The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no real self in this being. Life is a series of processes, of thoughts and feelings arising and passing. I know this intellectually, but wish to have a deeper knowing of this.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm seeking guidance to fully and deeply know that there is no ultimate unchanging self. An opportunity to release long held beliefs that perpetuate the habits of a lifetime. This will hopefully allow more clarity and freedom around the inevitable ups and downs of life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope for a guided opportunity to explore what is right now. For the guide to be kind but strongly encouraging to allow clear seeing of the reality that there is no seperate self. I anticipate being clear and honest about current experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've meditated for 6 years & am a member of a Buddhist spiritual community. I've experienced some release of beliefs and attachments and the spaciousness, lightness and clear seeing this produces. I'm grateful for the opportunity to release more beliefs, and ultimately, if appropriate, help others do the same.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?:10

Hi Willow,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the ‘separate self’. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.

Love, Kay

Hi Kay

Thanks for your response. Yes, I'd be delighted if you'd be my guide. Yes I've read the disclaimer and FAQs.

Just one query, as someone not very familiar with forums, how public are our communications?

With kind regards
Willowherb

Hi Willow,

This forum is a public forum so anyone coming to the forum can read the threads.

Thankyou for confirming that you have read the disclaimer and FAQ's.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions in blue text and to answer them individually as well please...and remember to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay
xx

Thanks Kay

I really appreciate you setting out clear parameters.

Here goes on the questions:

How will life change?

Life will not dramatically change. The same type of daily events will happen. I'll continue to eat, sleep, smell, taste, touch, in the same way

How will you change?

I'll take things less personally as I go through the ups and downs of everyday life. I'll hopefully be slightly less attached to outcomes and a little more open and relaxed

What will be different?

Just my attitude to life I guess. Habitual tensions will gently fade as there is no self to reference them to.

What is missing?

It doesn't feel like anything is missing particularly. Its more that I've had a glimpse of how much stuff I didn't know I was carrying until I put it down recently (e.g. attachment to food, attachment to tea as an emotional crutch) that I know there are more beliefs that that I can put down. It appears that all these beliefs are referencing 'me', so it seems that dropping the 'me' idea may release many beliefs

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I'd like to really 'know' that there is no self. I believe I understand the concept clearly. I've been reading the gate less gate, and in meditation the other day I saw how a tree is just a system with inputs and outputs - not choosing which leaf to grow where, just responding to conditions/stimuli, and actually so is the bird in the branches and the dog under the tree, and so is this being, and I laughed out loud at how simple it all is.

However in the following few days, its hard to believe it when I'm planning my day, or responding to a complex issue at work (which on reflection are just complex conditions and stimuli). It feels that there is some pride around who I am , what I have achieved, that I'm finding hard to let go. Also some fear about who I will be without a self. which is daft, because there never was one, but those are the feelings.

when asking myself 'is there a self?', A thought pops up and says 'here I am' , and having generally been quite a cognitive person and someone who thinks their way through things, I habitually find it difficult not to believe the I thoughts - I believe them, then, sometimes, notice that I have.

Writing this there is realisation that I reference 'me' as this body system.

Sorry, that rambled a bit, but yes, to clearly 'know' there is no self




Thank you for taking the time to help me explore this.
Kind regards
Willowherb

Hey Willow,

You don’t have to put your responses in blue text. I put the questions I want you to respond to in blue text, just so you know what I would like for you to LOOK at and answer.

These questions were about becoming aware of your expectations to what realising there is no separate self might look like. Expectations are a hindrance as they posit an idea of how life etc will/should/ look once the realisation has happened and what the realisation itself will look like and bring. Let me know what appears for you when you read my responses…ie fear, anger, resistance etc.

How will life change?

Life will not dramatically change. The same type of daily events will happen. I'll continue to eat, sleep, smell, taste, touch, in the same way

Life just lifes and always has. There is no separate person that is living a life or that is controlling life.

How will you change?

I'll take things less personally as I go through the ups and downs of everyday life. I'll hopefully be slightly less attached to outcomes and a little more open and relaxed

There has never been a ‘you’ to be any of these things.

What will be different?

Just my attitude to life I guess. Habitual tensions will gently fade as there is no self to reference them to.

There has never been a ‘self’ to reference them to. There are thoughts that appear that point to actual experience with the story about a self referencing person, but thought knows nothing. The face value of thought is actual experience, but the content of thought, in and of itself contains no experience.

What is missing?

