are present and I wonder if not being able to see through these as thoughts have got in the way of my inquiry. I am simple speculating here.

Anyway, thanks Vince for taking on this guidance, momentum is very important for me and I do like to post every day. I look forward to this journey with you and are honored that you will be my guide!

Hola Diana, When i read your intro on an earlier thread, i kept going " wow, that was how it was for me too."
From when I first started searching to when searching stopped was 43 years. Some how i knew it was going to happen and so i started to document the search on a blog. Sure enough, 12 months later, it happened.
Yes the cosmic joke was apparent (hugely) The searching didn't end because of what i found, but came to a grinding halt because I realized that it was the searching that kept me from seeing that I already had everything that I thought was missing.
Tell me Diana, how much conditioning (how many years) have you been subjected to, up to this point?
By conditioning, i mean, things that you have been repeatedly told, by parents, peers, media, and mostly by repetitive thoughts, about life and how the world works.
Now, ask yourself, what magic is going to instantly dissolve all of that.
Do you think that this might be a progressive process ?
What do you think might start this process ?
For me it was realising that by continuing to look for something, that i was doggedly maintaining the status quo. If a searcher is no longer searching, are they still a searcher?
Is being a searcher, something that you identify with ?
Is being a spiritual seeker something that identifies you with being a good person?

Please answer every ? (question)
Don't edit your answers (except for spelling)
Just let it spill out uncensored.

Love

vince

Hi Vince, Ok so somehow I missed that you had replied,even though I had been looking lol, So was about to go to sleep and saw your reply which makes me very happy indeed! I then decided that I better get some sleep and continue in morning which I have now done and going to send this off to you now. I have answered every question as you asked below but before that commented on two of your sentences which resonated with me.

Ha ha . Not sure what part of my introduction you related to but it is heartwarming to know that someone can resonate with what I am going through and have been for a long time. Always a nice connection!

'

Some how i knew it was going to happen and so i started to document the search on a blog. Sure enough, 12 months later, it happened.'

I love this sentence Vince, and after 39 years, (I turned 50 this year but in some ways still like we all do I suppose feel like a little girl) I am still searching. I say 39 years because I feel somehow , though this is obviously part of my story, that ever since my dad gave me the book Jonathon Livingston Seagull to read at 11 , that it opened up my mind to a bigger reality , that I have felt the need to wake up or know the truth or more likely a deep yearning to go 'home' . A restlessness and feeling I was missing something. I like how you said that you knew it was going to happen and I wish I could definitely say that. Sometimes I feel that whatever seems to work for others doesn’t for me lol. But I am here and keep coming back to this so obviously I do believe that something is going to happen, a discovery of truth will be made, and it will be just how it’s supposed to be . I Never had any deep spiritual oneness experiences like many others, and that’s ok with me, but one thing I have it guess a kind of deep unwavering faith and knowing that there is something more and that God/Life is part of everything. Is that pantheism ? Something I picked up along the way in my conditioning I guess but nevertheless what I am trying to say is that I know there is mystery and intelligence to life that I cant gfathom and it’s awesome.

'

The searching didn't end because of what i found, but came to a grinding halt because I realized that it was the searching that kept me from seeing that I already had everything that I thought was missing.,

So this really resonates with me. You say the searching didn’t end because of discovery but because you realised that the very searching was what kept you from seeing that you already had everything you thought was missing. I do intuitively understand this to be so indeed. But that I can’t control the process which for now includes the seeking/searching. It’s easy to say stop , just stop, but I haven’t been able to. Yet I get that I have to. Or maybe just see through it all and it will grind to a halt for me too! Because whose the 'I' that needs to stop anyway?

Tell me Diana, how much conditioning (how many years) have you been subjected to, up to this point?

