The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I grasped the knowledge of truth very well intelectually but i dare not drop the identification, i still react and resist and if i would be a person, i still identify, i am afraid i will stay in the illusion of the seperate "i" that i wont be able to see through the illusion. I just want "my mind" be silent and i want to know without any doubt who i am really and i desire the peace of my real infinite reality.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I want "my" identification with "myself" evaporate. I want to lose interest in the story of the "I". I want to lose interest in the little noise/voice in the mind and i want to lose interest in the illuson of the 5 senses. I want to ignore all thoughts(the basis of my hypnotic illusiory state). I hope you help.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
I have read already spiritual books and i have also watched videos from people who realized that they are illusions. (Three people is my "spiritual guide" Peter Dziuban, Jac Okeeffe, and Adam Oakley)

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
10

Hi Blackjack13,

My name is Daniel, and I would be glad to explore this together :)

Few guidelines for the process:
1. Post once a day or every second day. If for any reason you need more time, let me know.
2. Answer only from direct experience (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts).
3. Please put aside all spiritual teachings, books and videos for the time of our conversation.
4. Use the quote function when replying, to highlight the question being answered. Instructions here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you agree with the above and feel ready, we can start!

Cheers,
Daniel

Hi Daniel
I am ready to start.

Hi Daniel
I am ready to start.

Great! So how should I call you? Should we stick with Blackjack13, or you have another name you prefer to use?

On another note, let's get straight to the point.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I want "my" identification with "myself" evaporate. I want to lose interest in the story of the "I". I want to lose interest in the little noise/voice in the mind and i want to lose interest in the illuson of the 5 senses. I want to ignore all thoughts(the basis of my hypnotic illusiory state). I hope you help.

When you say, "I want my identification with myself evaporate", what do you mean by myself exactly? Where can you locate this self? What is the nature of it? Is it soft, hard, does it have any color, shape or form?

I want to lose interest in the story of the "I"

Ok, so is the I at the beginning of the sentence different than the I at the end? If yes, how?

On a general note, like most of the ones seeking "liberation", there are almost always a set of expectations about how this should look like after the illusion is seen through. But the expectations of how it should be, are based on other people's experiences, not ours, and so it could or could not be like that. Most of the time it isn't.
So I would like to ask you to put aside all expectations about how it will be, how will you feel, how your life will be for now, and just be open to whatever might occur along the way.

Take your time with the questions asked above, and let me know when you have an answer. Remember to look in direct experience, not philosophical concepts.

Cheers,
Daniel

Please call me Peter.

Forgive me if sometimes iam not writingclearly but english is not my main language.

Well its a good question who or what i am really, because i am not sure, of course i think/believe i am this body called Peter, but after reading so much "spiritual stuff" i suspect it is not the case, but somehow i still believe that i am Peter. All i wrote to you what i want really is not me who want it but after i read many "spiritualbook" i suspect i should want these things for "liberation". But iam so confused i dont know what i really want and who is that " me" who want anything...

I suggest its not different, the same i wants liberation from the same i.

Yes i think i have way to much expectations, its a good idea to really drop any expectations and let it be a focus my real experience and feeling not on others. I think i am doing way to much planning and thinking rather than feeling and experiencing.

Thats it for now,

Peter

There is one more thing i am not sure in.
When you ask any question i dont really know is it me who honestly answer to you from a direct experience or i just answer you from what i have read from books. Can i ignore my previous knowkedge about "liberation"?

Hi Peter,

Good to read back from you. Great job so far!

Forgive me if sometimes iam not writingclearly but english is not my main language.

Don't worry, I can understand what you are saying. If now, I will ask for clarifications.

Well its a good question who or what i am really, because i am not sure, of course i think/believe i am this body called Peter, but after reading so much "spiritual stuff" i suspect it is not the case, but somehow i still believe that i am Peter.

Let's leave what you've read aside, so we can check and see for sure, not from what others said it should be.
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the center or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Take your time and have a look!

All i wrote to you what i want really is not me who want it but after i read many "spiritualbook" i suspect i should want these things for "liberation". But iam so confused i dont know what i really want and who is that " me" who want anything..

Good, confusion is a great place to be, because anything is possible.

When you ask any question i dont really know is it me who honestly answer to you from a direct experience or i just answer you from what i have read from books. Can i ignore my previous knowkedge about "liberation"?

Yes, we are only interested in what you experience directly. Whatever you read in books may or may not be true, so leave that aside for now, and just let me know what you see, hear, smell, taste etc? Clear?

