The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
To realize that there is no self with experience or direct looking and not only have a knowing or understanding. And somehow I got tired almost with everything and I just want to finish this seeking, wanting.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
To switch on the light in the room and not only think that is on or just asking when it will be on, how to turn on it.
Or just simply overcome this frustration feeling that I cannot see the truth however I know everything.
Or just find out what is this feeling to look for this "no self" thing why I chase this what I want to prove.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
From the near past reading Ramana Maharshi, visiting his ashram twice in the last three year. Participate on many retreats. Reading Paul Smit and Lisa Cairns, Gateless Gatecrashers and the "LooK!-An illustrated guide to seeing what IS" and many articles from the archive on this site.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 11

Hi Fuxi05,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon and I am willing to guide you.

And somehow I got tired almost with everything and I just want to finish this seeking, wanting.

Good. That is a very good thing. It will help a lot.

Or just simply overcome this frustration feeling that I cannot see the truth however I know everything.

Once again, this is good. Perhaps I may assist you to overcome this frustration?

What we do here you will know from reading Gateless Gatecrashers. We will simply have a conversation, a chat if you like. All our efforts will be focused on one thing, for you to make the realisation that there is no self. I will tend to ask questions. It will be up to you to reflect or examine your experience honestly and reply.

I will not be giving you new beliefs as much as challenging those you already have

Please have a think and let me know any expectations or hopes you have of this process? This is most important. Even seemingly insignificant or silly ones are worth mentioning.

Please agree to post at least once a day and I will attempt to do so too.

Please learn to use the 'Quote' function at the top of the editing screen, as I have done in quoting from your post.

Now, if you are ready, please tell me what is your current understanding of of what 'you' are?

Hi Jon,

Nice to meet you. My name is Balazs.

Please have a think and let me know any expectations or hopes you have of this process?

I will be a super hero. I will understand everything. I think those things aren't here anymore just good to mention.

Please agree to post at least once a day and I will attempt to do so too.

I will do.

Now, if you are ready, please tell me what is your current understanding of of what 'you' are?

Intellectually I know that the I is not exists, it is just a thought, a story. But honestly the realisation, the seeing is not here. Like when you enter in the room you know if the light is on or off but now I am thinking if it is on or off.
At this moment the I is just a feeling that I exists.

Thank you.
Balazs

Hi Balazs

. I will be a super hero. I will understand everything. I think those things aren't here anymore just good to mention.

Ha ha. Ok. I will take your word for it.

Intellectually I know that the I is not exists, it is just a thought, a story. But honestly the realisation, the seeing is not here. Like when you enter in the room you know if the light is on or off but now I am thinking if it is on or off.
At this moment the I is just a feeling that I exists

Ok. That is clear. Thank you

Tell me how this feeling that 'I' exists is experienced?

Look for the 'I'. Where does it appear?
Does it seem to exist in the body or perhaps in thoughts?

Warm regards

Jon.

Hi Jon,

Tell me how this feeling that 'I' exists is experienced?

This 'I' looks like an inner voice, an inner talk and says that I did, said everything. It gives the doership feeling.

Look for the 'I'. Where does it appear?

The 'I' appears in the head, in thoughts.

Does it seem to exist in the body or perhaps in thoughts?

It seems to exist in thoughts. The body is just a body, something just says it is my body.

Thank you.
Balazs

Adding one more element to this question:

Tell me how this feeling that 'I' exists is experienced?

It is like a radio. When the body wakes up this radio will turn on and says lot's of 'I' stuff, like do this, do that, you should or shouldn't, why this happened, what is the plan for future.
This radio will turn off when the body is going to sleep. I have less dream or I cannot remember in the morning. Therefore it is very interesting that what happens during the night, where is this all 'I' things, what is still aware that the body is laying, breathing, digessting, moving the legs and arms in the bed.

Thank you.
Balazs

Hi Balazs,

From your two replies it is very clear that the experience of 'I" appears as thoughts. Thank you. That is very helpful for our inquiry.

You also mention body...

It seems to exist in thoughts. The body is just a body, something just says it is my body.

Interesting. Perhaps thought says this?

Is there ever the feeling of being in a body or being in 'my bidy'? If there is, where in the body is this feeling of 'me'?

For some people self-identification is mostly with thoughts but it can also be with or in "my body' , sometimes a feeling of being just behind the eyes. Let me know if this sense of 'I' extends much to the body, is not.

Thank you.

Jon

Hi Jon,

Interesting. Perhaps thought says this?

Yes, it is true. Thoughts are just coming and saying 'my' body. The 'I' cannot find in the body if it would possible then the 'I' should control all body activity but this is not the case.
For example when I say: 'I' am breathing it is not true because you cannot control the breath, you exhale completely and decide not to inhale you cannot and after some time you should inhale but this happen automatically without any control.

This 'I' just wanted to claim the control which is an illusion and control everything and everybody.

If we go further then the body is just a thought as well, it is just a common agreement from the mankind that this thing which has two arms, legs, one head and so on is a body but in reality, this is not a body just a word what is used in the communication.

Thank you.
Balazs

Hi Balazs

If we go further then the body is just a thought as well, it is just a common agreement from the mankind that this thing which has two arms, legs, one head and so on is a body but in reality, this is not a body just a word what is used in the communication.

Yes. Despite understanding this in theory many people nevertheless still feel 'I am my body' or 'I am in my body'. This is not something to be overlooked. Please let me know if this sort of feeling is experienced at any stage during this inquiry?

So, let us turn attention to thought.

Is it possible to find an 'I' that 'thinks thoughts'?

Is there an entity, 'me' that can be observed creating thoughts? Look for one.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?


Jon.