So 50 years thus far I have been conditioned by others, society and I agree mostly by repetitive thoughts about life and how the world works. I have also been influenced by much reading on spiritual topics, by being very inquisitive and thinking a lot (too much) and pondering lifes's mysteries. I grew up catholic but never really embraced it except liking alone time to talk to God, and enjoying the singing in church which gave me a nice feeling. Other than that, nada! Nature has been my biggest love And teacher. And becoming a mother which is part of nature. Marveling at the miracle of life which all happens perfecty without interference. Then in university doing courses on philosophy opened up my mind more and I particularly remember reading a book by Matthew fox called original blessing. Seemed to make a lot more sense than original sin. I think it was then that I learned and intuited this to be true, that we all had a divine spark. Another book in that course was meister eckharts teaching which was way over my heard at the time, i later did read him and other Christian mystics and felt that this was real and not the watered down silly teachings of the modern day church.

Forward several years and I did a whole yoga training back home in a Trinidad, complete with an Indian Guru. Learned about yogic philosophy, the Vedas, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the esoteric part of all religions. I found commonalities among them and had a love of learning. Although seeking something , the whole having to purify oneself to maybe finally reach enlightenment which it seemed could take lifetimes and only seemed to happen to a select few I always felt seemed near impossible to achieve to be honest. I then came across Advaita Vedanta and non dualism and then learned that there could be a direct path to know that focused on direct experience instead of faith, this appealed to me greatly, I never came across the illusion of self until recently though Sam Harris (whom I love) and LU. So this is fairly new and I guess has become my zeal and latest conditioning

Fast forward again and I find I have given away most of my spiritual books, and simplified into just trying to look and live and take one day at a time. Still a great sense of self though, restlessness, searching, a kind of anxiety or unhappiness too at one level, though interspersed with many moments of joy and love. I understand that that will never change and don’t have any expectations that they will. My only expectation and I mention this because I know it is always asked here on LU is that the story of my life will be taken less seriously with less stickiness so I would be freer and lighter upon direct knowing and seeing there is no doer or self, seeing through the illusion and knowing that the I story never existed anyway. So......at this point those I respect and feel point to the truth are sailor bob, John wheeler, adyashanti, Rupert spira., Elkhart tole Mooji, gangaji, roger Castillo and Paul fedderman among many others. And all this has been part of my conditioning. Growing up too as a white person in a Caribbean island has been a big part of my conditioning and now living for five years in Florida and being influenced by US conditioing . Being very aware of the chaos in the world right now and the deep polarization and even breakdown in morals and standards of modern society. And of course so much more. So by now I must have throughly bored you with all my story and lifetime conditioning. I don’t normally go on like this, I have learned to be succinct and look from direct experience to the best of my ability when on this forum, but you told me to spill it all lol. So please don’t think this is a typical answer and give up on this crazy woman !

Now, ask yourself, what magic is going to instantly dissolve all of that.

Hmm, I don’t think there is any 'magic' that will instantly dissolve all of that, I expect that even if successful here on LU by that I mean seeing through the illusion of me ness, that conditioing will still be there and won’t magically be dissolved.
And that it will be a lifetime of unfolding, Constant change and process, since this is how life is. Conditioning won’t just disappear. Maybe that happens to some like Eckhart Tolle but I don’t envision that happening to me. I think the magic really will be in seeing through the illusion by continually seeing what I am not, seeing through the story and conditioning , more of a via negative process, neti neti, if you know that term. Not sure am on the right track here so feel free to tell me if I am off base.

Do you think that this might be a progressive process ?

Well , I think it is isn’t it? Based on my answer to your last question. Or it probably will be gradual. But then again , I might just see through the illusion in a way that I can’t unsee it, like one of those optical illusion pics where all of a sudden you see the image. Isn’t it different for eveyone? And anyway aren’t I really already 'there' since it’s all an illusion anyway. IA big game, a cosmic joke! I know I am being a bit facetious Here, but I do try to learn from others stories who have seen through this but take them as 'descriptions' and not 'prescriptions'

What do you think might start this process ?

I would like to think the process has already started with my looking. I feel that in silence and in nature, there is more seeing what is real and that seeing through the story when I can 'IS' the process. But again I could be totally on the wrong track here.
Maybe it isn’t even a process. That’s why it needs to come to a grinding halt!

