The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The "I/self" we refer to while talking/thinking has no basis in the reality. In reality, there is just "this" one whole process, an awareness of "what is" through this body. The "I" refers to nothing, it's just a belief.

What are you looking for at LU?
There is an intellectual understanding that there is no real "I", but it seems like just another belief. It feels like I haven't really seen it yet. there is always a question: Is this all? I just want to be sure about this "there is no I" thing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To really see through the illusion of "I". I don't know if I am expecting anything grand from this. I want to see things as they really are. My journey started with "self-improvement" and now I am at the point that "there is no self". Now really seeing that "there is no self" seems the only way to end this journey/seeking. I expect to really see this illusion during this conversation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
It started 3 years ago with a breakup, feeling of rejection, dealing with the emotional pain, being a better person. It led to hearing Alan Watts, then reading Zen koans. I watched U.G. and then Tony Parsons videos on youtube. then reading I AM THAT and watching Rupert Spira videos. and now here I am. so no particular practice just reading stuff from here and there. I do meditate every now and then.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hi Pran (is that what I shall call you?),

I will be happy to guide you.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Actually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly.
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

I don't know if I am expecting anything grand from this

It is important to be aware of this expectations.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
Is that the case with you too?

Regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus, thank you for being my guide.

Hi Pran (is that what I shall call you?)

Yup

The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Actually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Yes, seeing through the illusion of separate self seems like an only thing to seek.

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly.
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

Yes, I've spent my waiting time being familiar with the forum, I've gone through disclaimer as well as "Gateless Gatecrashers" pdf, I've also read "Ruthless Truth" document. Let's start.

It is important to be aware of this expectations.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
Is that the case with you too?

To be honest there is certainly an expectation but not about, miracles, bliss etc. The expectation is of seeing reality as it is. Actually seeing there is no self.

Note: English is not my first language so please excuse me if anything is not clear. Please ask and I will try to be more precise.

Ok Pran,

Lets go. Cool!
I am Dutch by the way. And you? What is your first language?

The expectation is of seeing reality as it is.

Great!

Many times I start with a set of questions about thoughts. I like to do that now too:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Regards, Petrus

Great!

I am Dutch by the way.

Hehe, so we can both murder English then :)

And you? What is your first language?

Marathi.(from the Indian state of Maharashtra, Mumbai..? )

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

I don't know where thoughts come from and where they go. they seem to just appear and disappear. Something (perception..?) triggers them and they just appear. When I try to stop them, only content of thought changes, but 'I' can't stop a thought in the middle.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

'I' can't find anything that generates thought, but there is strong assumption that If thoughts appear, something inside body must be making them appear.

In DE, there are just thoughts, but no thinker.

So just now, 'I' got lost in the thoughts, and just as 'I' became aware of them, a thought came that, "I am thinking". So 'I' seems like just another thought, but there are doubts about this, which also are thoughts.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

'I' can't find a concrete entity that controls thought. 'I' can't choose not to have painful or negative thoughts. 'I' seem to have some control over what to think, like I can start thinking about the tree, I see from my window, but there is no control over the direction the thought chain will take. I don't know what is thinking the thought.

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Honestly, It seems the thoughts think that there is a "doer", but there is also a sense that there is someone who thinks these thoughts.

It is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing, not possible in case of 'I' too.

Thanks for the help man, appreciate it.

Hi Pran,

Hehe, so we can both murder English then :)

Haha, lets do that!

Marathi.(from the Indian state of Maharashtra, Mumbai..? )

The language from Nisargadatta Maharaj!

When I try to stop them, only content of thought changes

Who or what is there to try?

In DE, there are just thoughts, but no thinker.

What is your actual experience?

So 'I' seems like just another thought, but there are doubts about this, which also are thoughts.

Are you sure doubts are thoughts?

'I' seem to have some control over what to think, like I can start thinking about the tree,

From where/what comes this intention to start thinking about a tree?

but there is also a sense that there is someone who thinks these thoughts.

How real is this sense?

Regards, Petrus

Who or what is there to try?

I can't find anything but thoughts including thoughts like "can I stop this thought?" , "try to stop these thoughts in the middle" etc.

What is your actual experience?

Right Now, there is seeing through window, hearing birds chirping, smelling of food, thinking about what to write, typing these words, hearing fan humming, feeling of air on skin, seeing wall, wind moving tree branches, feeling pressure on my hands where it touches table, itching on chest, scratching it, breathing, hearing birds,

just as I was typing this, my phone rang, talking happened, one thing led to another and an hour was gone, now it seems like there was no real control.

