The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It is understood that there is no real self (suspiciously and probably tho on a conceptual level). Focused guiding is seen as an amazing gift and invitation to get support through a tailored dialogue dance.

What are you looking for at LU?
Im looking for the possibility of a little extra push, to force myself to look deeper. As Ive been spending months on my own in isolation writing, reading, "meditating", questioning in confusion with at times a sense of stuckness, of not really seeing what is expected to be seen even tho Im tearing through expectations with trial and error.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
From reading LU's books I find myself at what seems to be the gate over and over again. Through reading guided conversations in the book, guiding myself in what easily could be judged as insane roleplays (haha) of pretending to be a guide for myself in search for missed angles to attack from. Bumping into beliefs and thoughts of how "it should be" to awaken or see that I dont exist in reality. The reality of "I/me" is nowhere to be found but yet, as Im standing right there, not finding myself. Sometimes it seems so incredibly obvious and clear, something seem to not have been seen deep or clearly enough. A sense that something is missing. So what I hope, want, expect, fear, dont expect is to know, to really know. To be able to stop. Whatever that means.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The story goes something like this, about a year ago I stumpled upon Adyashanti and since then everything has been turned upside down. Being in my late 20s I've gone from traveling the world as some kind of newage'r chaseing women to nothing but the obsession of questioning everything and chaseing myself. 6 months ago I started reading Jed McKenna and since then I've been in some kind of limbo or depression (the closest I can compare it to). About a month ago I started reading LU's gatecrashers and Im currently in the process of reading Ilonas book. As far as practices/inquiry Ive spent alot of time especially since Jed and even more so since LU, questioning what ever is there to question, writing and writing.

Now Im here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

Hello Frogman

My name is Bambaji, and I am a guide here at LU. I would love to guide you if you are happy to have me. How would you like me to address you - Frogman or by another name?

First of all, please have a look around the site and acclimatise yourself to how things work here. Go to the "Home" button at the top of this post and have a read of what LU is and is not.

These conversations, as you may have noticed, always take the form of an inquiry, where the guide asks a series of questions that all point to the realisation that there is no self (or that self is an illusion). You and I will simply have a conversation, a chat as between friends. I will tend to question existing beliefs but will not give new beliefs or 'teachings'. It is for you to 'take a look' at your experience.

Other teachings can be very helpful, but they can also cloud what we are going to be looking at, so I would ask that you put everything else aside while we go through this process.

Could you please agree to post at least once a day? I will try to do the same and will let you know if I am not able to.

If you feel ready to start then please consider this question:

What is your current understanding of what it is that 'you' are?

Bambaji x

Bambaji!

Full of appriciation for you reaching out!

Ive read most of whats readable and listenable to on this site.

I can definetely agree to posting everyday :)

Lets jump in.

What is your current understanding of what it is that 'you' are?

First off, I really want to admit that I lurked around alittlebit in your initial thread that was posted. I only read the first couple of posts before I got excited to write myself off and jumped right back here.

I could resonate in my own little interpretation and connectionmakeing bubble to where you where at when you started the thread. As I feel like Im really confused (today in a light and fun way), lost/close in some kind of inbetween land here and now as I woke up today. Im full of excitement, thoughts are kinda made fun of and there is a certain playfullness. Maybe really the only thing creating confusion is just exactly the expectations and thougts saying "is this it?". Ive just spent what seems to have been 3-4 days, even tho I have no idea how it could have been so many (clocks couldnt have been cared less about) as the days have been mushed into one bowl of intense investigation. Ive been (for the uncountable:th time) writeing down expectations, beliefs, trying to write and get to whats true. Walking around in nature looking looking looking. With inspiration from Ilonas book sprung this burst of momentum in "seeking". This is all a story and really theres nothing else but a wanting to express it all here and now to get it out on the table.

I also want to say that I wont read yours or any other threads for now. (Unless you get a sense of it being useful in some way). Compareing expressed words with interpreted words can get quite messy. Theres a sense of being done with compareing my experiences with everyone elses. Wich is partly why Im here, so I feel good about haveing reached that/this point, now.