For me it was realising that by continuing to look for something, that i was doggedly maintaining the status quo.

Yes i am realizing this too. Which is why I just questioned whether it’s really a process at all... But yet I haven’t been able to just give it all up. I remember one thing the guide Hannah said to me which was useful and that was the analogy of instead of doing anything and efforting to think of it instead like a relaxing, a fist slowly unclenching. I really feel this to be true because I do realise I am basically blocking the discovery with intense searching.

If a searcher is no longer searching, are they still a searcher?

I think the answer to that would be no, no searching or seeking means they are not a searcher and I think the discovery is to know that the searcher never existed anyway.

Is being a searcher, something that you identify with ?

I dont think it’s something that I identify with. In this discourse. I have mentioned that getting rid of seeking is a desire, hence the name of the thread, so maybe that is something I identify with rather, being a searcher wanting to end seeking lol, but then I see that this means that I do identify as a seeker, ok, I won’t change this since you said to let it all spill out. I see that I obviously do identify as a searcher. But not because I want anyone else to think I am if that’s what you meant. The searcher trying to get rid of the searcher is I know, nonsensical indeed. That which is illusional which I identify with, trying to get rid of the illusion is indeed absurd, it really is. I see that.

Is being a spiritual seeker something that identifies you with being a good person?

This one I can honestly answer no, eveything I do now now in this regard is for the discovery and burning desire to know the truth for myself, not as any sort of role as being a good person, what even is a good person, all very subjective. So definitely not.

Whew, sorry to burden you with all this on your holiday Vince, hope you are not brain fried after reading this. I thank you sincerely for your time, I really do

Cheers
Diana

Good evening Diana, i just lost a couple of hours of responses (trying to do this stuff on a touch screen sucks) So, i'll leave you with this one exercise tonight.
Pick something that you think happened recently because you were in control. A controlled outcome.
Now, consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen.
If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?
How many of those conditions were outside of your influence?
If you could control something, would you always be able to control it? ..or if you can control something some of the time, but not other times, is that control?

Love

Vince

I know how frustrating that is Vince, today when I was typing I kept saving the draft even though I know its a pain because I was frightened I would lose it , very sorry to hear that. And I must say its very nice of you to still guide on LU even while on holiday.

Ok, to the exercise, wasn't sure if you wanted me to say what I had chosen, so in the interest of revealing how I did it, I include my choice.

Pick something that you think happened recently because you were in control. A controlled outcome.

I pick the fact that I am going to Chicago this weekend with my husband and son. Even though its a future event, its all been planned so that outcome has happened. Tickets and hotel booked. This is a recent event because I only decided a week ago .

Now, consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen

.

Ok, I am considering all of the conditions that were necessary. There are the usual ones like getting the flight, hotel etc. Deciding to go. However an unusual one, is the fact that two weeks ago, I was supposed to attend a yoga workshop in Jacksonville and it got cancelled at the very last minute. I saw online that there was one coming up in Chicago, and because I was able to get flights and hotels with points I had built up, I decided to go. First I was going alone, then I asked my husband and he said he wanted to come. First it was just going to be just us, but then, because our older 18 year old son is traveling in Europe right now, we decided to take him too thinking Chicago would be a good experience for him. So yes , many conditions were necessary to get to this stage and that were necessary for it to happen, the trip has now been planned and we leave the day after tomorrow. To actually get there of course, more conditions need to happen, like the plane in effect getting off and flying there successfully from Orlando to Chicago and one could think of tons more. Very complex indeed.

If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

If any one of the conditions were different the outcome would not be exactly the same, certainly in particular if the first workshop were not cancelled. The exact outcome at this point would be different if any one of the conditions had been changed, for sure this is so.

How many of those conditions were outside of your influence?

Many, well nearly all of the conditions seem outside of my influence, yes , pretty much all, except the decision to go still seems to be mine, didn’t you decide to plan to go to Spain? So it seems like conditions fell into place once I decided that were beyond my control, but the initial choice was mine to make At least a choice appears to have been made. An apparent choice. And it seems like I could easily have not decided to go to this worksop which means none of us would be going.