It doesn't feel like anything is missing particularly. Its more that I've had a glimpse of how much stuff I didn't know I was carrying until I put it down recently (e.g. attachment to food, attachment to tea as an emotional crutch) that I know there are more beliefs that that I can put down. It appears that all these beliefs are referencing 'me', so it seems that dropping the 'me' idea may release many beliefs

This exploration is about ‘unlearning’, it’s about seeing what you are not and in so doing, yes, beliefs are seen for what they are. However, the realisation of there being no separate self is just a beginning and not an ending. Consistent and constant LOOKING is something that will need to continue to happen once the realisation has occurred, as there will be periods of doubt and confusion.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

However in the following few days, its hard to believe it when I'm planning my day, or responding to a complex issue at work (which on reflection are just complex conditions and stimuli). It feels that there is some pride around who I am , what I have achieved, that I'm finding hard to let go. Also some fear about who I will be without a self. which is daft, because there never was one, but those are the feelings.

There is no cause and effect. Cause and effect is the belief in separation and the belief in time. We will be looking at these concepts later on.

The idea of ‘fear’ will appear. Fear of seeing, of not seeing, of disappearing etc. Whenever fear, resistance or any emotion appears….let me know so that we can look at it together.

when asking myself 'is there a self?', A thought pops up and says 'here I am' , and having generally been quite a cognitive person and someone who thinks their way through things, I habitually find it difficult not to believe the I thoughts - I believe them, then, sometimes, notice that I have. Writing this there is realisation that I reference 'me' as this body system.

This is good to be aware of. We will be looking at the nature of thought and the body as well. Who are you asking the question “is there a self”? There is no person to be asking this question and expecting a valid answer. Thought knows nothing about an illusory self or what actually IS! Thought itself is just an appearance as is colour, smell, taste, sensation and sound.

So let's have a look at what actual experience is.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?


Love, Kay
xx

Thanks Kay, I'll post this evening.

Hi Kay

Thanks for your responses. There is a slight tension/resistance about there not being any control of life (!) but otherwise your answers sat quite comfortably.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

When looking at the apple on screen there is colour and thought.

When looking at a real apple there is colour smell and thoughts.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

the on screen apple is just an idea represented by colour, there is no apple in experience.

The real apple is right here. There is touch, smell, thought, colour. But these are all clues my mind sticks together. Nothing apart from my interpretation of them makes it apple. Apple is a label for this set of experiences.

However, is an apple actually known?

On the one hand - yes! its right here, but also

No because apple is an idea or a label for this set of experiences. there are sense inputs pointing to apple. But nothing makes it have to have that label. I've learnt to call it that during my education.

thanks

Hey Willow,

Lovely LOOKING!

There is a slight tension/resistance about there not being any control of life (!) but otherwise your answers sat quite comfortably.

We will look at control a little later on and we will look at the fear/resistance when it arises.

However, is an apple actually known?

On the one hand - yes! its right here, but also

No because apple is an idea or a label for this set of experiences. there are sense inputs pointing to apple. But nothing makes it have to have that label. I've learnt to call it that during my education.

Yes, exactly...so colour, smell, taste, sensation and even sound appear when 'eating an apple' which though then labels 'apple' and further thoughts appear about what an apple is etc.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

The colour labelled 'cup' simply= colour
The smell labelled 'coffee', simply = smell,
The sensation labelled 'warmth' (of the coffee cup), simply = sensation.
The taste labelled 'coffee', simply = taste
The sound labelled 'tinkling' (spoon stirring the coffee), simply = sound
Thoughts ABOUT cup, coffee, spoon, making a cup of coffee and drinking the coffee etc, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Hi Kay

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

This exercise was fun, it seemed to simplify the way I interpreted the world - rather than constant reflecting/working out thoughts, some of the thoughts became e.g. 'ooh, sound', before I'd drift of into thought and then return. Seemed to add emphasis to the five physical senses so that I was experiencing the physical sense information more directly, rather than via thoughts, which is often the case in everyday life.

For example - washing up: sensations, colours, thoughts, then drifted off into thought. Came back to sensations, colours, thoughts,taste (from recent meal), eventually noticed sounds, more thoughts, drifting off into thought again.
The sounds were of voices in a different room, and this type of noticing meant I was just noticing sound rather than getting carried away in analysing what was being said/expressed/needed.

Eating dinner - tastes, smells, sounds, thoughts, sensations, thoughts, drifted off into thought. When speaking with others attention just went to what they/I were saying - which I now realise means thoughts.

Hey Willow,

Glad you had fun with that experiment. So just continue doing it for the next few days.

For example - washing up: sensations, colours, thoughts, then drifted off into thought. Came back to sensations, colours, thoughts,taste (from recent meal), eventually noticed sounds, more thoughts, drifting off into thought again.
The sounds were of voices in a different room, and this type of noticing meant I was just noticing sound rather than getting carried away in analysing what was being said/expressed/needed.

When 'drifting off into thought' happens...all that is happening there, is that you are aware of thought. Thought itself is actual experience but the content of thought is 'empty'. In other words, actual experience is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. If thoughts/words contained experience then you could taste the word 'sweet', smell the word 'rose' and hear the word 'thunder'.