So back to the question.

What is your current understanding of what it is that 'you' are?

'My' understanding of 'me' is that its nothing but an unquestioned assumption. What ever sense of identity there is seems loose, right now. Vague doubt strikes in the form of a thought "maybe im playing dead". Maybe its only a belief that its been seen that I is nowhere to be found in direct experience? Because nothing has happened. Theres looking for it, looking looking looking. Nothing to be found, nothing underneath sensations, nothing underneath thoughts theres just nothing. And is nothing something? Whats supposed to happen here, in this nothingness. Theres expectations about something happening, like a knowing, like really know that there is nothing. Then theres obviousness around that those expectations being as much assumed as the assumption of me.

Sorry for kind of takeing the stearing wheel and guiding this myself into the direction of doubt. Theres doubt in 2 directions right now. Doubt about dont settle here, go deeper, were not through, its a trick. In the other direction doubt about the not settleing is just a way to keeping on searching for something that isnt there. In truth there seem to either be settleing happening or not, haha. We'll see.

Its in form of thougts, wich per automatic isnt taken seriously, maybe as a way of avoiding them. Maybe because they really are just thoughts. ;)

Theres no oneness or anything and the "I thought" wants its oneness! (haha). A funny thought judgeing that Im just trying to sound like Tony Parsons but how can there be anyone here? I dont know what I am. Theres no one that can know, theres thoughts about it. Labels. Theres direct experience of "this". But theres really no one here, theres just typeing happening or not happening when it happends or dosnt happen. The rest is just bullshit.

" I " is an idea. Maybe its only understood on an intellectual level? I really dont know, and theres expectations about knowing this experiencially.

This is where Im at right now.

Sorry again for sneaking around, I already have picked up that youve been called Fran. Am I invited to calling you Fran?

Im Filip.

Love!

Hello Filip

Thanks for your post - wow! - lots there huh?!

Sorry again for sneaking around, I already have picked up that youve been called Fran. Am I invited to calling you Fran?

It's not a problem that you have looked around, it's a public forum after all! And yes, you are invited to call me Fran if you like - I answer to both lol :)

'My' understanding of 'me' is that its nothing but an unquestioned assumption. What ever sense of identity there is seems loose, right now. Vague doubt strikes in the form of a thought "maybe im playing dead". Maybe its only a belief that its been seen that I is nowhere to be found in direct experience?

Where do thoughts come from?
What is your understanding of a belief?

Because nothing has happened. Theres looking for it, looking looking looking. Nothing to be found, nothing underneath sensations, nothing underneath thoughts theres just nothing. And is nothing something? Whats supposed to happen here, in this nothingness. Theres expectations about something happening, like a knowing, like really know that there is nothing. Then theres obviousness around that those expectations being as much assumed as the assumption of me

What are you hoping/wishing/wanting/expecting to happen?
Is there really nothing? Perhaps you could explain what you mean a little bit more.

With love x

Hey!

Ready for the next load of lots of stuff? :)

Is there really nothing? Perhaps you could explain what you mean a little bit more.

Lets start here.

Fingers on the keyboard. Theres sensation of it, direct and just sort of, wosh, there. Theres nothing in shape of a me senseing it. The more the sensation is focused on, the more vibrant it is, theres aliveness, everywhere. Especially if I now close my eyes, theres alert, vibrant, aliveness everywhere and its hard to find really where the sensation of the fingers are or isnt, so theres not nothing, but theres not anything else but whats going on either. On a sight seeing level theres like vibrant pixels, like an antwar everywhere all the time. Eyes closed or not.

So thats always there, once noticed. And sort of impossible to get rid of until its forgotten.

Where do thoughts come from?

