The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self or the ego is a thought that seems very real and is very persistent, albeit not real. I understand that by truly seeing that it is not real, my experience of life, which has been based on this false idea, will never be the same again.

What are you looking for at LU?
've done a lot of spiritual work, and was immersing in the 'non duality' kind of work last couple years. I see a direct connection between thought and feelings. I've experienced many times the essence of Being/ who we really are. But a few areas remain stuck. E.g.

- I dread separation, especially with my loved ones/family members. The thought of losing them/being away or separated is unbearable. My life revolves around traveling a lot, so I experience crippling sadness very often. I don't look forward to the future when I know inevitably my family members will no longer be around... I get attached easily to romantic partners and fear breakups.

- I have a belief that I don't deserve good things unless I work hard for it... As a result my life falls in two extremes: I relax and luxuriate while fretting about money, or I don't have to worry about money but work like a dog... I never seem to be able to be truly at rest and at peace for long.

- Most important of all, I just want to be at peace over longer periods of time. My mind is so active and constantly creating drama to think about...

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would really love guidance to see something very simple but I am still not seeing after all this work. I hope the guide will be patient with me and don't let me off the hook so easily. Lasting, sustainable transformation is what I look for eventually.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've spent 6 years in spiritual practices. I've experienced the timeless presence of Being that is who I really am, many times, and my life has been profoundly impacted by those insights. However I keep 'losing' it. I stop seeing it and get back in my head. I've made a lot of progress (while knowing that there's nowhere to get to), but the feeling of peace doesn't last for more than a couple months at a time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi Emily and welcome to the LU forum. I'm Sandra and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
You seem to have lots of expectations for this guiding. Did you read what LU is not? If you didn't, please do: https://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
I'm not a therapist, I'm just a guide. If you want to deal with deep emotional issues, you should consider the help of a professional expert.

However I keep 'losing' it. I stop seeing it and get back in my head.

If, after reading what LU is not, you wish to continue, I would like to know what do you think is being lost. And what is being seen, too. Can you try to describe these experiences? What are you losing and what do you see?

Looking forward to our conversation,
S

Hi Sandra,

Thank you so much for being my guide.

Yes, I have just read what Liberation Unleashed is not. I would love to move forward with it. Thank you for letting me know. No more expectation now.

When I say 'seeing' it is this: I really feel myself as the formless energy that's created the sky, the clouds, the mountains, and everything on the ground, the trees, the people moving around and even the stories in their heads. I see myself everywhere, and in everything. Sometimes, there is a permeating presence, warm, loving, all-encompassing around me, a palpable sense that I feel in the room, and within me. I am moved to tears. In those moments, I really feel that I am well, in fact, this formless energy that is who I am is well-being and love and okayness itself. After those moments of seeing, I feel really at peace and content. No more worries. I just get that life will take care of itself. I feel so much inner peace and calm. I was more loving and patient with my family members, so much so that they have to comment on it comma they really sense a change in me.

When I say losing it, this is what I mean. Suddenly that sense of peace and knowing disappears, I get back into my head and start worrying about money, work, the future. I still understand intellectually that I am the formless energy behind life, but it is no longer a felt sense, or a felt experience. The experience of inner peace that I had felt before seems so far away. I no longer felt connected to a sense of openness and well-being. I start to resent certain things in my life and worry about other things. My head is so busy instead of being calm, busy controlling and managing life.

Hope to hear from you again, let me know if my response doesn't meet the requirements. Thank you.

Emily

Hi again, Emily!

If needed you can learn how to use the quote function here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you so much for being my guide.

Yes, I have just read what Liberation Unleashed is not. I would love to move forward with it. Thank you for letting me know. No more expectation now.

Glad you want to continue! Having expectations is normal and okay but - if you are not aware that expectations are always about an imaginary future (and I...) - they can lead to resistance and doubts, instead of allowing a clear seeing of what is here now. And seeing what is here now, as it is, is the main goal in this path we are walking together. Don't worry, I'll try to deal with your expectations the best I can, if they start being in the way.