Are you sure doubts are thoughts?

I'm not sure, It seems like a feeling of not being sure/certain about things.

From where/what comes this intention to start thinking about a tree?

This is really difficult to answer, I can't find anything that causes intent, but something in here is not ready to accept this. mind comes up with answers like the intent is created by memory, perception, response to your questions etc. but it is also seen that it's all guesswork.

How real is this sense?

I don't know how to answer this. I don't know where or what this sense is (I really wanted to swear while typing this). These questions are really making me confused, bit frustrated.

These were difficult ones to answer, to add to this, something or someone kept coming while typing the answer and it delayed the response.

Thank you.

Hi Pran,

Listen to beautiful music.
When doing so, is there someone listening?

When trying answer questions. Is there someone thinking?

What is the difference between listening to music and answering questions?

These questions are really making me confused, bit frustrated.

Good! haha

Do you have the feeling of being a "you"? If so, where is this you? How big is it?

Regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,
After reading these questions, there was lots of irritation.

Listen to beautiful music.

I did, went to take a shower and played some Sufi music and just loved it.

When doing so, is there someone listening?

There is just listening, moving my body with rhythm, singing along.

When trying answer questions. Is there someone thinking?

Reading this question happens, thoughts appear, typing these words happen but I can't find anyone who actually thinks. It seems there is a chain of events one thing leads to another but no one does it.

What is the difference between listening to music and answering questions?

Nothing really. Answering questions feel more like " I am doing it" than listening to music.

Do you have the feeling of being a "you"? If so, where is this you? How big is it?

There is certainly a feeling of being, existing. I'm not sure about the "you" part as I don't know what it means anymore.

Hi Pran,

Answering questions feel more like " I am doing it"

Exactly, it feels like that, but a closer look gives:
There is listening without a listener. There is thinking without a thinker.
Do you agree?

And what about: There is feeling (frustation), without a feeler?

After reading these questions, there was lots of irritation.

Could you elaborate?

I read your first post again and I've seen this:

It feels like I haven't really seen it yet. there is always a question: Is this all? I just want to be sure about this "there is no I" thing.

"Is this all?" is a kind of expectation isn't it?
What should happen if you see it? Please ponder some time over this.

And an exercise:
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
Can you feel where the body ends?

Do you have control over this body?
Can you locate a mind?

Can you feel your ears?
Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in direct experience?
Are you this body?

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,
Thank you for your quick reply. As suggested by you, I will take some time to ponder over these question. There is also this constant pressure in my forehead, whenever there is being more aware and looking more closely or while meditating (not sure why I'm mentioning this). I will get back to you with the exercise. And just to let you know that, this is the first time, I'm having a conversation about this stuff with anyone and I appreciate it very much. Cheers mate!

Take your time...!!

Hi Petrus
Sorry for late reply.

There is listening without a listener. There is thinking without a thinker.
Do you agree?

I agree.

And what about: There is feeling (frustation), without a feeler?

There is just feeling.

After reading these questions, there was lots of irritation.
Could you elaborate?

Nothing really, there was just feeling of being annoyed. seems like mind struggling to answer these questions. Feeling of tension in the body, particularly jaw. As soon as there was awareness of this feeling and tension, it started disappearing slowly.

"Is this all?" is a kind of expectation isn't it?
What should happen if you see it? Please ponder some time over this.

Oh, so you found it :) tricks the mind plays!
There are thoughts like; the sages and awakened talk about some other stuff, there must be more than this. But these are just thoughts. If I don't believe them, the question ceases.

EXCERCISE:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No.

Does the body have a weight or a volume?

No volume. No weight also, the pressure along the body creates this feeling. It was difficult to see this.

Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?

No.

Can you feel where the body ends?

No.

Do you have control over this body?

Not Really.

Can you locate a mind?

I can't.

Can you feel your ears?

No.

Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?

Just hearing.

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No shape, No form.

Is there an inside or outside?

No Inside, No outside.

What does the body consist of in direct experience?

Sensations and feelings.

Are you this body?

No. Even after seeing this, there is strong identification with the body, but its okay.

Hi Pran,

You seem to give all the "right" answers, but has your quest become to an and now?

There are thoughts like; the sages and awakened talk about some other stuff

What stuff exactly?

So can you live with the thought: "This is it"?
Is there a real I that is disappointed?
Do you feel this conversation has changed someting for you?

Warm regards