I have no idea, they just show up, often noticed kind of midthought. From nothing. In experience it seems like it just shows up in aliveness. There seems to be 2 sort of thoughts if I play with it. Thoughts that just come, or thoughts about thougts. Or kind of "commanded" thoughts. If I slow things down and sort of "decide" what thoughts to think, what sentences to say in my head. I notice that my tounge moves along a tiny bit aswell, it dosnt do that with the more seemingly "less commanded" thoughts. If I slow it down and sort of say things in my head in slowmotion, there seems to be control over it, alltho its like a quick before-thought narrating what will be said in the slowmotionthought, and then it dosnt happen until it happen. It really seems like theres control over it but its impossible to say that it really is as I cant find any real proof of it. The directness of it is that the thought is just happening. And they are just there. From nowhere.

What is your understanding of a belief?

My understanding of a belief is that its an idea, thought or concept that is believed/assumed/taken to be true. It manifests and roots down somewhere un-looked and is sort of part of the show/experience until its been examined deeply enough to not be real. Then it sort of is unbelieved automatically.

What are you hoping/wishing/wanting/expecting to happen?

Theres resistance to answering this, somehow it dosnt come out as effortlessly as the previous answers, wich is interesting.
Partly I dont really know, partly theres some shame or wanting to answer the right thing. To not want what I might want, so to speak. As its sort of overlooked. Like the resistance/coudyness is serving a perfect purpose of just brushing over this question, because its experienced as unclear or hard to answer. Like I dont really know.

So aliveness is there. Underneath everything, everytime theres some quiettime its there. Just oozing. Inbetween, behind, before, around. Its strongest when closeing eyes and watching thoughts or sensations directly. Thats the only thing that I really know, to be there. The experience of it, or that its just there.

Looking for a me, or a perciever of that aliveness or sensation or object, its just gone, nowhere to be found. Still theres a sense of a me or something pecieveing all those things, like "being aware of aliveness".

Theres expectations of there being a shift, a pop, awakening of seeing that theres really nothing but that aliveness. The end of sort of percieveing it from an outsideperspective, even tho there arent really any outsideperspective to be found. Its just THERE. Right now its just there. That the outside perspective will just be gone.

Theres expectations of an ease, a knowing, a stopping. Like a point of really knowing, stopping to search or stopping to look.

Theres expectations of things being more effortless, or there not being a problem with there being a sense of something takeing effort.

So theres expectations, an idea of a happening, a point in the story where it stops and is known that there is no one, experiencially so theres no question about it anymore.

I want more peace of mind, less thoughts. I want to just chill out with all this stuff.

So theres a wanting/hope/expectation of there being a point where it stops, and I relax, stop going at this investigation hardcorestyle every other day :) An idea of passing through a gate, a moment, and after thats done then that first step is taken and it will be known that somehow thats it.

A point where doubt will dissapear from whether or not awakening has happened or hasnt happen or if it matters or dosnt matter.


Thank you Fran!

Hiya

. If I slow things down and sort of "decide" what thoughts to think, what sentences to say in my head.

Can you really slow things down?
Can you decide what to think?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
If I ask you not to think about elephants, what's the first thing you think of?!

I'm away from home for a couple of days and having a bit of trouble with wifi! Apologies in advance if I can't post tomorrow

Love x

Hey Fran

Thanks for letting me know!

I woke up this morning after haveing read your message last night with a clear sense of YES, there is really a sense of me in here that thinks that its thinking. Wich might sound like bad news but theres a huge relief right now in seeing that.
Some serious "no self bypassing" going on here over the last months, only focuseing on whats clearly not being run by me, its like what sense of I there is have been clearly overlooked.

So today im doing the best I can to act from me. So this is the me writing you, or attempting to write you and its almost hilarious how much its slacking behind when trying to manageing everything from that point of view, especially what the body is up to.

Theres definetely mostly a sense of me in the head, as thoughts. And there is undeniably felt as the experience of me thinking some of the thoughts "in real time", with control over the outcome of the thoughts.

Wich is taken as amazing news. Like comeing out of the closet.

Can you really slow things down?
Can you decide what to think?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
If I ask you not to think about elephants, what's the first thing you think of?!

Ill investigate thinking thoughts some more.

Have a lovely weekend!

Excellent reporting!!

Looking forward to your exploration :)

xx

Hola Fran!
Wow so its only been one day since I wrote you last.

