The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I want to make some progress with my spiritual path. I feel like I stalled a while ago. I sometimes get meditation practices going for a while, but always lose interest eventually. I feel like if I put my mind to it, I could make some real progress quite quickly, however, since I am lacking some serious discipline at the moment, I hope someone keeping me accountable might help. Not to say I want a babysitter, or that I expect my guide to do all the work for me, just that it would help to have someone point the way, so to speak.

So yes, I want to make progress!

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Okay, full honesty here, I've been through some massive life changes recently. If you had have asked me even six months ago what I wanted I would have given the whole, 'To become awakened/enlightened! To feel amazing all the time! To have extremely blissful experiences!' Now don't get me wrong, all of those things would be most welcome! But I'm learning the hard way that everything is impermanent, and anything can change at any given moment. What I'm more interested in now is, I guess, learning how to surf the waves of experience? Instead of getting caught up in and identifying with everything. I think being able to see that I was no self would help a lot with this. I also want to learn to become present, properly present, because the present is all that is truly available to us. Again, I think seeing I'm no self would help me surrender more to the present.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I became interested in spirituality at a young age, around 13, after reading 'Way of the Peaceful Warrior'. I guess I can still be considered young now, being 25, however, I feel like I've made very little permanent progress. I realised the other day how little I've achieved in terms of spirituality, and I looked to the future and could see myself staying the same and never getting anywhere. Basically I like reading about a lot of this stuff, but I have a lot of resistance to actually sitting down and meditating, and there seem to be so many paths and techniques, its difficult to choose one. I think its time I stuck with one thing, direct pointing, and take it as far as I can possibly take it. Basically, its time for action!

Sorry, got a bit sidetracked there. I have done some formal meditation, mainly on the three characteristics (from Dharma Overground), I've also done some kundalini meditation and gotten some energy up the spine and what not, I've even done some self guided direct pointing and seen brief glimpses of the whole no-self thing. You'll probably notice the common theme here: a lot of dipping my toe in the water, but very little diving in.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 9

Hi Jett,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed! Thanks for your clear and personal introduction. Seems to me you've come to the right place. I'd gladly work with you here. I've been on a vacation from guiding for a while, but I'm happy to get going again.

Have you read some of the other threads here on the forum? Are you familiar with the way we work here?

Are you prepared to devote some time each day to really look deeply into this?
Are you willing to stop theorizing, speculation, procrastination and go for it?

The invitation here is basically: for the duration of this conversation on this forum, make this the most important thing ever. Find out, once and for all, what is really going on.

Let me know what you think about the points mentioned above and we can get going. This is totally doable, but it takes a willingness to be honest and somewhat unrelenting in your investigation. Are you ready for this?

FYI- I am in the GMT+1 timezone (Northern Europe).

Hi Damon,

Great to hear from you! Thank you for responding so quickly, and thank you for offering to be my guide :)

I have read through quite a few threads here, so I am definitely familiar with the way things work.

In answer to your questions:

Are you prepared to devote some time each day to really look deeply into this?

Yes, absolutely! I wonder, would you suggest I do any sort of 'formal' meditation along with this? Or will just sitting quietly and investigating the questions and ideas you give me be sufficient?

Are you willing to stop theorizing, speculation, procrastination and go for it?

In answer to this question: 100% yes! I think the time has well and truly come for me to take some proper action. I'm ready to dive in fully with this investigation, full throttle!

I am a little apprehensive, and a lot excited, and absolutely ready to get going with this. I promise to be unrelenting in my investigation, and to see this through to the end! I will make this the most important thing for me, because the truth is the most important thing, no matter what it is.

No worries in the time zone, I don't know if you saw but I am in Australia. I think most people here say to try and post once a day so I'll definitely be able to do that (or I'll let you know if there is some reason I can't).

Thanks once again Damon!

would you suggest I do any sort of 'formal' meditation along with this?

Nope, I certainly would not suggest that at all!

There's nothing wrong with meditation of course, in fact it's quite beneficial in many ways, but it's got as much to do with this as brushing your teeth or walking your dog.