If you could control something, would you always be able to control it?

Hmm, if I could control something, that doesn’t mean I would always be able to control it is my first answer. But in this case, if I think that I had control whether to go to a place I have never visited before, would I always be able to control it? This is hard because I feel that I will in all likelihood say never choose to go to , lets say Siberia, I really would put my head on a block that in this life, I won't go to Siberia. So don't I have control of this choice? And can always control it? Im NOT going to Siberia . Am I misunderstanding this question ? Or, What if I tried to make some crazy choice like never brushing my teeth again, would that be in my control? I don’t know, this is hard. I am never getting a tattoo, isn't this control? I will never willingly hunt an animal, I can come up with so many choices the I think I have control over. Yet I now that these are all influenced by past events and life conditioning which I had no control over.

..or if you can control something some of the time, but not other times, is that control?

No then that would not be really control, it wouldn’t at all, it can't be some of the time to be control by definition I think.

OK, Im done for now, hope this is what you were looking for .

Enjoy your holiday!
Love Diana

Good evening Diana, good answers, now let's clear up the last bit of this.

except the decision to go still seems to be mine,

was it control that introduced the idea to go?
Are decisions an expression of control?

the initial choice was mine to make

Choice implies that alternatives were considered. Where did they come from? ..and what were the conditions involved in the outcome?
Tell how you now see control, choice and decisions...

Love

vince

Hi Vince.
Please don’t think I am not answering you, travelled today and in a yoga workshop this weekend. Today was crazy with lots of things behind my control lol. Going to answer you tomorrow at my two hour lunch time.
Take care
Diana

Ok, I decided to try a bit tonight anyway ...

‘

now let's clear up the last bit of this’

Can you explain this sentence a bit more. Why do you say the 'last bit' of this in particular? I like what you say but wanted to clarify.

OK, When I said the decision to go still seemed to be mine, you asked ..

was it control that introduced the idea to go?

At first It seemed so indeed. But I think I see where you are going with this question. The idea came. I thought it was mine thus think I controlled it. The idea came. That’s a fact. But does it mean I controlled its coming? Interesting. I can’t know For sure. It just popped into my head,like other thoughts do without any control. Hmmm....But then it would almost seem like some other force is controlling my life. But then again maybe it’s not my life but just life and I am claiming ownership erroneously. I never thought of it quite like this before. I feel Like I’m a person who believes in inspiration when I make decisions or think I make decisions but I guess I was thinking of inspiration like somehow maybe an outside benevolent force having my back. But maybe it’s just life and and decision choice just happened. This is interesting.

Are decisions an expression of control?

So I think that I just answered it and realizing that a decision is not an expression of control. I thought it was. Buy it isnt. Yet Still in some way it seems like I had control or it feels that way but upon examination no I didn’t . I can totally see it this way too

Choice implies that alternatives were considered.

Yes i think it does imply that. Like there was an alternative that could have been considered. Like ok I won’t plan to go to Chicago. And her I can’t explain exactly how the choice was made. But if choice just happened which I’m still not convinced it did, then alternatives couldn’t really have been considered could there. Or is that part of apparent choice, to apparently consider alternatives. But really it’s not under control.

Where did they come from? ..and what were the conditions involved in the outcome?

Ok so the alternative conditions would be thoughts and these thoughts seem to come from me but upon examination that would seem to not be actually true since no control was there. I don’t know where the alternative thoughts /decisions really came from.

Can you explain exactly what you are asking me when you ask the second part 'what were the conditions invomvex in the outcome?'

Tell how you now see control, choice and decisions...

Ok. So I think I have learned a Few things and also without going into too many details today taught me new lessons on how little control I have

In a nutshell. I happened to have had my last payment on my iPhone 6 yesterday and wanted the new iPhone X. So I went to sleep and set my alarm for theee am for the preorder thing. A little nutty before an early flight I know. Anyway everything went so smooth even though it was supposed to be crazy and I was most happy to not only secure my phone but Verizon offered me 300 for my old phone. More than market value.