Can you really slow things down?
Can you decide what to think?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
If I ask you not to think about elephants, what's the first thing you think of?!

Ok.

So this is wild.

Short answer is NO.

Im a bit speeded up right now.

So reading the question, "can you decide what to think". Its being taken wildly serious, doing the best here to really try. The thought repeats whats read "can I decide what to think" followed > "ok lets decide what to think next", *looking around*. Theres absolutely no knowing of what is gonna be thought of next in form of just silent space. Then there migth be a thought labeling that space, or not, until a thought pops up. And THAT thought is about what to think about next and that thought is taken to have been choosen by someone when it was just a thought about what to choose, comeing from nowhere, like posting a suggestion. HILARIOUS, like a reaction to a reaction to a reaction. From NOWHERE. The thought comes ELEPHANTS, and theres laughing because of the circumstances of sitting here, the followup thought is " NO NOT ELEPHANTS, REALLY, is that the best thing to come up with out of all of the things to choose from if theres choice". (wich ofcourse is just a thought, makeing fun of itself, and its entertaining)

The same with thinking in slowmotion (drawing out the letters), or stopping thoughts, its just a reaction of a reaction, the thought comes from nowhere as a suggestion thought "lets think this next" and then it might be followed by a thought following that or the reaction might be takeing another direction like "no lets think this instead" and then that might be or might not be thought about.

And meanwhile the body is just doing all sorts of tiny movements all the time, theres really noooooo control. Sometimes theres a thought comeing after the body movement that causes some action. Say the head is moved in a direction, a cup is seen reminding me of coffee and theres an I thought "should I make more coffee?". That is followed by a reaction to that and a thought commenting on haveing made a decision. Its seen as there is no decision really its just reactions and actions.

Ever since yesterday, when somewhere along the watching thoughts there was an opening to a "I really dont know", sort of like proof, that I cant really say that the thought is being thought. Things loosened up and things are just very playful and hilarious right now. Includeing I thoughts.

xx!

Hola Filip!

Ever since yesterday, when somewhere along the watching thoughts there was an opening to a "I really don't know", sort of like proof, that I cant really say that the thought is being thought. Things loosened up and things are just very playful and hilarious right now. Including I thoughts

I really enjoyed reading your post, I feel the fun that you are having with this and I find I laugh along with you. Thanks :)

Yesterday you wrote:

There's definitely mostly a sense of me in the head, as thoughts. And there is undeniably felt as the experience of me thinking some of the thoughts "in real time", with control over the outcome of the thoughts.
Which is taken as amazing news. Like coming out of the closet

How would you rewrite this today?

Love x

Hey!

I find I laugh along with you. Thanks :)

Im glad, thanks for letting me know :)

So right now theres the sense and thought of "I lost it". Yesterday and today has been alot of fun, lightness, thoughts makeing fun of thoughts. Lots of giggleing and laughing just all by myself. Thought now saying "I knew then that there was no me","I want to go back". A thought reminds me "thats just a thought". Good thought! Golden star for you. Previous thought, BAD! Bad thought!

So apperantly theres still makeing fun of this. A thought saying "I dont wanna answer the question now because I have lost it". Thinking back there was no one there and there was no problem. Now theres supposed to be known that theres no one here now either so no one should care about these I thoughts. Says a thought, ofcourse, what else.

Labeling thoughts, "theres an I thought, theres an I want thought, theres an I dont want thought". Thoughts being on top of their thought game tonight, as they are noticed, instantly thoughts marked by followup thoughts.

How would you rewrite this today?

So, theres only a sense of me, as thoughts. And through writing this tonight they/"I'm" going nuts. Ive heard a couple of times about how before the "me" falls away it shows up superintense as a last fight for its life for a period. I notice hope/thoughts about it being whats going on. Its noticed that thats an expectation and just hoped to be an explanation of whats happening, just another story.

Right now there seems to be a calm, for a while as Ive just been sitting here.

Going back to whats here now. Its a bit unpleasent, but theres a sense of not careing about it. Thoughts dont seem to get anywhere really. Wich Im not sure about, thats an evaluation but it seems like it.

