The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That what we believe and identify as the self is not the self. What we truly are cannot be objectified, and to identify it with anything in manifestation is to be deluded. ,,................................

What are you looking for at LU?
I've never had an awakening experience. I understand some of the theory, but it doesn't "feel real".,............................................................. ........... ....................

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hopefully an awakening! Really, I would like an end to seeking. I've tried simply giving and stopping that way, but its like an addiction..................... ...................... .......... .....

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Started in Zen. Experienced in zazen, and other forms of meditation. Listened to many teachers such as Rupert Spira, Kyle Hoobin, Mooji, etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi Jimbo50USA,

My name is Leya and I'd be happy to be your guide if you wish. If you'd like us to go forward I will post guidelines later, for now it would be good if you learn the quote function which I shall demonstrate here;

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hopefully an awakening! Really, I would like an end to seeking. I've tried simply giving and stopping that way, but its like an addiction..................... ...................... .......... .....

I appreciate the clarity in your expectations and so I'd like you to hold both your hands out, closed. In one hand is 'an awakening experience' and in the other is 'the end of seeking'. Feel them. Which one do you feel the stronger desire for, if we could magically grant it, which would it be?

If you wish to go ahead with me I ask that, for now, you put aside anything you've read, seen, heard, believed and that we work in the raw experience of the here and now.

Is there a name you would like me to call you or do you wish to stick with Jimbo50USA?

Regards,

Leya

Hi Leya, you can call me Jim. I will abide by the guidelines you set, as I want to give this an honest and authentic effort.

You asked, "

Which one do you feel the stronger desire for, if we could magically grant it, which would it be?

I would have to say an awakening, because the end of seeking without that would be meaningless.

Regards, Jim

Hey Jim, just sent you a PM - if you could check. [click Private messages above the Search box.]

Cheers,
John

Hi John,

I got your message, and I'm ready to proceed whenever you are!

Regards, Jim

Hey Jim,

Great. Ok, reading your introduction, I see you have some zazen skills, which is excellent, as we're going to be exploring the gap between perceived experience and concepts - across a range of domains.

Let's start with some object: could be a carrot, or a pen, or a cup.
Take a cup for example, and place it nearby.

Experience it for a minute.

We tend not to notice, because it happens effortlessly, that the concept/label 'cup' and all that comes with it, is woven in to the experience of an object of this shape.

Ok, so, our job is to start to separate out the threads of experience.

Looking at this object.
Notice the shape.
Notice the colour.
Notice the bounds of what can be seen.

Notice those aspects that you can't see - like inside, or the far side of the object.

Ponder a moment on the side unseen.

Share any experiences of that.

Many thanks!
John

Hi John,

Considering the cup from direct experience, I would have to say there is no other side got the cup. Front and back make no sense either. Ultimately, there is no cup either, no separate object, by I may be going beyond the boundaries of this exercise.

What struck me with this was how much the world we deal with in any given moment of now is just thoughts. Like that cup. The back side of the cup, the side unseen, exists only in assumptions, in thoughts, memory.

I've been reading many of the articles and dialogues on this site. No be noticed that many people go through negative emotions while doing this work, including fear.

I feel none of this. I don't understand why this process produces such negativity for so many (at least until they awaken). If anything, this causes me nothing but happiness and a kind f excited anticipation! After reading all those dialogues, I kind of feel like a weirdo now, like the oddball of the group!

Hope this makes sense, Jim

Considering the cup from direct experience, I would have to say there is no other side got the cup. Front and back make no sense either. Ultimately, there is no cup either, no separate object, by I may be going beyond the boundaries of this exercise.

Cool.

What struck me with this was how much the world we deal with in any given moment of now is just thoughts. Like that cup. The back side of the cup, the side unseen, exists only in assumptions, in thoughts, memory.

Well, yep, thinking is a big part of the deal, thank god, or we'd just sit here dribbling. :D

I've been reading many of the articles and dialogues on this site. No be noticed that many people go through negative emotions while doing this work, including fear.

Takes all sorts. :)

I feel none of this. I don't understand why this process produces such negativity for so many (at least until they awaken). If anything, this causes me nothing but happiness and a kind f excited anticipation! After reading all those dialogues, I kind of feel like a weirdo now, like the oddball of the group!

Well, some folk have ideas about what its about - like, I won't exist - and then scare themselves silly.

Ok, now with the cup still there, consider the word: CUP.

See how its become associated with the object.
Experience that association between the object and the symbol CUP.

Now, look at the symbol CUP as an object in its own right. Imagine the letters backwards, upside down, mirror-reflected, shimmering, fading, red, yellow, white.

Notice that the squiggles CUP are squiggles and something else happens to make the meaning 'cup'.

See if you can see the symbol CUP as squiggles without meaning, and then bring the meaning back.
Switch between it having meaning, and none.

Share any discoveries.

Best wishes,
John

After some difficulty, I was finally about to see "cup" as meaningless lines. The only part of this that really struck me was how powerful the interpretative part of our mind is! And seemingly so automatic! My take away from this is that its much more helpful to "see through" the meaning assigned to it by thought, rather than forcefully try to reverse the interpretative process. Such an attempt, even with a simple, single word took literally hours (with breaks) for its meaning to finally go away, and even then, the effect was only temporary, and resulted in a headache. I won't be trying such a thing anymore. There was no benefit in doing so.

Is there anyone here who can help me? Or am I just wasting my time?

Never mind. I'm done with this. I wasn't looking for an altered state of consciousness. I'm done here.