Forward to today. We arrive in Chicago. Take the train to downtown. Walking Trying to find hotel and using phone for directions. I trip and fall hard. Phone cracks. So now my whole trade is messed up. I can’t bloody believe it.

Anyway point is. I was upset. But all the time realizing wow I really have no control. I was happy last night
Then I was mad and sad

Nothing was under my control. Absolutely nothing nothing.

So...The only part that still confuses me is the initial choosing. Like I wanted to go to Chicago. Or I wanted to order the iPhone. It feels that way.

Anyway I think that’s enough


But to answer your question

I realise that I don’t have control in the choice alternatives decisions or anything.

Yet why does it somehow still feel like my personality or preferences chooses things ?
I guess I have to go with direct evidence that shows I have no control. Instead of pointing to life somehow choosing I feel that it must be some essence of me or my make up or conditioning which allows me to choose


Anyway I am running in two hours sleep and have a long day tomorrow but really wanted to reply to you. Let me know where you think I am on or off track. Or how to end this thing to put it into your words

Take care
Love
Diana

BLOOY HELL! It just happened again. This time i decided (ha, the thought arose) that i would save the draft, and it failed because the wireless signal in the hotel room is too weak.
Now I tell you of this for two reasons. Before reading further, can you guess what they might be?
1/ Frustration still happens.
Only these days it doesn't evolve into anger like it used to. In fact it usually morphs into laughter, though not usually out loud.
i have a story that eventually the humor will replace the frustration completely.
2/ That the common use of language persists, even though it is accompanied by a knowing that there is no actual I, and that the 'decision' arose from the Unknown.
A story here, is that it might be because all of the conditions that it required, were present.

Still in some way it seems like I had control

Yes, ..and it is useful that this continues. It is necessary for navigating daily life. What will drop is any ego enhancement as a result of good outcomes, or any 'self' deprication because of poor outcomes.
We can be pleased by the good stuff, and disappointed with the other, but then humor will arise when that is seen to happen.

Can you explain exactly what you are asking me when you ask the second part 'what were the conditions involved in the outcome?'

i was wanting you to see that the conditions necessary for the outcome were also myriad and mostly outside of your influence.

Nothing was under my control. Absolutely nothing nothing.

...and yet things still happen. Wonder full, isn't it?

..But then it would almost seem like some other force is controlling my life.

This implies that some intelligence is necessarily controlling events. Is it possible that what seems like control is just a confluence of the circumstances present?

The only part that still confuses me

Confusion implies that an answer is necessary. Can you imagine that it is ok not to know?
..that you might be satisfied with touching the mystery of how things really work?

Love

Vince

Ha Ha I love how you started off with bloody hell! I feel your pain, mynew default usually though now I am winging it so who know whether I will lose this is to do it basically in notes and then copy and paste the whole thing over here, that way if anything happens I have a copy.

1. Yes frustration will occur you are saying, sometimes things will go our way and sometimes they wont, anger will arise but will not last as long. Not be as sticky because we are not so attached to outcomes going our way which honestly we dont control, so whats the point fo fretting. I feel this way a bit in Chicago, an older version of myself would have been sooooooo upset that the weather changed the day we arrived and it is so damn cold its unbearable, remember I am a Caribbean girl living in Florida lol! But I completely am able to go with the flow, realizing it is what it is . I used to hate that saying, well hate the tone people would take then they say it, but it really is true isnt it? I love your theory very much of how the humor will eventually replace the frustration completely. Yes !


2. I thought maybe what this second reason was going to be was the fact that we have no control, you lost your draft again, even though you had ‘decided’ to save it. But life happened in a different way because the internet was sloppy! And yes , I have listened to enough non dual teachers to know that its ridiculous to not use langauage the common way, it would be silly to do otherwise, and there have been come cases of people sounding very sill, havent there?

