Guide needed

[clearvision]

I would like to request Nina as a guide

[Nina45]

Hello,

This is Nina. Would you like to tall me something about yourself and why you are here?

[clearvision]

I am a 59 yo male.
I am a full time carer for my elderly mother.
I have been a Buddhist for 25 years.
I have been reading about Emptiness for a while and discussing the idea with friends.
I do not have a regular meditation practice though I do try to be mindful most of the time.
I am a reasonably happy, positive and friendly person though my self consciousness does limit my enjoyment of life.
I have a number of friends working with the LU program.
I would like to experience liberation from the fetters particularly Sense Desire and Ill Will.
I had one session with Xain on Skype where he led me through some exercises related to the first 3 fetters.
Just one session with him radically improved my experience of life in that I now engage more authentically with others.
He recommended you as a guide.
Do you offer LU on Skype

[Nina45]

Hi!

Pleased to hear from you. What do I call you?

I am so pleased that Xain's session helped. I do Skype sometimes but only as part of a written process. Are you happy to write a bit and see how it goes?

We don't have yo write much to each other - just a few lines every day.

Would you be OK with that?

Best wishes

Nina

[clearvision]

Hi

You can call me Clive.

Yes, I’m happy with your proposal.

Clive

[Nina45]

Hello Clive!

Thank you for your reply.

It would be great if you could describe to me the experience of 'the self' or 'you'.

What do you think 'the self' is?
Has it got thoughts?
Has it got feelings?
Where is the self, exactly?
Does it feel like there is a 'you' located somewhere?

Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[clearvision]

Hi Nina

It would be great if you could describe to me the experience of 'the self' or 'you'.

1 What do you think 'the self' is?
2 Has it got thoughts?
3 Has it got feelings?
4 Where is the self, exactly?
5 Does it feel like there is a 'you' located somewhere?

1 The self looks after me like a friend or parent. It provides a managerial. organisational and protective function.
It is most in evidence when I feel threatened, isolated or uncertain.

2 The Self stimulates thought to educate itself, keep itself company and comfort itself.

3 The Self can feel happy or hurt, grateful or resentful. included or excluded.

4 In Buddhist terms the Self is in Consciousness which envelops Form, Feelings, Perceptions and Volitions.
The Self/ Consciousness can be found in the other factors and yet also be detached from them (observing them).

5 If I am anywhere I am in my consciousness.
My consciousness has an identity and a personality.
However when I'm 'in the moment' I disappear in a spontaneous response to life, bliss and rapture.

I am hoping that by being in the moment more, in the flow, I can allow my Self to evaporate, when I have more faith and trust in the universe/ other people protecting me.

Best wishes

Clive

[Nina45]

Hi Clive,

This is the second discourse in the Pali Canon:

"Form, ... feeling, ... perception, ... [mental] fabrications, ... consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'...


Which is very interesting. Of course, was was meant by consciousness 2,000 years ago and how we have translated the pali word is another question. However, there is an interesting bit of Direct Pointing here:

is it possible to choose how consciousness is?
Is it possible to reject one bit of consciousness in favour of another?
Is it possible to be in charge of consciousness?
Is it possible to drive consciousness forward?
Does consciousness protect in any way?
Does consciousness organise things in a satisfactory way?

Very best wishes

Nina

[clearvision]

Hi Nina

is it possible to choose how consciousness is?
Is it possible to reject one bit of consciousness in favour of another?
Is it possible to be in charge of consciousness?
Is it possible to drive consciousness forward?
Does consciousness protect in any way?
Does consciousness organise things in a satisfactory way?

It has suited me to believe that my consciousness is my self.
It would appear from your quote from the Pali canon that this is not the case.
In terms of controlling my subjective experience am I not able to influence the tone of my consciousness by choosing a propitious environment to live in and by living morally?

For the purpose of this exercise I read your mail with some excitement in that it suggests I can liberate my consciousness from my Will and just enjoy experiencing its playful/ intelligent nature.

There is a slight fear though that if my inner (and outer) universe is not subject to my Will/ control then where will life lead me?