Hi Jon,

Please let me know if this sort of feeling is experienced at any stage during this inquiry?

I will do. One comment here. If something unexpected traffic situation happens during driving a car, then the body act immediately without an 'I' who is analyzing the situation and make a decision what to do.
I had this experience sometimes while driving a car. The 'I' came in the picture when the situation was over and said wow how you acted correctly to avoid the accidence, you were good and also the other people in the car said how I was in the present moment and act so fast.
But basically, in that unexpected situation, there was no 'I' just a happening.

Is it possible to find an 'I' that 'thinks thoughts'?

No, 'I' just another thought which wanted to be in the center and claims that other thoughts coming from this 'I'. It is like a mind mapping when you write the main topic in the middle of the empty white paper and other topics are connecting to this.
And in this case, the 'I' thought want the main topic.

Is there an entity, 'me' that can be observed creating thoughts? Look for one.

The 'me' entity cannot be found, it is just an imaginary person who supposed to be the source of the thoughts.
But when I try to look where it is, I found nothing just an 'I' thought.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, if I want then more thoughts coming if I don't want to control them maybe they will stop or not.
The thought appearing is out of the control like the clouds on the sky, sometimes there is no cloud sometimes less or more.
I want to avoid to use words which sound spiritually but I like the nature and sometimes one example from nature can help me to express myself in a better way.

Thank you.
Balazs

Hi Balazs,

The 'me' entity cannot be found, it is just an imaginary person who supposed to be the source of the thoughts.
But when I try to look where it is, I found nothing just an 'I' thought.

Since no 'I' is found, what notices that there is no self?

Since thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing could the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing?

Regards,

Jon

hi Jon,

Since no 'I' is found, what notices that there is no self?

Hm, this is a good question. Honestly I don't know , I have no words for it. If I would say: God, Life, That, Awareness then those world just came from books.
Maybe there's nothing to notice it.

Since thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing could the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing?

No, the `I` thought is also just coming and going and maybe coming and staying for longer time then other thoughts.

Thank you.
Balazs

Hi Balazs,

. Hm, this is a good question. Honestly I don't know , I have no words for it. If I would say: God, Life, That, Awareness then those world just came from books.
Maybe there's nothing to notice it.

Great answer. Yes, those labels would just come from books. Would you say though that it is somehow noticed or :seen'?

No, the `I` thought is also just coming and going and maybe coming and staying for longer time then other thoughts.

Perhaps many thoughts refer back to 'I' and therefore the assumption that a separate self exists is maintained?

Try the following exercise:

right here and now. The words on this screen are being read. What are they being read by?

Conventionally it is said that 'I see' or, possibly, 'eyes see'. And it is assumed that eyes, that are 'the body' are doing the seeing. Can you find a 'self' that is 'me' that is doing the seeing? Or is there simply the experience of seeing happening?


Thank you

Jon

Hi Jon,

Would you say though that it is somehow noticed or :seen'?

If it was noticed then it was for short period of the time, when unexpected things happened so fast where there was no time to think and the body reacted somehow from that moment and after the realization happened that there was no 'I' involved in that body activity.
There were two times while practicing some body movement where the body moved freely without any 'I' control
Beside those things nothing special things happened. :)

Perhaps many thoughts refer back to 'I' and therefore the assumption that a separate self exists is maintained?

Actually yes. As I woke up the 'I' radio just start the broadcast and continue until going to sleep like:
-I slept well.
-It is raining, I hate rain.
-The traffic is terrible, I don't like this and that.
-There is lunch time, I like soup.
-I want to take a rest after the lunch.
-I want to go home at 5 o'clock
-I like to go to the gym.
-I want to be more spiritual experience.
-I am tired and I am going to sleep.
Therefore I like the passive structure in the grammar. But as we use always the 'I' during the day we feed the 'I' thought continually.

What are they being read by?

There is no answer to this question at this moment just silence and listening, watching what comes up.

Can you find a 'self' that is 'me' that is doing the seeing?

No, I cannot find a 'self', 'me' who is doing the seeing.
I cannot see, hear, taste, touch any 'me'.
There is only feeling about the 'me' that it should exist somewhere in some form who is the doer.

Or is there simply the experience of seeing happening?

Yes, it basically just an experience like typing the words now.

Thank you.
Balazs

Hi Balazs,

Actually yes. As I woke up the 'I' radio just start the broadcast and continue until going to sleep like:
-I slept well.
-It is raining, I hate rain.
-The traffic is terrible, I don't like this and that.
-There is lunch time, I like soup.
-I want to take a rest after the lunch.
-I want to go home at 5 o'clock
-I like to go to the gym.
-I want to be more spiritual experience.
-I am tired and I am going to sleep.
Therefore I like the passive structure in the grammar. But as we use always the 'I' during the day we feed the 'I' thought continually.

Well said! You point to language. Do you find that the assumption of the existence of a separate 'self' is more or less built into language? So that an idea of 'I' is enshrined within everyday speech?

. What are they being read by?

There is no answer to this question at this moment just silence and listening, watching what comes up.

Good. Nice answer.

No, I cannot find a 'self', 'me' who is doing the seeing.
I cannot see, hear, taste, touch any 'me'.
There is only feeling about the 'me' that it should exist somewhere in some form who is the doer.

Good. So, there is sensing, seeing, hearing and so on. These can be experienced in the moment, right here and now, can't they? If you touch your face there is an immediate sensation. But what about the feeling or thought of 'self'?

Does the feeling or thought of 'self' make a real separate self come into being? Or is this like Santa Claus?..seeming to be a real guy who comes down the. chimney with presents until one day it is realised that Santa only ever was an idea?

Thanks,

Jon