Eating dinner - tastes, smells, sounds, thoughts, sensations, thoughts, drifted off into thought. When speaking with others attention just went to what they/I were saying - which I now realise means thoughts.

Yes, lovely!

So, let's have a closer look at the nature of thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from and going to? Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Love, Kay
xx

Hi Kay

Thanks for the feedback about thoughts. Makes sense.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I can choose to repeat words in my head, like a mantra or an instruction for a short while, but then other random thoughts pop up too. But generally when I'm not trying to think things, random thoughts just appear.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, any other thoughts appear afterwards. The initial thought has already happened

Where are they coming from and going to? Can you predict your next thought?

Sometimes a stimuli like a sound/smell/memory will spark thought. Sometimes they seem random. Sometimes they are habitual stories, but can't see anything particularly starting them.
Doesn't feel like they go anywhere - they just come and go.
No, can't predict the next thought.

Can you push away any thought?

No, its a bit like the don't think of elephants thing. If I try to push away a story its lurking near by and comes back soon. I can distract my self, by actively concentrating on body sensations or a song, sometimes. Individual thoughts have already happened by time I am responding to them.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

I wish! No the negative ones are usually strongest. And the thoughts have already occurred, so no selection is possible. No, can't stop in the middle, there is strong momentum. Only breaks off when distracted by another stimuli.

Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No. the thoughts come up uninvited.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can choose to recite a mantra/poem, or follow a series/pattern in my head, but I'm guessing this is slightly different. I suppose this is just a pattern following the initial random thought!
Everyday thoughts I don't choose at the time. The patterns of thoughts change over time with practicing the dharma, and different company or moods or energy levels.
I can choose to focus on a particular topic, but that doesn't mean I'm specifically choosing my thoughts.

Is it possible to control any thoughts? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It is not possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, or to control them. It's not possible to prevent the thought I occurring, I just pops up in thoughts - which my brain says sounds mad! but thats just another thought!

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

It does feel that sometimes follow a train of thought to work something out, but yes, this is just labelling after the fact. I like to think I planned out where to go tomorrow, but actually I had a few random thoughts, looked it up on the internet to find a few facts, random thoughts, gut feel (sensation), decision made (also a thought!). Whilst thoughts of other topics came and went during that time.

I know this is a bit theoretical , but is anything like this: A thought can be a condition for another thought, but there is no specific thought that follows another. Each thought occurs from whatever conditions are around at the time, one of the conditions may be a previous thought, or habitual patterns of thought, but there are so many other conditions that it is impossible to predict what thought will pop up or when.

Feels like there's a lot to see here, the thoughts about thoughts are tricksy!

Hi Willow,

Yes, thoughts are tricky...that is why we spend some time looking at the nature of thought.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I can choose to repeat words in my head, like a mantra or an instruction for a short while, but then other random thoughts pop up too. But generally when I'm not trying to think things, random thoughts just appear.

And can you describe to me in precise detail how you actually “choose to repeat words”? How do you know what you are going to repeat and where do you go to get the thought that you are going to repeat words like a mantra? Describe where the storage container of thoughts is and what it looks like.

Have another look and see if it is not just another appearing thought that says “I chose to repeat words in my head”.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, any other thoughts appear afterwards. The initial thought has already happened

Yes..exactly! :)

Where are they coming from and going to? Can you predict your next thought?

Sometimes a stimuli like a sound/smell/memory will spark thought. Sometimes they seem random. Sometimes they are habitual stories, but can't see anything particularly starting them. Doesn't feel like they go anywhere - they just come and go.No, can't predict the next thought.

And how is it known that a stimuli sparks a thought….because a thought said so?

Can you push away any thought?

No, its a bit like the don't think of elephants thing. If I try to push away a story its lurking near by and comes back soon. I can distract my self, by actively concentrating on body sensations or a song, sometimes. Individual thoughts have already happened by time I am responding to them.

Hmm and what exactly is “I can distract myself by actively concentrating on body sensations or a song, sometimes”? Is it a thought, a sensation, a smell, a taste, a colour, a sound?

Distraction seems to be happening…but have a look to see if the thought “I” could actively distract anything!

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can choose to recite a mantra/poem, or follow a series/pattern in my head, but I'm guessing this is slightly different. I suppose this is just a pattern following the initial random thought!

And how it is known that you “can choose to recite a mantra/poem”? How do you choose for that thought to appear and how do you got about find the mantra/poem that is being recited?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

It does feel that sometimes follow a train of thought to work something out, but yes, this is just labelling after the fact. I like to think I planned out where to go tomorrow, but actually I had a few random thoughts, looked it up on the internet to find a few facts, random thoughts, gut feel (sensation), decision made (also a thought!). Whilst thoughts of other topics came and went during that time.