When I say 'seeing' it is this: I really feel myself as the formless energy that's created the sky, the clouds, the mountains, and everything on the ground, the trees, the people moving around and even the stories in their heads. I see myself everywhere, and in everything. Sometimes, there is a permeating presence, warm, loving, all-encompassing around me, a palpable sense that I feel in the room, and within me. I am moved to tears. In those moments, I really feel that I am well, in fact, this formless energy that is who I am is well-being and love and okayness itself. After those moments of seeing, I feel really at peace and content. No more worries. I just get that life will take care of itself. I feel so much inner peace and calm. I was more loving and patient with my family members, so much so that they have to comment on it comma they really sense a change in me.

You are describing an experience, would you agree? It looks like a wonderful experience but experiences come and go, like everything else. This is not about practicing or reaching or staying in a specific state or experience.

Usually, when we prefer one experience and try to stay in it, that means we are trying to escape other kind of experiences. And usually, when we can't, the suffering seems to increase.

Anyway, what you are sharing is not what I would call seeing. Seeing is noticing what is here now, as it is, which can be done even among intense pain and suffering.

Let's say we are both in a store at Christmas time and we see Santa. And I'll ask you: "hey Emily, do you see Santa?" and you look at the bearded old man dressed in reds and whites. Your answer may be "yes, I see Santa" but, although you are seeing Santa you already know Santa isn't real. Even if I try to convince you that Santa exists because there are so many evidences of its existence, you will not believe me.

Our goal is to see that, although it seems a self is real, such a thing can't be found, just like Santa. And this can be done exploring/looking to everything that seems to be a self, regardless of if you are having a good or a bad moment.

When I say losing it, this is what I mean. Suddenly that sense of peace and knowing disappears, I get back into my head and start worrying about money, work, the future. I still understand intellectually that I am the formless energy behind life, but it is no longer a felt sense, or a felt experience. The experience of inner peace that I had felt before seems so far away. I no longer felt connected to a sense of openness and well-being. I start to resent certain things in my life and worry about other things. My head is so busy instead of being calm, busy controlling and managing life.

Yes. I understand what you are saying.

It seems to me that in the first experience you described you may be experiencing life in a impersonal way - in other words, you aren't seeing life as your life, as happening to you. And when, like you so well say, you "lose it", it seems life is happening to you, it becomes personal.

Do you have questions related with what I'm saying above? Let me know if I'm overwhelming you, I get easily carried away sometimes.

It seems to me that you are very aware of what is happening, at least, you're good at describing what you see happening. That's wonderful!

If you are like most people, it is possible that you never considered what an I is. But would you agree with me that, if such a thing exists, it must be possible to find it?

What I would like you to do next is to try to locate the I. Have a look around. Is the I something that is inside the body? Is the I something that is outside the body? Can you find an I?

Take care,
S

Hi Sandra!

seeing what is here now, as it is, is the main goal in this path we are walking together.

Sounds great. It's clear to me now and it's a great goal.

It seems to me that in the first experience you described you may be experiencing life in a impersonal way - in other words, you aren't seeing life as your life, as happening to you. And when, like you so well say, you "lose it", it seems life is happening to you, it becomes personal.

Yes, in the first experience that I described, I see myself not as Emily the person, but as the formless energy behind life, I see myself as the all-encompassing everything, the energy that creates the universe. I see myself as the energy that creates matter, the form of which may be trees, clouds, mountains, or Emily the person. I don't identify with Emily the person, no matter what happens to this person, I have no opinion or judgment or preference, I know I am always okay because I am not of the world of form.

In the second experience, I see myself as Emily the person, with things to worry about, burdens to take care of, troubles to deal with. Life no longer feels expansive and peaceful as compared to the first experience. I have somehow collapsed into a small body.

But would you agree with me that, if such a thing exists, it must be possible to find it?

What I would like you to do next is to try to locate the I. Have a look around. Is the I something that is inside the body? Is the I something that is outside the body? Can you find an I?

I'm not sure if we can always locate intangible things such as: Beauty, confidence, fear, competence, etc. They cannot be touched or seen as a visible object.

It looks to me that the I is something that exists within the boundaries of one's personal mind.. It seems that it is a concept that exists inside a person's mind, and it mostly pertains to characteristics of that particular body and personality. It is a concept, not a physical, tangible thing, therefore cannot be found either inside or outside of the body, to the same extent that you cannot find confidence, beauty, or competence on the inside or outside of the body. The I is made up of thought.

So this is what I'm seeing right now...

Thanks Sandra!

Emily

Hi Emily, thank your for your reply!

