The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is nothing here except what is happening. No entity that things appear to or that decides or chooses actions in any way. Oddly enough seeking still happens and there must be something that is not seen clearly.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for freedom. No fireworks necessary. I am also looking to see what the confusion is that seemingly continues to arise. I think maybe being guided in a more personal way may help me see things from a different point of view.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would expect to expose anything that remains unclear about this. I feel that a thorough investigation into this will help unmask the confusion that seems to arise. After reading some other guided conversations, it seems the guides are pretty good at flushing out any untrue beliefs.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Nauseatingly obsessive seeking for the past 2 years. Mostly contemplative in nature. meditation seems pointless.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

Hello there!

Nice to meet you and welcome to Liberation Unleashed! My name is Christina and I can be your guide. Shall I call you dudleydawson or do you prefer another name?

Have you already gotten around to having a closer look at the website? It might be a good idea to read the FAQ and maybe some of the articles to get an idea what LU is and isn't about. Please also get accustomed to the quoting function - it can make this thread easier to follow.

What we will do here is basically to have a conversation that should lead you to see for yourself what the nature of 'self' or 'I' is. To make this happen, I will ask you lots of questions and sometimes give you little tasks to explore. Please reply once a day. This is necessary to get a bit of momentum. Also, please answer from your direct experience as honestly as you can. With 'direct experience' I mean do not theorise, do not tell about concepts or thoughts or ideas, but what you can actually feel, touch, hear, see.

Reading on this path can often lead to getting entangled in ideas and thoughts too much, so please try to set aside all books, blogs, videos about the topic we are dealing with for the time being.

Also, thanks for answering the registration questions. I have some questions in return:

What do you mean by 'I' in your sentence

I am looking for freedom.

?

Nauseatingly obsessive seeking for the past 2 years.

Can you tell me a bit more how this is nauseating? How and why did the seeking become obsessive?

meditation seems pointless.

Not entirely sure if I understand this: How is meditation pointless? What is your experience with meditation?

Looking forward to your answers!

So far,
Christina

Hello,
Thanks for the reply. Will clarify.

What do you mean by 'I' in your sentence

I guess I mean this body/mind.


[quoteCan you tell me a bit more how this is nauseating? How and why did the seeking become obsessive?][/quote]
Figure of speech. by nauseating I mean the amount of time spent thinking/inquiring is extreme. Pretty much all day is spent thinking about this topic. Seeking became this way as a result of a big life change.

Not entirely sure if I understand this: How is meditation pointless? What is your experience with meditation?

I say this because I have seen many "serious meditators" go on for 30+ years and not get any closer to finding what they are looking for. Seems like a way of becoming and also a way of reinforcing the notion that there is someone doing something to get somewhere. I think it can be useful in an observational sense i.e. observing emotions, thoughts etc. but isn't that happening anyway?

Thanks again for offering to help!

Dudley

Hi,

I think I misspoke. When I say "freedom" I mean freedom from identification with thought and concepts. Thanks.

Hello Dudley!

Thank you for the quick reply!

What do you mean by 'I' in your sentence

I guess I mean this body/mind.

Can you point at it with your finger? Where is this 'I'?

by nauseating I mean the amount of time spent thinking/inquiring is extreme. Pretty much all day is spent thinking about this topic. Seeking became this way as a result of a big life change.

Okay. If thinking plays such a huge role in your life, let's start right there. Can you sit down quietly and watch what exactly happens when 'thinking' is going on, please? Where do thoughts come from? Where do thoughts go? Are you those thoughts? Can you control them? If so, how? Please report back from your direct experience of what is going on!

I say this because I have seen many "serious meditators" go on for 30+ years and not get any closer to finding what they are looking for.

Okay. I see your point. Looking for something in the wrong place can be a rather unhelpful habit.

Thanks again for offering to help!

Ah, you're welcome.

So far,
Christina

Hi Again,

here are the answers to your questions.

Can you point at it with your finger? Where is this 'I'?

I cannot point to it. I cannot find a specific location for this I.

Okay. If thinking plays such a huge role in your life, let's start right there. Can you sit down quietly and watch what exactly happens when 'thinking' is going on, please? Where do thoughts come from? Where do thoughts go? Are you those thoughts? Can you control them? If so, how? Please report back from your direct experience of what is going on!

Thoughts seem to just appear out of pretty much nowhere. I am not the thoughts. I know that thought is there/arising. It seems like the thoughts just dissolve back into nowhere/nothing. I cannot control or alter these thoughts. "I" recognized that even the idea of "watching" thoughts is in itself another thought and or a part of the "observed" thought. Is this fair to say? I want to make sure this is seen clearly. Your statement "thinking plays a huge roll in your life" struck a chord somehow. The idea that "I am caught up in thought" appears frequently. It still appears, perhaps energetically, That there is something (me?) here that is aware of all this happening.
I noticed that the content of thought is usually pointing back to an "I" or trying to figure out and explain situations and stimuli and compare & or project scenarios in which they make sense in a personal story about "I". This stuff is super hard to explain so forgive me if this is complete jibberish. I'll try to give an example.
During a massage recently:
massage therapist was working on my side.
pressure was felt on my side (raw sensation/data)
Thought arose "She is touching my side"
Next thought arose "I'm getting a little chunky"
Next thought "I need to lose some weight"
They all seem to point back to this "I' no matter how unrelated the raw stimulus is. I'll look forward to hearing your response

Best,
Duds

Hi, Dudley!

Can you point at it with your finger? Where is this 'I'?

I cannot point to it. I cannot find a specific location for this I.

Does this mean that 'I' is the whole body? Is none of it? Is just a part of the body 'I'?