Cheers,
Daniel

Daniel,

Well honestly whatever i do, i think and i feel that i am this body called Peter, i can see i am this body and it feels like a center, and it is absolutely believed that it is me. Many times i look into the mirror and i am thinking that this is me. I also have memorys about this body, believed that its my body.when i experience this "me" i can see and think that it is me i can touch my bodyparts and it feels like i have some kind of free will i can decide to do such things as touch my body or walk or whatever i think i want to do, but i know that this free will is limited because many things i cannot choose to do, because many things just happens by itself for example i cannot choose to feel happy or sad or afraid, these things are the results of different events, and happenings. Sometimes i feel depression or anxiety or fear without knowing why i feel those things i just know i dont like to feel those feelings.. Its like there is an awarenes inside the body and that i partially control the movements of the body and i can focus on different parts of the body and different feeling of the body. It is beleived that i am this whole body. Its feels like seperate from others and from the world. I feel like i own my experiences and feelings because if there is pain or fear or any bad feeling, that really feels bad and hurts me but i cannot feel other bodies physical pain or others fear but i can feel mine. And that makes it mine.
I think thats how i believe

Peter

Hi Peter,

Please use the quote function, as it would be much easier to read and understand each other.

Well honestly whatever i do, i think and i feel that i am this body called Peter, i can see i am this body and it feels like a center, and it is absolutely believed that it is me.

So there is a belief that you are the body. What is a belief Peter? How is a belief different than a thought?

Many times i look into the mirror and i am thinking that this is me.

you are thinking you are the body. Have another look at the mirror, this time without applying any labels or any mental interpretations on what you see.
For example: take a mirror, look into it and tell me what you see directly, without interpretation.

I also have memorys about this body, believed that its my body

.
What is a memory? When you observe it, how is a memory different than a thought?

when i experience this "me" i can see and think that it is me i can touch my bodyparts

Imagine this for a second:
You think you are your body. We take a leg off. Are you "less" you? Are you less Peter? We continue, and we take both legs and arms off? How about now, are you less you? Then if we keep removing body parts, what is the point in which if we keep removing, you will be no longer "you"?

and it feels like i have some kind of free will i can decide to do such things as touch my body or walk or whatever i think i want to do, but i know that this free will is limited because many things i cannot choose to do, because many things just happens by itself for example i cannot choose to feel happy or sad or afraid, these things are the results of different events, and happenings.

Brilliant!
Try this now:
Get up and walk a few steps around the room. Don't think, take a look. What do you notice, without the running commentary claiming ownership of the experience? Is there anyone in charge of these steps, is there a Peter choosing when putting one foot in front of the other?

Sometimes i feel depression or anxiety or fear without knowing why i feel those things i just know i dont like to feel those feelings.. Its like there is an awarenes inside the body and that i partially control the movements of the body and i can focus on different parts of the body and different feeling of the body. It is beleived that i am this whole body. Its feels like seperate from others and from the world. I feel like i own my experiences and feelings because if there is pain or fear or any bad feeling, that really feels bad and hurts me but i cannot feel other bodies physical pain or others fear but i can feel mine. And that makes it mine.

Let's have a look into fear and anxiety after we cover the first part.

I think thats how i believe

you think that is how you believe. So what if this is all just a bunch of thoughts? What if "you" are just another thought, that is taken to be real?

Look and tell me what you see.

Cheers,
Daniel

Hi Daniel

.
So there is a belief that you are the body. What is a belief Peter? How is a belief different than a thought?

Well, from books i already have the knowledge that beliefs are a bunch of thoughts but its just a knowledge i am not sure is it really the case.

.
you are thinking you are the body. Have another look at the mirror, this time without applying any labels or any mental interpretations on what you see.
For example: take a mirror, look into it and tell me what you see directly, without interpretation.

I look into the mirror and i just see an image wich is a thought wich i believe is "me".

. What is a memory? When you observe it, how is a memory different than a thought?

I already know from books that memory is what causes that i beleive that time and space is real and if there would be no memory then the whole world would not even appear. I also know that memory=image=imagination=thoughtsvv=sound are one and the same thing.

. Imagine this for a second:
You think you are your body. We take a leg off. Are you "less" you? Are you less Peter? We continue, and we take both legs and arms off? How about now, are you less you? Then if we keep removing body parts, what is the point in which if we keep removing, you will be no longer "you"?

Yes i know this too that without any parts of the body i am still here that i am. Intelluctually it sounds good but when there is a great pain wich affects the body then i drop my knowledge about it and i just feel the intense pain, or cold or any other " hellish" thing. And then it doesnot matter wheter with or without the bodyparts i am here but i focus on the bad feelings and sometimes i cant stand them. Because they are so intense.

.
Brilliant!
Try this now:
Get up and walk a few steps around the room. Don't think, take a look. What do you notice, without the running commentary claiming ownership of the experience? Is there anyone in charge of these steps, is there a Peter choosing when putting one foot in front of the other?