Yes, in the first experience that I described, I see myself not as Emily the person, but as the formless energy behind life, I see myself as the all-encompassing everything, the energy that creates the universe. I see myself as the energy that creates matter, the form of which may be trees, clouds, mountains, or Emily the person. I don't identify with Emily the person, no matter what happens to this person, I have no opinion or judgment or preference, I know I am always okay because I am not of the world of form.

In the second experience, I see myself as Emily the person, with things to worry about, burdens to take care of, troubles to deal with. Life no longer feels expansive and peaceful as compared to the first experience. I have somehow collapsed into a small body.

I would like you to read what you've written above and ponder something. You are talking about what seems to be two different kind of experiences. And they apparently have something in common. In both you "see myself". There seems to be a "myself" present in both but in one of these experiences you don't perceive this "myself" as being a separate I and in the other experience you perceive this "myself" as being a separate I.

If a "my-self", a real self exists, it can't be something that comes and goes when what is being experienced changes. It must be as solid, independent, separate, findable as any other of the things that can be perceived here/now.

So, there are two possibilities going on:

- there is a real self experiencing both states you described

- there isn't a real self experiencing both states you described

Would you agree with me?

Or you are experiencing a real self or you are experiencing an illusion appearing and disappearing.

The only way for you to know what is happening is to try to find this "myself" you say you can see. Looking for a self is like looking for a misplaced set of house keys. You use your senses, you look with the eyes. If a "myself" is here now it must be somewhere, it must have a shape, a weight, a color, a taste, a smell. It has to be more than an assumption, a thought, a concept, a subject in a sentence.

So have a look. Do you find a self? Do you see a self in what surrounds you? Do you find any evidences that such a separate entity exists?

Share how looking for a real self goes for you, Emily.

Take care,
S

Hi Sandra!

If a "my-self", a real self exists, it can't be something that comes and goes when what is being experienced changes. It must be as solid, independent, separate, findable as any other of the things that can be perceived here/now.

So, there are two possibilities going on:

- there is a real self experiencing both states you described

- there isn't a real self experiencing both states you described

I agree that if a real self does exist, it should be solid and unchanging. This is also where I'm often stuck.

I would say that the self experienced in the first scenario is the real self. The self experienced in the second scenario is the false, hoodwinking, shapeshifting illusion because it is fleeting all the time. Even in this second scenario, the self experienced in the first scenario (the solid, unchanging one) is still there but it is not experienced, it is overlooked. I have often understood it like this, and from time to time, when the second scenario happens (I 'lost' it, get into my head, worry about life, etc.) I would disconnect from the body and wish for escape, to a place where there is no physical body or physical identity, I only exist as pure energy and pure being, not as a human with all the human troubles. I would hate the experience of being human with all the problems it brings. Why can't I just be pure energy without a form and without thoughts/stories?

Looking for a self is like looking for a misplaced set of house keys. You use your senses, you look with the eyes. If a "myself" is here now it must be somewhere, it must have a shape, a weight, a color, a taste, a smell. It has to be more than an assumption, a thought, a concept, a subject in a sentence.

So have a look. Do you find a self? Do you see a self in what surrounds you? Do you find any evidences that such a separate entity exists?

I've brought up this point previously. The 'self' to me is intangible, just like the concept of beauty, love, confidence, or competence. For example, beauty or love does not have a shape, a weight, a color, a taste, a smell, but beauty can be perceived. I look at the sunset and I say beauty is there. I look at a flower and I say beauty is there. I look into a child's eyes and I see love. In that sense, beauty or love does not exist as a separate, touchable entity, but beauty and love do exist.

I do not see a self in what surrounds me. I think the self is a thought that exists in my head. So I cannot find it or touch it per se. I do understand that it is a made up thought, it's constantly changing, it comes and goes.

Sometimes I look into the mirror and I see the self there. Sometimes I look into the mirror and I see pure being, pure love, pure energy. I then have a realization that the biggest illusion I've been believing in my whole life is that I am the body that I see in the mirror.

What's been constant and unchanging in my experience is the energy of life that runs through me, allowing for an experience of reality with five senses, thoughts and awareness, movements, perception.

Not sure if I've been rambling and getting off track...

Thank you.
Emily

Hi Emily!