Theres just silence now. I feel like leaving this writeoffrant for now and report back tomorrow with more of an actual answer to the question. Thanks for reading.

Have a good night!

Good morning

Thank you for posting. Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts - there is the hope/expectation that they will calm down once the illusion of self is seen through, and this may happen. And it may not! Thoughts of losing 'it', thoughts of doubting it even happened or is happening, not uncommon, just thoughts to be seen through again and again.

You seem to have a good handle on 'thought', just a few questions to clarify:

Can you describe thought?
Can thought be heard?
Can thought be seen?
Can thought be thought?
Can thought be tasted?
Can thought be smelled?
Can thought be felt?
Or is thought simply known?
Is there a thinker?
If you ignore thoughts about what thought says thought is, what remains?

Going back to what's here now. Its a bit unpleasant, but there's a sense of not caring about it

Describe the sensation without the label 'unpleasant'. Is 'not caring about it' another thought?

There is no right or wrong here, just a constant looking, taking everything back to Direct Experience, picking it apart without analysing it (because that would be thinking about it of course!). Just the simplicity of 'is this my direct experience?'

Go gently

Love x

Morning!

there is the hope/expectation that they will calm down once the illusion of self is seen through

Yes, there is.

1Can you describe thought?
2Can thought be heard?
3Can thought be seen?
4Can thought be thought?
5Can thought be tasted?
6Can thought be smelled?
7Can thought be felt?
8Or is thought simply known?
9Is there a thinker?
10If you ignore thoughts about what thought says thought is, what remains?

1 - Thought is thought. Just like hearing is hearing. Describing it tho its sort of like a "fake" hearing/seeing/tasteing/smelling/feeling. With hearing seeming like the most similair. The sound of exhaleing can be imaginened/heard as thought and the experience of it is very similair as hearing it. The other direct perceptions can be thought/imagined aswell but more vague.

2 - No. Snapping my fingers next to my ear and the thought/imaginenation of it right after is not heard in the same way.

3 - No. Not through eyesight, similair to hearing.

4 - Hmm, a thought saying "hello", can be thought about in a sort of, "looking back at experienceing the thoughtsound of hello"-way, without just repeating hello again as a clone thought. Similair to the way of a thought about hearing the snap of fingers. So, yes? Its another thought tho, in its own unique directness. More vaguely tho, sort of like imaginening an image. A bit unclear here.

5 - No.

6 - No.

7 - No.

8 - Yes. Thought is known in a direct way when its thought.

9 - In directness theres no thinker, just thinking, perceptions through body and sparkling vibrant silence and aliveness

10 - Same.

Describe the sensation without the label 'unpleasant'. Is 'not caring about it' another thought?

Hard to describe, from memory. Unpleasent is a "summing things up" label that points to all sorts of sensations and movements, through thoughts/assumption. Right now thoughts are quite quiet. Theres sensations and looking around at them, judged by thought to be hard to put labels on. Theres a certain tightness in the chest and throat. Theres a certain sense of stuckness. Assumption of getting anywhere with this. Wich is translated and interpreted just through a thought, cant really find any truth to it other then a thought commenting that about it.

There is no right or wrong here, just a constant looking, taking everything back to Direct Experience, picking it apart without analysing it (because that would be thinking about it of course!). Just the simplicity of 'is this my direct experience?'

"look!" (thinking), senses, nothingness, aliveness, vibrant silence, body perceptions. "look!" nothingness, aliveness, vibrant silence, body perceptions. "look!" thought - nothing is happening. Isnt something supposed to happen" - seen as thought. nothingness, aliveness.

Isnt labeling that much and theres not many thoughts even. Theres sadness. Not sure where in the body or if its even sadness, labeled as it from thought. Alot of allowance to that labeling and seeing the labeling. Theres more of a low. Deep relaxation. More like a low, allowed sadness.

Theres some speculation about it, a tiny flashing judgeing thought that "just" dropping the thought analysis and the going back to direct experience is an escape. Thought saying "should dig deeper" wanting to really speed things up or expect things. Belief that this isnt enough. What ever this is. Looking.

