Compelled to see

[hansemd]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I don't understand, really. My experience of a "spiritual nature" have been brief and one of them was knowing that we are all one. That site guided me here. My take on this is that "self" is not real. There is no self. It's all an illusion. There is no "me".

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to be able to see the illusion that is hidden from me now. I am looking for guidance from somebody who has taken this path and found a way through to the realization of no-self. Also, a community of people who are interested in the same "spiritual" path that I am interested in.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Real understanding and knowing escapes me. I would like to be guided by somebody who can give good pointers that would make the illusion visible. Hopefully, guide me to the same place that they have trekked to.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Raised as a Methodist by my parents but that fell apart. I have positive memories about it. It planted a seed. Studied Buddhism for the last 5 years. Meditating somewhat regularly. Inquiry into the "who am I" of Ramana Maharishi has been a driving practice with little results. I had an experience from the no-self.com site that was brief but insightful. My most profound experience was at a seminar where I suddenly knew I was looking at god when I looked at people's eyes. Just amazing. Also, that I WAS love that just poured out of me. Beautiful. That lasted about 6 hours then was gone. I'm not attached to any particular spiritual beliefs

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Petrus]

Hi Hansemd (or shall I call you Hans?),

I will be happy to guide you.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Actually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly.
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Regards, Petrus

[hansemd]

I hope it facilitates an end to separation.

[hansemd]

Oh, and my name is Mark.

[Petrus]

Hi Mark,

I like your 11!

For the record, I asked you to confirm:

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

And for your expectations:

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Or is: "I hope it facilitates an end to separation." your answer to that question?
Please have a moment for this. What do you expect to happen if it will happen?

Where you from Mark? I am from the Netherlands...

Warm Regards,
Petrus

[Petrus]

Hi Mark

Did you see my reply?

Petrus

[hansemd]

I have read all of the above.

[hansemd]

I really have no expectations. I expect to see things differently but what that means who knows. I'll wait and see then I'll know.

[hansemd]

I am from beautiful Vermont, USA.

[Petrus]

Ok Mark, lets start!

I have a set of questions about thoughts. Take your time:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Regards, Petrus

[hansemd]

Where do thoughts come from?
They seem to come out of thin air. From nowhere.

Where are they going?
They mostly just fade away back into thin air and get replaced by even more thoughts. I think they are going back into nowhere.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
I am not able to do that.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No. I can’t find an “I” or where thoughts originate from.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No. It doesn’t appear and I can’t find it. Kind of “ghost like.”

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
It could be. Just illusion.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Not that I can locate. I’ve always believed that is true, though.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
I cannot control those thoughts.

Can you choose what to think?
Yes, for short periods of time otherwise they’re random mostly.

Can you choose what not to think?
No. in fact trying to not think a thought is a sure way to think it.

Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?
The brain seems like it’s where they are “processed”. Probably because I have been taught that my whole life. But not all thoughts emanate from the brain. Many appear from outside the brain (that’s how I’ve always experienced it).

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
It seems like I’m the one thinking thoughts. Do thoughts think me? Meaning that me and the thought are the same? Or that thoughts have reign over me most of the time? Not sure I understand the question.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No. Not that I’m aware of.

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?
It seems to be always present and attached to every thought.

[Petrus]

Hi Mark,

Can you choose what to think?

Yes, for short periods of time otherwise they’re random mostly.

So there is an "I" after all? One that can do things like choosing thoughts?
Please elaborate on this.

Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

The brain seems like it’s where they are “processed”. Probably because I have been taught that my whole life. But not all thoughts emanate from the brain. Many appear from outside the brain (that’s how I’ve always experienced it).

Did you ever see your own brain?

It seems like I’m the one thinking thoughts.

Which "one" you are talking about here?

Do thoughts think me? Meaning that me and the thought are the same?

Maybe I better ask: do thoughts think a me?

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

It seems to be always present and attached to every thought.

Could you have a close look here. Is it really so this I is there every moment.
If you listen to beautiful music is there an I present? Or is there listening music only?
How do you mean "it is attached to every thought?". Isnt that a thought too?

By the way, it is more convenient for me if you use the quote function too in your answers:
Could you try? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Warm regards, Petrus

[hansemd]

So there is an "I" after all? One that can do things like choosing thoughts?
Please elaborate on this.

I don't know what mechanism I use. I can, for example, think a thought about riding in a kayak down the Colorado river and experience that thought. Isn't that choosing a thought? Maybe that's more like creating a thought. Can I choose what thoughts to think. No

Did you ever see your own brain?

I have never seen my own brain.

Which "one" you are talking about here?

I don't know what I was talking about. I can't find a "one" in my searching. Must be like the"I" that i can't find.

Maybe I better ask: do thoughts think a me?

I don't know but it somehow seems that I think thoughts and the thoughts think me both at the same time.

Could you have a close look here. Is it really so this I is there every moment.
If you listen to beautiful music is there an I present? Or is there listening music only?
How do you mean "it is attached to every thought?". Isn't that a thought too?

Definitely not there while listening to music. Actually, it only seems to be there when i get a thought to attach "I" to it. So really the "I" is not there unless i call it up.

I would like to express how grateful I am for your help and guidance. I'm so thankful. Thank you, Petrus.
It's weird that I don't even know how I got to this place where we are now and how did this "there is no "I" " thing became of paramount importance in my life? I don't know. I'm happy I made it to you and look forward to having a successful outcome from this. It's so exciting!

With love,
Mark

[Petrus]

Hi Mark,

Maybe that's more like creating a thought.

Is it possible to create a thought?

Did you ever see your own brain?

I have never seen my own brain.

So is it your brain that is thinking thoughts?

I don't know but it somehow seems that I think thoughts ...

Is there really an I thinking the thoughts?

...and the thoughts think me both at the same time.

I-thoughts exist (thoughts about a me that is...), but do those thoughts refer to something real?

So really the "I" is not there unless i call it up.

Haha, there is no-one to call it up...
But you are right, sometimes out of the blue there is this I-thought.
So what to do about that?
Is there an I to do something about it?

I'm so thankful.

Great!

Here is a little exercise.
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it.
...Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing image?
Was the content of the image real?

Warm regards, Petrus

[hansemd]

Is it possible to create a thought?

Well, it seems like I can create a thought....but Looking at that sentence makes me wonder. If I can't locate "I" how can I say that it's creating thoughts.

So is it your brain that is thinking thoughts?

I can't really say that because I don't know.

Is there really an I thinking the thoughts?

I can't find the origin of my thoughts when I try.

I-thoughts exist (thoughts about a me that is...), but do those thoughts refer to something real?

In that i can't find "I"I would have to say no.

Haha, there is no-one to call it up...
But you are right, sometimes out of the blue there is this I-thought.
So what to do about that?
Is there an I to do something about it?

That is funny. No, there's nothing to be done about it.