Lovely!

I know this is a bit theoretical , but is anything like this: A thought can be a condition for another thought, but there is no specific thought that follows another. Each thought occurs from whatever conditions are around at the time, one of the conditions may be a previous thought, or habitual patterns of thought, but there are so many other conditions that it is impossible to predict what thought will pop up or when.

What is it exactly that makes/gives meaning to a thought? When a thought appears what does it actually point to? Does it point to anything else other than more thought?

Love, Kay
xx

Hi Kay

And can you describe to me in precise detail how you actually “choose to repeat words”? How do you know what you are going to repeat and where do you go to get the thought that you are going to repeat words like a mantra? Describe where the storage container of thoughts is and what it looks like.

Have another look and see if it is not just another appearing thought that says “I chose to repeat words in my head”.

Darn it, it is just another thought! e.g. 'I know, I'll recite a mantra' 'Hm which one' 'I like that one that starts Om, how does it go?' 'Om mani...' These are all just thoughts.

There were beliefs in there about memories, but I guess these are just thoughts too, as they are different each time they are remembered, and vary depending on mood when we recall them. Ok, got it - just thoughts! No thought/memory container!

And how is it known that a stimuli sparks a thought….because a thought said so?

Yes a thought said it!
eg. sound (bird song), sensation (interest), thought (what bird is that?)
sensation (shoulder pain), thought (my shoulders hurt, I must be tense)
sound (unknown bang), sensation (tensing), thought (whats that?)
It seems a linear connection from the physical sense experience to the thought, but is it that the thought occurs after the sensation, but not because of it?

Hmm and what exactly is “I can distract myself by actively concentrating on body sensations or a song, sometimes”? Is it a thought, a sensation, a smell, a taste, a colour, a sound?

Distraction seems to be happening…but have a look to see if the thought “I” could actively distract anything!

eg. all thoughts: 'I'm looking at the tree' 'I don't want to think about trees' 'I'll close my eyes and thinks about nursery rhymes' 'Old macdonald...' 'tree!' at the same time as singing thought.
D'oh! Its all just thoughts thinking about thoughts!
There is no 'I'. there are thoughts about 'I' but they don't go any where but in circles!

And how it is known that you “can choose to recite a mantra/poem”? How do you choose for that thought to appear and how do you got about find the mantra/poem that is being recited?

A thought says so! I think about it - see example for first of todays questions :o) Thoughts do all these things

What is it exactly that makes/gives meaning to a thought? When a thought appears what does it actually point to? Does it point to anything else other than more thought?

A thought seems to have meaning, because there is a thought that they are true, its the believing in them that gives them meaning.

beliefs, memories, planning, future predicting, working out how to do stuff - all just thoughts.

There's a lurking thought that thoughts can cause actions ( yes I spotted the thought), but yesterday an action was decided more on sensation, then labelled as thought after the fact. So a belief in thoughts leading to action is surely just another thought! Is it really true that decisions are made on sensations? Yes, cos this actually means that actions are based on sensations, and thats totally normal - when a body is cold it shivers.

thanks for the questions
Best wishes

Hey Willow....you are doing some great LOOKING! Thank you :)

There were beliefs in there about memories, but I guess these are just thoughts too, as they are different each time they are remembered, and vary depending on mood when we recall them. Ok, got it - just thoughts! No thought/memory container!

Yes….great LOOKING. ‘Memory’ is a conceptual framework that suggests there is a storage system from where thoughts and images are retrieved!
However, when are those seeming ‘memories’ actually appearing?

It seems a linear connection from the physical sense experience to the thought, but is it that the thought occurs after the sensation, but not because of it?

Does a thought know anything about a sensation?
Does a sensation know anything about a thought?

For something to cause something else points to separation. There are no separate things and there is no time. We will look at time/memory a little later.

Distraction seems to be happening…but have a look to see if the thought “I” could actively distract anything!

eg. all thoughts: 'I'm looking at the tree' 'I don't want to think about trees' 'I'll close my eyes and thinks about nursery rhymes' 'Old macdonald...' 'tree!' at the same time as singing thought.
D'oh! Its all just thoughts thinking about thoughts!

Lol, yes….just more thoughts!

There is no 'I'. there are thoughts about 'I' but they don't go any where but in circles!

YES! There are thoughts ABOUT an “I”, but the thought “I” only actually points to the actual experience of thought.

There's a lurking thought that thoughts can cause actions ( yes I spotted the thought), but yesterday an action was decided more on sensation, then labelled as thought after the fact. So a belief in thoughts leading to action is surely just another thought! Is it really true that decisions are made on sensations? Yes, cos this actually means that actions are based on sensations, and thats totally normal - when a body is cold it shivers.

Nice observation….so let’s look at the idea of thought causing an action!

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay
xx