There seems to be an effort to this, but when looking for it, it cant really be located. Its believed that "this", wich is labeled as "being present" takes an effort, is alot of work. Again, the label "unpleasent" even tho theres alot of space and silence right now. Cant really pinnpoint what makes it unpleasent, its just not what is wanted or expected. Even tho mind is extremely quiet, theres like no thoughts at all. Heart is beating, body warmth, sensations, hearing.

From sitting here for quite a while now theres thought about not much comeing out really. Still kind of sad. Wanting to go for a walk, will see if that happends or not once this message is submitted and the computer is turned off.

Thanks for all the reading! Much appriciated.

Love

Good afternoon

The sound of exhaling can be imagined/heard as thought and the experience of it is very similar as hearing it. The other direct perceptions can be thought/imagined as well but more vague.

Or maybe the exhalation is heard without a label, just as pure sound, and thought labels it 'exhaling'?

Thought is known in a direct way when its thought

Is there another way for thought to be known?

In directness there's no thinker, just thinking, perceptions through body and sparkling vibrant silence and aliveness

Lovely :)

Not sure where in the body or if its even sadness, labelled as it from thought

Sitting quietly with eyes closed, can different parts of the body be found/experienced?
Sitting quietly, listening, can ears be felt as separate from any other body part?
What is the experience of sitting?

Belief that this isn't enough. What ever this is. Looking.

What could possibly be missing? Is there a direct experience of something waiting to happen, something hidden that will manifest at some point? Is such a thing possible?

Your willingness to keep looking is much appreciated, as is your honest reporting. This process takes as long as it takes. I could throw a lot more questions at you, but my feeling is that you are better served by slowing it down a little. This may not be right!!

Go gently and with love

xx

Evening and thank you Fran. Appriciation overload right now!

The gift of being able to talk and write here is already clearing things up in its own way. Getting abit bleedy here but its giving birth to a way to express and communicate this from alittle different angle. Also noticing an opening to wanting to do that, wich is sort of beautiful. Havent felt drawn to anything else but to just go at this in some obsessed isolationstyle. I do feel very greatful for this and these days already. Just warm fuzzy greatfulness here, now! Wanting to express that.

Is there another way for thought to be known?

Not sure, curiosity of experienceing thoughts wihtout the concept of what a thought is, tricky. Thoughts makeing just non word "sounds" now to try and help the investigation, haha. Sometimes they are very funny. While at it theres seems to be some love for thoughts here too :)

Sitting quietly with eyes closed, can different parts of the body be found/experienced?
Sitting quietly, listening, can ears be felt as separate from any other body part?
What is the experience of sitting?

Earlier this evening I took a long shower in total darkness and this question of yours is almost to perfect timing to not merge with the memory of that. I noticed how actual decision were hard to pinnpoint when watching closely, when the decision to turn off the water was made for example. It gently struck me how there was just sensation of the hand turning the water off, and the hand isnt really the hand without knowing or assumeing that its the hand. Its just that sensation, whatever that is. Without eyes the abstractness of it all seemed more direct and clear.

With eyes closed, its somehow easier to see that. Asking the question is there a me + ears, theres just the sensation of ears. Without really imagening ears theres just the sensation. And theres an assumption of more of there being a center from the eyes, percieveing the sensations kind of. When its really just the sensations around the eyes and sensations of eyebowls moveing around in darkness behind the lids. (Apperantly) Together with just the habit of seing the fingers moveing on the keyboard, with eyes closed they arent really there, and its hard to pinnpoint any me + finger sensations. Theres just eyesensations and fingersensations and the kind of imaginenation of the distance between the two objects. When theres just direct senseing of it. Its the same with eyes opened but somehow its clearer with eyes closed.

What could possibly be missing? Is there a direct experience of something waiting to happen, something hidden that will manifest at some point? Is such a thing possible?

Ofcourse not, arguing with the directness of what is in its own isnessway is kind of hard :)


Again thank you and goodnight!