I resonate with what you say about navigating life and the ego enhancement of being special or whatever when things go right. Sometimes life goes our way and sometimes it doesnt and I dont think its really personal. There is a part of me that believes that being aligned with life more tends to provide more positive results, kind of like not kinking the hose, but its about surfing the ups and downs and not getting carried away with the stories of either the highs or lows, right? I love how you being humor into it, it makes life lighter. I always remember one yogas teacher line, he said, “Angels fly because they take themselves lightly”. Kind of silly but makes sense in a way.


Yes I completely see that the conditions necessary are myriad and pretty much nearly all outside of my influence. And yet as you say, things do still happen. I love it Vince, Wonder full. Life at its core even with its hardships seems to have so much wonder and beauty and benevolence, it isnt just random.
Getting back to conditions and life’s challenges though, of course it is easier to go with this all when its not a major thing like financial ruin say, or a child’s terrible illness etc. Some of the downs can be very hard.

This implies that some intelligence is necessarily controlling events. Is it possible that what seems like control is just a confluence of the circumstances present? [/quote ]

I am trying to understand what you mean here,to me it seems that there is such a natural intelligence that abounds in nature and in everything that its not exactly controlling events but that an intelligence exists and yes when conditions line up, things seem to work. A confluence of circumstances sounds a bit random. Is it ? You used ‘wonder full’ and this seems more like it to me. I think thats why you are able to laugh.

And finally Ido think that an answer is not all necessary and that it is ok to NOT know.
Yes , I do love the mystery, it might seem sometimes that life is brutal but it seems much more often than not it’s way more beautiful than brutal. I think I would be satisfied by touching the mystery Vince



Love Diana

[/quote]Good evening Diana,

There is a part of me that believes that being aligned with life more tends to provide more positive results,

it makes more sense to me to say that there is less likely hood of negative consequences when the flow of what life offers, is not resisted. ..or the distortion that arises from wanting things to be different, doesn't happen when THIS (what IS) is willingly welcomed.

Hmmm, I'm going to sleep now. i have to catch a plane in a few hours. i will finish this (hopefully) tomorrow night.
In the meantime, give me your take on the meaning of life, and responsibility.

Love


vince

Thanks Vince, I too am catching a plane tomorrow and spending tonight with my family, i will see what I can write on the plane. That’s a pretty deep and broad topic you want me to write one, I am Guessing you don’t want me to get too philosophical right?
Safe journey
Love
Diana

Morning Diana, get as philosophical as you like.
I’m wanting you to describe what you see as the nature of these things. what they are in actuality.


Love

vince

Hi Vince, Ok, I find the best way for me to write is not to think too much beforehand but just go with the flow and then words come, thoughts, which just pop into consciousness and I type them.

You ask for my take on the meaning of life and responsibility. And what I see as the nature of these things, what they are in actuality.

I guess I could start by saying that I really don’t know what they are in actuality and am probably wrong with any conjecture I give, we all see life though our colored glasses , we never see actuality before labeling and judgement happens, it’s impossible. The older I get the one thing I know more of is how much I don’t know. I don’t know the answer, I honestly don’t. Probably if i wrote this a few years ago or less, I would come up with something totally different to what I will now and still none would be right . The mind can make things so complicated and come up with so many thoughts on the meaning of life. I think my answer would have been more complex some years ago .

So honestly to me, at this point of life with my present conditioning, biology, make-up etc, all experiences thus far have led me to believe , which I know is still a thought , that there is existence, awareness and somehow it IS and that’s all that can really be known and there is order but not really any meaning as such. Each life form has its own completely different experience. A part of my conditioning want to say that one should try to be the best version of oneself , but this all more selling isn’t it, a part of my conditioning believes that there should be going towards a lining up with something bigger and more divine and wiser than our small selves to find our true purpose on earth etc and fulfill it, to be kinder and gentler with ourselves and the planet and help leave it a little better than when we came. But I see that thats all a story based on what Ive learned and read and my conditioning etc. And though I can’t define a ‘meaning’ as such to life, there is a drive to teach my children respect and kindness and that being embodied , even with its challenges, is a blessing not to be wasted.