Or will just sitting quietly and investigating the questions and ideas you give me be sufficient?

Sitting in silence and examining the pointers given will be helpful, absolutely, but it is also important to investigate your experience on a moment-to-moment basis, whatever it is you are doing. We will be looking for the thing we call me or self in every nook and cranny of your experience, nothing excluded.

In answer to this question: 100% yes! I think the time has well and truly come for me to take some proper action. I'm ready to dive in fully with this investigation, full throttle!

I am a little apprehensive, and a lot excited, and absolutely ready to get going with this. I promise to be unrelenting in my investigation, and to see this through to the end! I will make this the most important thing for me, because the truth is the most important thing, no matter what it is.

Wonderful! That kind of spirit will do the job!

No worries in the time zone, I don't know if you saw but I am in Australia. I think most people here say to try and post once a day so I'll definitely be able to do that (or I'll let you know if there is some reason I can't).

Once a day is not an absolute requirement as far as I am concerned, just make sure you keep the momentum going by engaging this fully.

So now we've gotten past all the formalities, let's dive in!

There's some interesting bits in your introductory post which I'd like you to take a closer look at:

I feel like I've made very little permanent progress

I realised the other day how little I've achieved in terms of spirituality

What does progress "on the spiritual" path look like to you? What is it you are really looking for here?
What is to be achieved exactly?
Is there something that you want to be added to your life, to your experience that you are currently lacking somehow?
Is what you consider as "spirituality" a measureable thing that you can become good. Is it a contest?

I've even done some self guided direct pointing and seen brief glimpses of the whole no-self thing.

Tell me more about this- how did you do this and what did you glimpse?

Hi Damon,

Sitting in silence and examining the pointers given will be helpful, absolutely, but it is also important to investigate your experience on a moment-to-moment basis, whatever it is you are doing.

Okay, no worries, that's all clear to me and makes a lot of sense :)

just make sure you keep the momentum going by engaging this fully

Yes, I can see how momentum would be important for something like this. I will be sure to keep investigating everything constantly.

Okay, on to your questions!

What does progress "on the spiritual" path look like to you? What is it you are really looking for here? What is to be achieved exactly?

So basically my idea of progress in spirituality would be measured by how relaxed and calm I feel? How much life can rattle me, and how much I can get lost in my story. How much I fear things. I guess there is also a part of me, although it always seems 'taboo' to say this, that measures progress by any 'big' spiritual experiences I've had. Like, the whole 'big awakening moment' would be a sign of progress, a sign that I was doing something right.

Basically from spirituality I'm looking for an ending to suffering and fear, and the answers to all the questions about life and death I have. But, in a nutshell, I would say I want an end to suffering.

Is there something that you want to be added to your life, to your experience that you are currently lacking somehow?

Yes, life is hard! I want it to not be hard! :D I know I sound like a whiny kid, but that's what it boils down to. I want to not suffer, I want to feel peace, I want to not fear things. Right now I feel like I'm being buffeted around by life, like ups and downs happen and I have no control over those things, but they have control over me. If something terrible happens i.e. if a family member died, I have no control over that or my response to it really. That sucks, in fact its terrifying! I never know what's coming and it makes it impossible for me to relax. Haha :D I guess I wouldn't care if I had control if I didn't think things could hurt me, but right now they do and that makes me suffer.

Is what you consider as "spirituality" a measureable thing that you can become good. Is it a contest?

Hm, that's a good question! I guess I do believe it can be measured in some ways. I only really think I would measure spirituality in the sense of 'is this person awakened? Have they experienced enlightenment?' Otherwise I think people are just sort of on the path in different locations, but it's almost impossible to tell where.

So I guess I would say, I measure spirituality only by its end goal, and I've defined that goal as 'awakening'.

Thanks Damon :)

Thanks for taking a look at your expectations about this.

Now- it's perfectly normal to come here with all sorts of ideas and stories about 'awakening' and 'enlightenment' and what that would be like. The funny thing is that- and you will get to the point where you will see this for yourself- the real thing is actually nothing like you'd imagine.