Thoughts seem to just appear out of pretty much nowhere. I am not the thoughts. I know that thought is there/arising. It seems like the thoughts just dissolve back into nowhere/nothing. I cannot control or alter these thoughts.

If thoughts are of such obscure origin... why give them so much credit?

"I" recognized that even the idea of "watching" thoughts is in itself another thought and or a part of the "observed" thought. Is this fair to say? I want to make sure this is seen clearly.

Yes, the idea of watching thoughts is a thought. But observing thoughts is an action, not a thought. It's a good question though.

Your statement "thinking plays a huge roll in your life" struck a chord somehow. The idea that "I am caught up in thought" appears frequently. It still appears, perhaps energetically, That there is something (me?) here that is aware of all this happening.

What do you mean by an idea appearing 'energetically'? Do you experience a difference between awareness and thoughts or is it the same? In a moment in which you would say 'I am caught up in thought', what is your direct experience of what's going on - what is different from moments when you don't get that impression?

I noticed that the content of thought is usually pointing back to an "I" or trying to figure out and explain situations and stimuli and compare & or project scenarios in which they make sense in a personal story about "I". This stuff is super hard to explain so forgive me if this is complete jibberish. I'll try to give an example.
During a massage recently:
massage therapist was working on my side.
pressure was felt on my side (raw sensation/data)
Thought arose "She is touching my side"
Next thought arose "I'm getting a little chunky"
Next thought "I need to lose some weight"
They all seem to point back to this "I' no matter how unrelated the raw stimulus is. I'll look forward to hearing your response

Well, but the question that remains is: Is there really an 'I', just because there are thoughts about 'I'?

It might be interesting to do a little experiment here. You will need two pieces of paper and a pen. It is useful to just sit for a while and watch what is going on if you do nothing. Then pick up the pen and write down everything that you observe for a couple of minutes. On the first paper you write down sentences in the style 'I am holding a pen. I am scratching the back with it. I am thinking that this exercise is ridiculous'. After a while please take a short break of maybe a minute, then go on and write down everything that happens from direct experience, maybe 'pen touches paper - colour fills the page - breathing'. Please report back what you observe!

So far,
Christina

Hello again!

Does this mean that 'I' is the whole body? Is none of it? Is just a part of the body 'I'?

I realize that the I is not the body. but somehow it feels like "I" am trapped in this body, or confined to it somehow.

If thoughts are of such obscure origin... why give them so much credit?

That's the question!! the thoughts are listened to because it seems like they relate to "me" or the body somehow. When I think "I am going to go to get a coffee", going to get coffee seems to follow. So this leads me to believe that thought has some sort of power over action and thus relates directly to the character. I feel like this is an area that is not quite clear.

What do you mean by an idea appearing 'energetically'? Do you experience a difference between awareness and thoughts or is it the same? In a moment in which you would say 'I am caught up in thought', what is your direct experience of what's going on - what is different from moments when you don't get that impression?

I mean more of a contraction and a sense of being confined to this body as seperate which may be energetic. I know that I am aware of thought and I cannot find a boundary between the two. The moment I am caught up in thought, my direct experience is an unpleasant sensation or contraction in the body accompanied by words (image) in the head saying "i am caught up in thought". Moments where I don't get caught up don't feature the same sensation in the body.

It might be interesting to do a little experiment here. You will need two pieces of paper and a pen. It is useful to just sit for a while and watch what is going on if you do nothing. Then pick up the pen and write down everything that you observe for a couple of minutes. On the first paper you write down sentences in the style 'I am holding a pen. I am scratching the back with it. I am thinking that this exercise is ridiculous'. After a while please take a short break of maybe a minute, then go on and write down everything that happens from direct experience, maybe 'pen touches paper - colour fills the page - breathing'. Please report back what you observe!

This was a pretty cool experiment! There is a big difference when content of experience is ignored and raw sense data is seen for what it is. Seems much lighter somehow. I could see the story being spun about "me" doing things and things happening to "me". I could also see how sensations are labeled by the brain to fit into a particular story line when in reality it is only tasting, touching, smelling, seeing & hearing. I need to do that more often!

Hi Dudley,

I realize that the I is not the body. but somehow it feels like "I" am trapped in this body, or confined to it somehow.

Where exactly are you 'trapped'? Can you please try to localize the feeling of 'I'? Where is it?

When I think "I am going to go to get a coffee", going to get coffee seems to follow.

Let's look a bit more closely at that: Please do go and make yourself some coffee (or another beverage that needs some preparation)! But before you do that, sit still for a while. Just watch what's happening for a while, listen to the sounds that arise, feel the pressure of the chair, just watch how breathing unfolds without you having to control it. Then, after a while, get up and start preparing your coffee. Do not stop watching closely what is happening though: How is the decision made that it's time to get up? What causes the getting up? How are other details of the process decided? With every action you do, please observe how that action arises. Do 'you' decide to do the next thing? Is there a choice? What is going on? Please report back!

I mean more of a contraction and a sense of being confined to this body as seperate which may be energetic.

Okay, I get the sensation/contraction, but I still don't understand what you mean by 'energetic'. What do you mean by that?

I know that I am aware of thought and I cannot find a boundary between the two.

Do you ever experience breaks between your thoughts? If so, where does awareness go then?

This was a pretty cool experiment! There is a big difference when content of experience is ignored and raw sense data is seen for what it is. Seems much lighter somehow. I could see the story being spun about "me" doing things and things happening to "me". I could also see how sensations are labeled by the brain to fit into a particular story line when in reality it is only tasting, touching, smelling, seeing & hearing. I need to do that more often!

I'm happy it went so well for you! Yes, it IS much lighter not having to cling to an 'I', isn't it? Could you see what the 'I' in the first phase of the experiment is basically made of?

So far,
Christina