No meaning , no story, but I truly think there is being, existence, order and completeness which is way beyond any of our’s individual comprehension. That we spend most of our lives missing out on so much because we are trapped in thoughts and mind which we don’t have control over anyway. Yet were lost in it. That somehow things go better when we are able to let this flow of life be, rather than trying (unsuccessfully anyway) to control things. That there is intelligence in this natural energy which is clear in nature, and that there is an order, that its not chaotic and random. I feel that ITS inherent qualities are benevolence and goodness and love. But you might say thats all just a story too and I guess it is.

There is so much I don’t understand and sometimes it bothers me and sometimes I can let it go. But it is hard to understand that, if everything is one and if life is just happening, then why is there so much of what seems wrong and evil, so much abuse and hurt, so much killing, collectively at least in the human race we seem so very messed up. All asleep for the most part and causing a lot of harm to ourselves and others. Out of balance. Nature and the planet and animals all seem to operate beautifully and harmoniously but we humans with our so called advanced minds seem to be mostly unhappy, striving, searching, seeking and harming. With little pockets of fun and joy and yes examples of beauty and courage etc. I don’t understand it at all. And I guess thats ok.

Getting to personal responsibility , I know that from reading so many conversations here that at the end the consensus is always there is no personal responsibility because there is no illusionary I , that I never existed and no control of actions and thoughts so this being the case how could there be personal responsibility. But you asked me what I think and to me, not having really seen through this individual self being completely a made up story, I dont resonate with this really. There is a feeling that lining up with the flow, accepting what is, not resisting life and trusting in this flow, universe, God, intelligence , whatever we want to call it, is optimal. So responsibility I don’t agree with in the traditional sense, we are all only operating according to his/her conditioning so in that sense aren’t responsible for our actions or anything else. But it seems to me, that a different kind of responsibility can occur when one gets a glimpse of the mystery or a respect let’s say for it, and then the desire is there to harmonize actions and thoughts with what is more life affirming somehow. I recently listened to Rupert Spira where someone asked him about personal responsibility which he was saying we don’t have. Of course , since we know we are not in control of anything , how can we have any personal responsibility ? And that seems to lead one to always be fearful that if this were realised or true, then how would one act, would one not be irresponsible etc etc?

In answer to this, he then gave the extreme example of Hitler where his acts of evil , who he was and what he did arose because of the deep feeling of being a separate self. (I guess we could say this exists too in fundamentalism of all kinds and even the great polarization we find in the world today)....He then goes on to say that it’s the apparent presence of the separate self which makes us behave in irresponsible ways . That line is interesting to me. When that sense of separation goes, we dont find ourselves going around trashing people and behaving in unkind, harmful, irresponsible ways, our behavior is then in line with the totality and serves the totality. What are your thoughts on this?

So this totality he speaks of I think is what resonates with me and what I was trying to explain in my previous paragraphs about the meaning /non-meaning of life and also about personal responsibility. And i know it defeats the very purpose for the little me to be trying to line up with this totality or whatever , i see that its impossible.

It does seem to me that problems come up when we choose to believe in this limited illusionary self. Can you give me some input then into why if the self is apparent, made up, all the pain and suffering and damage that seems to be caused by it happens. If an innocent child is hurt deeply by a damaged adult, how are all these illusionary selves causing so much real damage, this is where I get to feeling overwhelmed and distressed about it all. It’s all a play on opposites yet one of the realizations appears to be that we are all one. That everything is happening as it should? Yet so much destruction? Is it that until this is seen, much harm can occur? Confusing.

Ok, i think thats is for now, I have no idea whether I have gone in the direction you wanted.

hope your journey home was safe and sound and you have settled back

Looking forward to hearing from you

Love
DIana

Good evening Diana,

hope your journey home was safe and sound and you have settled back

Yes, back home and now have a keyboard to use.

and am probably wrong with any conjecture I give,

Have you considered that right and wrong are cult(urally) imposed concepts ?

but I truly think there is being, existence, order and completeness

Maybe, maybe not. Yes, beyond comprehension. A good one for the grab bag of mysteries.
Which brings me to the subject of a relationship with stories.
Oh, and this ties in with the concept of 'Truth'.
Give me a rant on Truth before you read further.

the one thing I know more of is how much I don’t know.