So my invitation to you is- whatever ideas or notions you might have around waking up, set them aside for the time being.

The only thing that matters for this investigation is your actual, concrete moment-to-moment experience of reality as it is right now, already.

Just that.

There's something you mentioned in your first post that I'd still like you to clarify, so I can get an idea of where you are at:

I've even done some self guided direct pointing and seen brief glimpses of the whole no-self thing.

Tell me more about this- how did you do this and what did you glimpse?

Don't be afraid to get the answers wrong, just be as honest and clear as possible about this.

What is this "no-self thing" that you've gotten glimpses of? Can you describe it?

Hi Damon,

Okay, for the sake of this investigation, I will put aside all my ideas and thought about what constitutes enlightenment. I was thinking about that a lot today actually.

My apologies, I totally meant to answer that last question but then forgot!

Tell me more about this- how did you do this and what did you glimpse?

I basically have done some self-guided inquiry through reading some of the threads in the book from this website, as well as reading works and doing exercises by people like Greg Goode and Rupert Spira. Typically it was looking at questions that guides or the authors posed, and then thinking alot about them and trying to see how what they said related to my direct experience. i.e. "is there a self existing in this moment?' and then I would look for a self.

When I've looked for the self, I have had a couple moments of really 'getting' it. I can really only describe it in physical terms I guess, because if I tried to verbalise it in my mind, it became slippery and I felt like I would lose it. But physically it felt like the center of me kind of disappeared, there was some overwhelming joy, and a lot of relieved laughter. When I say the center of me disappeared, in a very light way I felt like I was the center of all life around me. It wasn't a super intense feeling, just a light relaxation. Another time I felt so intensely present that it was like riding a rubbish bus in traffic was about the most spiritual experience possible. The silence was overwhelming. But as I say, these experiences come and go, and don't seem to have any real impact on my day to day thoughts and feelings.

Jett :)

Ok, perfect. Sounds like you've already started this process by yourself. Let's see if we can dig deeper.

Forget about extraordinary experiences for a bit and let's simply look at what is simply, ordinarily, already the case, shall we?

Right now, when you look for a self, what is here? What do you look for when you look for a self? Where do you look exactly?

Hi Damon,

Forget about extraordinary experiences for a bit and let's simply look at what is simply, ordinarily, already the case, shall we?

Okay, sounds good. I can set all that aside for now. I'll focus on present experiences.

Right now, when you look for a self, what is here?

When I look for a self, I see 'me'. Upon further investigation, it seems that 'me' is what life is happening to. Its what makes me different to other people, animals, and things. No other thing has the same experiences I do, and no one else has my exact personality or view of life. I guess also I guess my self would also be all the things that I alone feel. If I feel angry, no one else feels my anger, also my self is made up of my thoughts, as no one else has the thoughts I do.

There is the physical side also. I control my body, or rather, my brain sends the signals needed to control my body.

I guess my self would be made up of all the things that I alone experience. Also, there is just an undeniable feeling of 'I-ness' in my life. I feel like 'I' am here as a separate person.

What do you look for when you look for a self?

The things I listed above mainly. Experiences, thoughts and emotions that are unique to me alone. As well as just the feeling of being separate from everything around me. I am not a tree or a flower, I am Jett, an individual human being.

Where do you look exactly?

To find a separate self, I look to the things that make me different. My body, my mind, my brain, and my emotions. My unique experiences as well.

I hope you don't mind Damon, I'm trying to be fairly thorough with this investigation, I have a tendency to think I've grasped things too quickly and rush through them. I don't want to do that this time! Haha, there we go, that sentence is a perfect example of 'me-ness' I guess?

Jett :)

I hope you don't mind Damon, I'm trying to be fairly thorough with this investigation, I have a tendency to think I've grasped things too quickly and rush through them. I don't want to do that this time!

Hahaha, no- I don't mind. Anything other than extreme thoroughness won't do- so keep it up!

There's so many excellent entry points for deeper investigation in this last post of yours, it will keep us occupied for a while.