If I live according to Eros/ Agape then surely I can influence the course/ quality of my life or is that even too deterministic?

But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease.

Is the Buddha not being somewhat bleak and pessimistic here since a consciousness not under our tight control (or imagined control) may lend itself to experiencing subjectivity with greater ease?
(To what extent is subjectivity still experienced once liberation is attained?)

Though I get the Buddha's point that we attempt to exert control over our consciousness in order to maximise positive outcomes and minimise negative outcomes.

I believe that an element of control over my consciousness has been made possible by mental labelling and categorising, by subjecting my consciousness to a type of Windows Software. This has allowed me to think more efficiently and possibly even given me a sense of infallibility and even immortality.

However it makes me a bit of an automaton. I want to feel more organic, more alive!

Best wishes

Clive

[Nina45]

Hi Clive,

The way this process works is that I bat what is said back at you in a way that points at the gateless gate. So philosophical discussions are not entered into because they are thought...... As the guide I walk along a path with you in the hope the illusion of the self is seen through Direct Experience.

In terms of controlling my subjective experience am I not able to influence the tone of my consciousness by choosing a propitious environment to live in and by living morally?

Possibly maybe. But for the purposes of this conversation the about statement is 'story'. It happens in thought.

Direct experience is
Sound
Colour
Smell
Taste
Sensation
And the experience of thought happening (not the story thought tells)

When a pointer is given, it is important to LOOK at Direct Experience for the answer.

There is a slight fear though that if my inner (and outer) universe is not subject to my Will/ control then where will life lead me?

Beautifully explained! This is a very common fear. But there never has been a 'you' so in some ways nothing will change. This process is about seeing there never has been a you. Nothing is taken away - the illusion that is no enchanting and believed in is pointed to again and again.

It is all very simple: there never has been a 'you'.

All there is and all there ever had been is sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation all overlaid with thoughts. The thoughts tell the story of a 'you' in charge, driving the operation.

How does it feel to read this?

Are there any other feelings that arise? Thoughts? Fears? Doubts.

Very best wishes

Nina

[clearvision]

Hi Nina

It is all very simple: there never has been a 'you'.

All there is and all there ever had been is sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation all overlaid with thoughts. The thoughts tell the story of a 'you' in charge, driving the operation.

How does it feel to read this?
[/quote


I feel relieved that there will be an end to creating stories and philosophising.

An end to me.

Let’s go on.

Best wishes

Clive

[Nina45]

Hi Clive,

Before we go on, what are you expecting to happen through this process? It is really good to be clear about this because expectations can be a bit of a barrier.

Nina

[clearvision]

Hi Nina

Hi Clive,

Before we go on, what are you expecting to happen through this process? It is really good to be clear about this because expectations can be a bit of a barrier.

Nina

I want to live more in my senses instead of being lost in my thoughts and fantasies a lot of the time.
I wish to be more in tune with others and spend more time with them rather than being alone most of the time.
I want to be attracted to the outer world more and be able to see more beauty there than I do.
I want to feel more alive. Happier.

Best wishes

Clive

[Nina45]

Hi Clive!

Some of your expectations may be realistic but I can't promise anything. Certainly thought may stop being so convincing.

Let's start by looking at thought.

Is it possible to see where thought comes from?
Where it originates?

Is it possible to see where thought goes to?

Is it possible to predict which thought will come next?

Is it possible to pick and choose nice thoughts from a range of thoughts?

Have a look at thought and see what is possible to know in direct experience.

Best wishes

Nina

[clearvision]

Hi Nina

Is it possible to see where thought comes from? Where it originates?

It is not possible to see where thought originates.

Is it possible to see where thought goes to?

It is not possible to see where thought goes to.

Is it possible to predict which thought comes next?

No it is not possible to predict which thought comes next.

Is it possible to choose nice thoughts from a range of thoughts?

Thoughts arise spontaneously one by one and there is no catalogue to view them in and choose before they arise.
However once a range of thoughts has arisen I can choose to think of the most pleasant amongst them.
But will this be indulging in an imaginary reality when the purpose of LU is to live in a spontaneous relationship to life and thoughts?

Best wishes

Clive