I would say that the self experienced in the first scenario is the real self. The self experienced in the second scenario is the false, hoodwinking, shapeshifting illusion because it is fleeting all the time. Even in this second scenario, the self experienced in the first scenario (the solid, unchanging one) is still there but it is not experienced, it is overlooked. I have often understood it like this, and from time to time, when the second scenario happens (I 'lost' it, get into my head, worry about life, etc.) I would disconnect from the body and wish for escape, to a place where there is no physical body or physical identity, I only exist as pure energy and pure being, not as a human with all the human troubles. I would hate the experience of being human with all the problems it brings. Why can't I just be pure energy without a form and without thoughts/stories?

How do you know there is a real self in the first scenario?
Are you experiencing a real self or a state of mind, when what you are describing is happening?

The 'self' to me is intangible, just like the concept of beauty, love, confidence, or competence.

If the self is intangible, could it be just a bunch of thoughts about a self?
What else could it be, if it can't be experienced?
Is a concept more than an interpretation of reality?

I do not see a self in what surrounds me. I think the self is a thought that exists in my head. So I cannot find it or touch it per se. I do understand that it is a made up thought, it's constantly changing, it comes and goes.

Sometimes I look into the mirror and I see the self there. Sometimes I look into the mirror and I see pure being, pure love, pure energy. I then have a realization that the biggest illusion I've been believing in my whole life is that I am the body that I see in the mirror.

This is nice. Would you say you are the body or inside the body? Don't think about this. Look to the body. Do you see a body or a self?

What's been constant and unchanging in my experience is the energy of life that runs through me, allowing for an experience of reality with five senses, thoughts and awareness, movements, perception.

How do you know a me is part of this experience? Have a look. Do you find this me?

Not sure if I've been rambling and getting off track...

That's okay. Don't worry, there are no right or wrong answers. You are still focused in states of mind and interpretations, which is normal. We are so used to try to understand things that by default we think this can be understood before we see what is being pointed, when it's the opposite that happens. You can only start to understand the self illusion after you see what is being pointed.

By the way - fears and frustration and doubts and resistance may appear as a result of this inquiry. That's also normal. We are poking outside your comfort zone and stepping out of what we think we know can be uncomfortable.

Try to find the answers to my questions by looking at what is being experienced now, by looking to what is here - instead of thinking about the question. You can't taste a meal only by thinking about the menu! So focus in facts and leave interpretations to the side as best as you can. It's a fact that there is a screen here, yes? How about a separate you? Do you find such a thing?

Take care,
S

Hi Sandra!

I'm slowly starting to get what you're pointing me to. I will try to report the facts of what I experienced.

How do you know there is a real self in the first scenario?
Are you experiencing a real self or a state of mind, when what you are describing is happening?

You are right. I do not know if there is a real self in the first scenario. It was an experience, and the experience happened, but there was not a separate self per se that experienced that experience. There was a feeling of expansion, permeating the entire space, and there were no boundaries.

In the second scenario, I was also describing a state of mind/ another experience. However that experience felt like it happened inside of a body. There was a feeling of smallness and being trapped in a small space, a body, a head, a bubble. It looked like there was a boundary between the body/the mind inside that body and the world outside that body.

If the self is intangible, could it be just a bunch of thoughts about a self?
What else could it be, if it can't be experienced?
Is a concept more than an interpretation of reality?

Yes I agree. The self can be a bunch of made-up thoughts about a self. Yes it is a concept rather than a reality.

Would you say you are the body or inside the body? Don't think about this. Look to the body. Do you see a body or a self?

When I look to the body, I see the body, not a self. I do not know if I'm inside or outside of the body. I just see the body. It's a very strange sensation right now... in fact there is the body there, but I'm not sure where I am!! Am I inside or outside of the body? Am I the body? Ahhhh... Where is this 'I'?? Trying to find it now...

And because 'seeing' is happening from the eyes of the body, it is easy to assume that 'I' lives inside the body. There is a person that is seeing the body right now.

Feels like I"m onto something here...

I'm trying another experiment to find the 'I': Moving the body across the room. In view, there is now a door. Now there are the flowers. Now there is a table. But all the time, there is the same body in view. It's the same thing showing up as movement happens across the house. So I think... 'I' must be somewhere around, in close proximity to this body.

And then, because I have never seen this body from the outside, it's always been this same view, 'I' must be inside this body.

emilyn wrote:
What's been constant and unchanging in my experience is the energy of life that runs through me, allowing for an experience of reality with five senses, thoughts and awareness, movements, perception.