Yes if i just walk without focusing on the walking, then it seems that walking can happen by itself.

One more thing i would like to tell you honestly that i have way too much knowledge and i just feel that is nothing new can be said to me. What i come to understand that knowledge wont change my stubborn beliefs in the illusion. I believe in the illusion evwn if i know that everything is titally illusion and i dont know what could change it?

. you think that is how you believe. So what if this is all just a bunch of thoughts? What if "you" are just another thought, that is taken to be real?

Intellectually i already know for long that i and everything else in the universe is just an illusion, non existent thoughts, but somehow knowing it doesent change to not taken to be real. Somehow things are believed that they are still real, and solid..

I am just trying to be honest
Peter

Hi Peter,

I appreciate your honesty. Let's keep going.

On your first post, you said:

I want to ignore all thoughts(the basis of my hypnotic illusiory state).

What is wrong with thoughts? Are thoughts not part of Life?

Do you already have an image of how awakening will look? Describe please.


Cheers,
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

. What is wrong with thoughts? Are thoughts not part of Life?

I dont think that thoughts are wrong, they are just hypnotic and misleading, "all thoughts are lies" "the mind distorts reality" "when thoughts are beleived that they are true then there a seperate world appears" "thought creates time and space , distance and therefore seperateness"... Basically thats what i think about thoughts.

. Do you already have an image of how awakening will look? Describe please.

Well i know that the mind creates thoughts, images, ideas, expectations and future plans, but if i suspect that there is no time and no space then there is no future or past and therefore there nothing can happen in a socalled future, so awakening can never happen in the future.. Right?
My idea about awakening is that in the now at some point when " i" will decide or choose to dont let to believe lies/thoughts then i realize that i am already awareness and awake. And i " will" simply ignore the idea that i am a person. I just "will" draw away my attention from the i-thought and i-story and then i suspect my true nature awareness obviously " will" reveal itself. I will rest as awareness "nothingness" wich is i am already so it will not be a happening but a recognition that i am not a person, what i falsely still believe.
Basically thats it although i know that awakening has nothing to do with the personalself expect to see the personal self as a nonexistent illusion.
What is my true nature if i am not a person? I dont know. Kind of indescribable "infinite nothingness" maybe.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I dont think that thoughts are wrong, they are just hypnotic and misleading, "all thoughts are lies" "the mind distorts reality" "when thoughts are beleived that they are true then there a seperate world appears" "thought creates time and space , distance and therefore seperateness"... Basically thats what i think about thoughts.

"that's what you THINK about thoughts" So there are thoughts, and then you attach the label to them "hypnotic and misleading". Do these labels affect, or change thoughts in any way? Can you control thoughts? Look at thoughts for a while. Please take a moment and write down only what you get from direct experience.

My idea about awakening is that in the now at some point when " i" will decide or choose to dont let to believe lies/thoughts then i realize that i am already awareness and awake.

Why not decide now? Why postpone it at some point in some future?

You said earlier that when you walk around and focus on what is actually happening, walking happens by itself. Are we clear on that?

Close your eyes. Think of a car. Did you choose what brand the car is, or it just came along? Did you choose the color of the car, or it just came along? Can you choose or decide upon anything? Look and write down what you notice.

And i " will" simply ignore the idea that i am a person. I just "will" draw away my attention from the i-thought and i-story and then i suspect my true nature awareness obviously " will" reveal itself. I will rest as awareness "nothingness" wich is i am already so it will not be a happening but a recognition that i am not a person, what i falsely still believe.

You can't ignore the idea that you are a person, because the you that wants to ignore is an idea.
you can't draw away your attention from the i-thought because you are a thought.
Your true nature will not reveal itself because there will be no one to notice.

What feelings do these statements bring up in the body? Describe please.

Basically thats it although i know that awakening has nothing to do with the personalself expect to see the personal self as a nonexistent illusion.
What is my true nature if i am not a person? I dont know. Kind of indescribable "infinite nothingness" maybe.

Overall, it's great to have these expectations written down, so we can put them aside. They might or might not turn right, but there is only one way to find out: LOOK AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.

Now, In direct experience, no mirror this time, please tell me how do you experience the body?


Cheers,
Daniel

Hi daniel,

. Do these labels affect, or change thoughts in any way? Can you control thoughts?

You are right, i cant control anything or any thought, i accept that even what i believe that i can control or choose to do , that too is really happens by itself.
I close my eyes and whether i want any thought, sound or any experience or not.. These things happen whether i want or not.


"Why not decide now? Why postpone it at some point in some future?"