Good one! This is the first tenant of wisdom.
So can you extend this to say that all of what we think we know, is in fact beliefs ?
Certainly, to navigate daily life, we have to behave AS IF we know things. ..but can we also have a belief that it might not be so ?

a part of my conditioning believes that there should be going towards a lining up with something bigger and more divine and wiser than our small selves to find our true purpose on earth etc and fulfill it, to be kinder and gentler with ourselves and the planet and help leave it a little better than when we came. But I see that thats all a story

A perfect example of a story that we 'should' believe.
Beliefs have consequences.

That somehow things go better when we are able to let this flow of life be, rather than trying (unsuccessfully anyway) to control things. That there is intelligence in this natural energy which is clear in nature, and that there is an order, that its not chaotic and random. I feel that ITS inherent qualities are benevolence and goodness and love. But you might say thats all just a story too and I guess it is.

Another 'good' story.
i must say at this point, that not only do you exhibit many characteristics of wisdom, but i have yet to see only one thing that tells me that you are not awake. That you are not liberated from the delusions that keep people 'asleep'.
Can you guess what that one thing is ?

But it is hard to understand that, if everything is one and if life is just happening, then why is there so much of what seems wrong and evil, so much abuse and hurt, so much killing, collectively at least in the human race we seem so very messed up.

Yes, it does seem that way. Statistically, there has been great improvement since the beginning of recorded history.
Even over the last few years we have less crime and accidental deaths or injuries. Yet if we believe perception it is worse than ever.
The best story that i have been able to come up with says that all of the wrong in the world can be equated to a healing crisis in the human organism.
For example when we pick up a stomach bug, in order to eliminate the body will get temperature and vomiting and diarrhea.
This is an attempt to get back to good health.
Stupidly (my story) in our health systems we treat the symptoms and ignore the cause, and it seems that we are doing the same with our societal ills.
This is one reason why i guide. As you say, being asleep is the main cause of these ills. (again it is my story)

He then goes on to say that it’s the apparent presence of the separate self which makes us behave in irresponsible ways . That line is interesting to me. When that sense of separation goes, we dont find ourselves going around trashing people and behaving in unkind, harmful, irresponsible ways, our behavior is then in line with the totality and serves the totality. What are your thoughts on this?

At a superficial level, i totally agree.
i do however see the sense of separation and the delusion of a separate self as symptoms rather than the root cause.
It is not recognizing concepts as ideas. As stories, that leads to these symptoms, and the consequences of them.
We have elevated ideas to a status that they don't deserve in our education system. We believe information to be knowledge.
We ignore what IS, in favor of what should be. (..gets down of soapbox before getting carried away.)

how are all these illusionary selves causing so much real damage,

i have used the work consequences several time so far, but cause and effect are also illusions. The best story that i can come up with is that of conditions. For anything to happen, the necessary conditions must be present. ..and for each of those conditions to be present, there are conditions.
Now, stay with me; if i could take a snapshot of the state of the world, or the state of my circumstances, let's say me here in bed, typing on my old laptop that Apple just replaced the screen on, for free. That if i hadn't read somewhere that they would do this if the damage was caused by keys impacting on the screen when the lid was closed. If i wasn't going overseas and could do without it for the time it took to repair. That if my son, who gave me the laptop, wasn't willing to take it to the Apple store. That if the job wasn't done before i returned. That if my son hadn't picked it up before i returned. That if the person doing the repair hadn't taken time off work because of illness. Oh, i could go on forever. Literally forever. i could go back to if one of my ancestors was sterile, that i wouldn't even be here.
It's not a long shot to say that if any one condition that ever happened in the world since the beginning of existence (and maybe even before that), that if any condition was different, then things would be different now.
So how can separation be anything more than another concept ?
Yet it is the belief in concepts that seem to have consequences. ..or more accurately, setup conditions.

love love

vince