How do you know a me is part of this experience? Have a look. Do you find this me?

I do not know if a 'me' is part of this experience. I cannot find this 'me'. What's been constant and unchanging is the energy of life running through a body, and a constant stream of experience, perception, movements, thoughts, awareness.

So focus in facts and leave interpretations to the side as best as you can. It's a fact that there is a screen here, yes? How about a separate you? Do you find such a thing?

Yes, there is a screen here. There is a body here. There are fingers typing. There are eyes seeing words appearing on the screen. There is interpretation of words happening somewhere inside the head.

By the way, Sandra, I'm a very auditory person and love music/sounds... If you have any exercises around sounds/music/hearing that may help with this process please let me know.

Thank you.
Emily

Dear Emily, you did a great "job" looking for a separate self! You already know how to look!

It seems to me that you are a little stuck in two of the main causes of the self illusion: language and thinking. Both reinforce the sense of being an I. We can explore this later.

I'm a very auditory person and love music/sounds... If you have any exercises around sounds/music/hearing that may help with this process please let me know.

Sure! Here are some good exercises around sound:

Stop everything for two minutes and listen intently to all sounds that are present. Is there a hearer of sounds, separate from the hearing and the heard? Can you experience a real gap between hearer + hearing + heard - 3 separate "things"? With closed eyes, check if there is a line between a me here and a sound there. Can it be defined? Can you find an entity that is the hearer, separated from the sound?

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought “I hear that.” Now just pay attention to how sound happens. Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing, or is it just happening?

You can also try this exercise that makes you look into the concept of boundaries:

Close your eyes and search for the boundary of “you.” With your eyes closed, where do you end and where does the world begin? With your eyes closed, are you aware of a boundary between the skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation? When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a “you” looking out of two holes in your head? Are you doing the seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary?

Let me know what you find!

Take care,
S

Stop everything for two minutes and listen intently to all sounds that are present. Is there a hearer of sounds, separate from the hearing and the heard? Can you experience a real gap between hearer + hearing + heard - 3 separate "things"? With closed eyes, check if there is a line between a me here and a sound there. Can it be defined? Can you find an entity that is the hearer, separated from the sound?

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought “I hear that.” Now just pay attention to how sound happens. Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing, or is it just happening?

I've tried this, listening to music, and there are also birds chirping outside the window. So with eyes closed, there is just sound happening. There is the sound of music happening. There is the experience of music happening and being aware of that music happening at the same time. Then there is another sound happening at the same time, it sounds different from the music, but there is no clear line between the two, no clear line between here and there, no clear line between the hearer and the music. In a moment, there is just one song happening (Uni-verse!) It's one experience happening all at once.

Close your eyes and search for the boundary of “you.” With your eyes closed, where do you end and where does the world begin? With your eyes closed, are you aware of a boundary between the skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation? When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a “you” looking out of two holes in your head? Are you doing the seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary?

With my eyes closed, there is the sensation of where the skin at the bottom of the feet touching the ground. There's the cold sensation of the floor. There's the sensation of where the skin is touching the chair. That feels like where the boundary is.

When I open my eyes, the sights are just there. I am not doing the seeing. The sight happens.

Not sure if I'm getting any closer to the fact... I feel that I'm still not seeing what you're pointing at.

Thank you Sandra!

It seems you didn't found a separate you while doing those exercises?

I feel that I'm still not seeing what you're pointing at.

How will you know you are seeing what I'm pointing at?
What are you expecting to see and feel?

How will you know you are seeing what I'm pointing at?
What are you expecting to see and feel?

I still feel that my answers make sense logically and intellectually. But when I really 'see' the point, I expect it may bring a sense of wonder, relief, or aliveness... Right now my answers feel a bit mechanic.

No I didn't find a separate me while doing the exercises.

What I found is a separate body when I opened the eyes and looked down.

Does the body equate to this separate entity we're looking for? There is no answer to this question.

Thank you Sandra!

Hi Emily!

I still feel that my answers make sense logically and intellectually. But when I really 'see' the point, I expect it may bring a sense of wonder, relief, or aliveness... Right now my answers feel a bit mechanic.

Maybe that's because you think you already know these answers?

Does the body equate to this separate entity we're looking for? There is no answer to this question.

Can you write a little more about this?
What is for you a separate entity? Do you think you are one?
What makes you say the body may be an entity?

Take care,
S