Let's take a step by step approach.

When I look for a self, I see 'me'.

Hmmm... can you elaborate? What is it you actually see when you see a me? What is the me-ness of what you see?

Upon further investigation, it seems that 'me' is what life is happening to. Its what makes me different to other people, animals, and things. No other thing has the same experiences I do, and no one else has my exact personality or view of life. I guess also I guess my self would also be all the things that I alone feel. If I feel angry, no one else feels my anger, also my self is made up of my thoughts, as no one else has the thoughts I do.

If your self is your personality, your view of life, all the things you feel and think, then what is that YOU to whom those things belong? What owns these experiences, thoughts, feelings? Can you spend some time observing that?

Hi Damon,

Awesome, I'll continue to be super thorough then! :)

Okay, onto your questions:

What is it you actually see when you see a me? What is the me-ness of what you see?

Ah, that's a hard one! So I guess as I said, when I see a 'me', I see all those things I listed, my body, my thoughts, my personality, and my experiences. The 'me-ness' is all these things put together and they become a kind of amalgamation of 'things the make Jett'.

Having reflected on it alot today, I'm having more trouble than usual pinpointing what exactly this me is. I said above its like an amalgamation of personality, thoughts, etc, however, I don't know what its borders are. I mean, you can point to the borders of a physical body, but where are the borders of the mind, or an experience? What I'm getting at is, I'm used to thinking of 'me' as a container for the self, but now I'm not sure how I could properly define the boundaries.

If your self is your personality, your view of life, all the things you feel and think, then what is that YOU to whom those things belong? What owns these experiences, thoughts, feelings? Can you spend some time observing that?

You don't hold back Damon! That's a tough question, but I like it! :D

I've been thinking about this all day, as well as observing my experiences. So far, I'm having trouble finding where exactly the link between an experience that is happening, and the self it happens too. I mean, I want to say 'I' own these experiences, but going off what I said previously, I don't know exactly how a thought, or personality, or memory could own anything, since they;re all kind of things in themselves! Certainly a feeling could arise in relation to an experience, but there's no way it could own it.

Hmm, I will keep observing this!

Jett :)

I don't know exactly how a thought, or personality, or memory could own anything, since they;re all kind of things in themselves! Certainly a feeling could arise in relation to an experience, but there's no way it could own it.

Great observation!

Now look again. Can you find an actual owner of thoughts, feelings, memories? Can you find an owner of the personality you describe?

I've been thinking about this all day, as well as observing my experiences. So far, I'm having trouble finding where exactly the link between an experience that is happening, and the self it happens too.

Hmmm, yes. Now isn't it interesting that the way in which our language and thoughts are often structured constantly implies this split between what is happening and a self separate from it? What's going on here?

To get back to the other entry points in your earlier post. There's enough material to keep you busy for quite a while here.

Its what makes me different to other people, animals, and things. No other thing has the same experiences I do, and no one else has my exact personality or view of life. I guess also I guess my self would also be all the things that I alone feel. If I feel angry, no one else feels my anger, also my self is made up of my thoughts, as no one else has the thoughts I do.

Now, summon some of that thoroughness of yours and look again, at what is actually being experienced.

When you observe what appears to be "other people, animals, and things" where does the otherness of the other show up in experience? Where is the EXACT point of separation between you and not-you? How is that separation experienced? How is it known? What's it made of? Take some time to closely observe this.

I guess my self would be made up of all the things that I alone experience. Also, there is just an undeniable feeling of 'I-ness' in my life. I feel like 'I' am here as a separate person.

Is that so?

Now is a wonderful time to find out if that is really true.

Next time you have some time to sit down undisturbed, close your eyes, allow the breath to settle and invite this feeling of I-ness. Allow it to be completely present and feel it in its entirety. Really spend some time becoming intimate with this sensation. Can you describe it in as much detail as possible? Where is it experienced exactly? What about that particular sensation makes it you?

There is the physical side also. I control my body, or rather, my brain sends the signals needed to control my body.

We'll get to this at a later point, as this is a different and quite deep topic as well.