Its a very good question,
Maybe i am afraid. Or i subconsciously still believe that what i know just cant be true. And i have the worst addiction of all. The addiction of delaying, the addiction of helplessness, the addiction of "i cant decide" "i cant choose". Its like jumping into cold water, you can walk into it gradually which can take for an hour or you can jump immidiately. I dare not jump immidiately into the unknown. I want to be secured by the known. I dare not drop/leave the comfort of the calculability.

. Close your eyes. Think of a car. Did you choose what brand the car is, or it just came along? Did you choose the color of the car, or it just came along? Can you choose or decide upon anything? Look and write down what you notice

When i think of a car the sound or thought of a car just come up and its very cloudy. And i dont choose what car, just a foggy car, the image/memory of what i have propably seen once.

.
You can't ignore the idea that you are a person, because the you that wants to ignore is an idea.
you can't draw away your attention from the i-thought because you are a thought.
Your true nature will not reveal itself because there will be no one to notice.

What feelings do these statements bring up in the body? Describe please

Iknow that the person cant ignore anything, but i suppose that my true nature already ignores all thoughts. I just should direct my focus/attention to my real self. When i say i, then i mean my undiscribeable self.

What usually comes up when i read these kind of words , statements is great resistance, anxiety, doubt , excitement of how it will be, and the feeling that "i cant do anything".

. LOOK AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.

Now, In direct experience, no mirror this time, please tell me how do you experience the body?

I know i rather stay in the illusion and continue to ask questions and " seek for truth" i just continue to distract myself from my real nature., i try to keep the comfort of the mind because for the mind these ideas are insane and crazy.
I just dare not step into the direct experience, i feel like i dare not or dont want to jump into cold water. "I am coward". Have no courage.
Right now i can see that if i dispart the 5 senses and i just observe them apart, then the body of i also kind of dissolves. Only the overall i-thought tries to keep it secured. And it does

Peter

Hi Peter,

Sorry for the delay, I was flying yesterday with no access to internet, but it should be fine now.
It is great reading what you observe. Let.s keep the fire burning :)

i accept that even what i believe that i can
control or choose to do , that too is really happens by itself.
I close my eyes and whether i want any thought, sound or any experience or not.. These things happen whether i want or not.

Acceptance is still a thought, isn.t it? Do you SEE it to be like this? Are we clear now that the "you" can.t control anything?

I

ts a very good question,
Maybe i am afraid. Or i subconsciously still believe that what i know just cant be true. And i have the worst addiction of all. The addiction of delaying, the addiction of helplessness, the addiction of "i cant decide" "i cant choose". Its like jumping into cold water, you can walk into it gradually which can take for an hour or you can jump immidiately. I dare not jump immidiately into the unknown. I want to be secured by the known. I dare not drop/leave the comfort of the calculability.

Great stuff. Security is a key thing for the mind. It wants to grip and hold it as much as possible.

. Close your eyes. Think of a car. Did you choose what brand the car is, or it just came along? Did you choose the color of the car, or it just came along? Can you choose or decide upon anything? Look and write down what you notice

When i think of a car the sound or thought of a car just come up and its very cloudy. And i dont choose what car, just a foggy car, the image/memory of what i have propably seen once.

Good one!

What usually comes up when i read these kind of words , statements is great resistance, anxiety, doubt , excitement of how it will be, and the feeling that "i cant do anything".

Great! Now, since you mentioned fear, resistance, anxiety, have a look at this exercice and tell me what you see:

In order to know fear we have to know resistance. Fear is resistance and ‘I don’t like’. Turn towards this feeling of fear so completely, so fully, allow it into you without the slightest trace of resistance – then turn around and see what remains of the fear. Can you allow this fear so completely, even with the possibility that it might annihilate you? Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it? For who or what is it a problem that there is fear? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened.
What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this fear labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called fear? Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation fear? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is fear’, ‘this is unpleasant’ or ‘this has been here for so long’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were fear? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought? The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?

LOOK AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.

Now, In direct experience, no mirror this time, please tell me how do you experience the body?

I know i rather stay in the illusion and continue to ask questions and " seek for truth" i just continue to distract myself from my real nature., i try to keep the comfort of the mind because for the mind these ideas are insane and crazy.
I just dare not step into the direct experience, i feel like i dare not or dont want to jump into cold water. "I am coward". Have no courage.
Right now i can see that if i dispart the 5 senses and i just observe them apart, then the body of i also kind of dissolves. Only the overall i-thought tries to keep it secured. And it does
[/quote]
Peter[/quote]

Good. Look even closer. When you sit on a chair, do you experience a chair, or just a sensation? With eyes closed, can you point the spot where the you ends and the chair begins?


Cheers,
Daniel