Take your time, there's quite a bit to ponder here.

Wishing you a lovely weekend!

Hi Damon,

Thank you, I hope your weekend is going well so far too.

Now look again. Can you find an actual owner of thoughts, feelings, memories? Can you find an owner of the personality you describe?

I've been looking for one, but I can't seem to pinpoint anything. There are just these things, and no owner of them. That being said, this seems like a fairly mind-oriented knowing, not the knowing knowing that I'm after.

When you observe what appears to be "other people, animals, and things" where does the otherness of the other show up in experience? Where is the EXACT point of separation between you and not-you? How is that separation experienced? How is it known? What's it made of? Take some time to closely observe this.

Okay, I've been looking hard for this point of separation today. Sometimes I would be doing things like talking to people, and looking at them, and feeling like there wasn't any separation. Its hard to describe, but its like although they were in my field of vision, they were 'immediate', almost a part of me. At other times, when I was listening, I felt like the centre of 'me' sort of fell out, and there was just the person talking, and listening happening, but with no listener.

Physical things seemed to pose more of a problem. I feel as though the point of separation is clear, as it occurs when the body touches the other physical object.

Next time you have some time to sit down undisturbed, close your eyes, allow the breath to settle and invite this feeling of I-ness. Allow it to be completely present and feel it in its entirety. Really spend some time becoming intimate with this sensation. Can you describe it in as much detail as possible? Where is it experienced exactly? What about that particular sensation makes it you?

Okay, I will definitely do this. I got a little time today and the sensation of me seems to be located around the heart, or centre of the chest. When I looked at it a bit there was a feeling of anxiety and fear.

I'm sorry for the short reply Damon, just more of a quick update to let you know how I'm going, and that you've given me a lot to investigate, so I'll get back to you soon with a much more detailed report. I'm experiencing a lot of confusion at the moment, especially when trying to find how I'm separate to other things and where that point is. Its definitely good confusion, and I'm looking hard for answers!

Jett :)

Thank you, I hope your weekend is going well so far too.

Yeah, so far so good. It's a beautiful autumn day today. Thanks :-)

I'm sorry for the short reply Damon, just more of a quick update to let you know how I'm going, and that you've given me a lot to investigate, so I'll get back to you soon with a much more detailed report.

Sure, take your time!

I'm experiencing a lot of confusion at the moment, especially when trying to find how I'm separate to other things and where that point is. Its definitely good confusion, and I'm looking hard for answers!

Keep looking! And when you see what appears to be an answer, look again- deeper. We're not looking for answers, but for the dissolution of the question.

I've been looking for one, but I can't seem to pinpoint anything. There are just these things, and no owner of them. That being said, this seems like a fairly mind-oriented knowing, not the knowing knowing that I'm after.

Again, a wonderful observation. It's possible to reason your way through this, but that's not the point here at all.

Okay, I've been looking hard for this point of separation today. Sometimes I would be doing things like talking to people, and looking at them, and feeling like there wasn't any separation. Its hard to describe, but its like although they were in my field of vision, they were 'immediate', almost a part of me.

And what is this me that other people appear to be part of? Can you be more precise? Where do other people appear exactly? As what? In what way?

At other times, when I was listening, I felt like the centre of 'me' sort of fell out, and there was just the person talking, and listening happening, but with no listener.

What's the exact difference between the two types of listening? When there appears to be a listener, how is that experience different from listening happening with no listener?

Physical things seemed to pose more of a problem. I feel as though the point of separation is clear, as it occurs when the body touches the other physical object.

Let's examine this in more detail, ok?

Let's use a piece of fruit (if you have some) as an example. Let's say it's an apple.

Put the apple on the table in front of you.

Close your eyes, take a couple of deep breaths and use your hand to pick up the apple from the table. Hold the apple.

Just focus on the experience of holding and touching the apple. No need to imagine or theorize here. Just observe the sensations.

Do you experience a toucher, separate from the touching? Observe the experience in detail.

Next, look at the object (apple) you appear to be experiencing. Do you experience an actual apple, separate from the sensations?

You can try the same experiment with the other senses, like smell, sight and even taste. Let me know if you want me to elaborate on those as well.

The idea behind these types of exercises is to check out, for yourself, in actual experience, whether or not the idea we have that there is a me in here and a world out there is actually true.

I got a little time today and the sensation of me seems to be located around the heart, or centre of the chest. When I looked at it a bit there was a feeling of anxiety and fear.

Spend some more time exploring this. Where exactly is this sensation of anxiety and fear located? What are its boundaries, it's texture. Can you allow it to be completely present, give it more space as it were?

What's the fear trying to tell you? What's being protected by this fear? What's behind this?

Enjoy the ride, Jett.

Hi Damon,

I'm back to answer your questions. Been looking hard and finding a lot, as well as a lot of confusion! But it's all goof either way :)

And what is this me that other people appear to be part of? Can you be more precise? Where do other people appear exactly? As what? In what way?

Okay, so other people seem to be part of awareness. Ever since I did that apple experiment (thanks for that one by the way, its very powerful!) I am having more trouble seeing people as separate, solid, identities, and instead am seeing them more as a collection of sensations. Not that they're not real, but rather, they're not real in the way I was thinking they were. Just as I seem to be, and everything else seems to be, they aren't separate from how I'm experiencing them (listening, touch etc). There's no 'me's', no 'identities' that are standing apart from what I'm actually experiencing of them. Its hard to explain, but I hope you get what I'm getting at.

What's the exact difference between the two types of listening? When there appears to be a listener, how is that experience different from listening happening with no listener?

So when its a case of 'I' am the listener, its very much an effort. Like, I am constantly having to pay attention, form opinions based on what is being said, and because I'm operating from a place of being an identity, O'm very much relating to the other person in the same way, treating us both as identities.

When there is no listener, its effortless. The other person is talking, but it's not a person or identity per se. There is a body talking, sound is happening, listening is happening, and there is no effort to relate or understand, that just happens too and its quite a joy. Its also weird to be without a centre, or identity, as it were. Everything feels very intimate and immediate and quiet.

Okay, onto the apple (or in my situation, phone case experiment):

Thanks for this one by the way Damon, its very powerful and probably helped me realise in an experiential way, more than anything, how things don't exist separately from their sensations. I want to try this with other senses and things, and of course apply it a lot more to myself.

Do you experience a toucher, separate from the touching? Observe the experience in detail.

No, there is no separate toucher apart from the touching. How could there be? Touching happens, coolness of the apple is felt, as well as the hardness of the skin. But there is no need for, and no room for a separate self controlling or experiencing the touching. Touching is experienced effortlessly without help.

Next, look at the object (apple) you appear to be experiencing. Do you experience an actual apple, separate from the sensations?

Again, there is no actual apple. It took me a while to get this, but contrary to what we get told our whole lives, all the parts of an apple don't equal an imaginary identity thing called 'apple', rather, they just equal sensations and experiences. We call it an apple, and eventually it seems like the name is a thing in itself, but its not! I'm going to apply this, as I said, to other things and myself. But I'm slowly grasping it.

Spend some more time exploring this. Where exactly is this sensation of anxiety and fear located? What are its boundaries, it's texture. Can you allow it to be completely present, give it more space as it were?

What's the fear trying to tell you? What's being protected by this fear? What's behind this?

Okay, so my experience was a little different this time because of all the looking I've been doing. This time I was trying to find myself, but there wasn't a me in all my emotions, feelings, personality, or even body this time. Instead, I seemed to be awareness. But I feel like I'm not quite there in that I was very much identifying awareness with the mind. I know I'm not my thoughts, and I can feel awareness just being aware, but it seems to be clouded over by the mind.

Now it seems to be less fear, and rather more stickiness? Like, I feel like I could just be aware but mind is always crowding in.

I'll keep up the exercises and inquiry. I do feel like I'm getting somewhere. No massive 'aha' moments, but perhaps more gradual, gentle understanding?

I'll take whatever comes! :)

Thanks Damon :)