The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I have been meditating and engaging in self-inquiry, mostly on my own, for some years. Although it has brought some benefits and some insights, it has yet to generate a true conviction in me. There is quite a bit of confusion as to how I can proceed from here. To do it alone seems difficult at this time, and I would appreciate guidance and a focused direction. This is the reason I came to this site since such a directed guidance seems to be kindly given.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I am looking for a guidance in seeing the illusory nature of self deeply and throughly than would otherwise be possible doing it alone. I believe that I have many blindspots and much spiritual baggages that I am carrying around that can be an obstruction, and I would appreciate if they can be pointed out so that I can make some progress.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have been meditating mostly on my own for about 6 years. I have attended a few meditation sessions (Vipassana meditation) given by Theravada monks. I have also worked on things such as, lucid dreaming, body-scanning, breath-meditation, and self-inquiry. My main practice currently is to do a sitting meditation on breath or body scanning for 20-40 mins in the morning and in the evening. In the morning I also do lying down meditation after sitting meditation. During the day, I try to do self-inquiry whenever a sense of self arises or other dualistic mind-states come up.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 9

Hi Yuksaka, I can guide if that is OK with you.

Hi QuantSelfLafont:

Thank you for your reply. Yes, please do guide me.

Best,
Yuki

Ok Yuki, here we go. Try and post once a day. I will respond once a day as well. I am in the Mountain time zone USA (GMT - 7). I'll ask you questions and the purpose of these questions will be for you to have your own insights.

You wrote:

it has yet to generate a true conviction in me

Question: If you had true conviction in you what would be different than what is currently being experienced?

thanks

Hi, yes, I will try to respond once a day. I am in Japan time zone (GMT+9) by the way.

As for your question:

Question: If you had true conviction in you what would be different than what is currently being experienced?

Well, I think my experience would be very different. As opposed to having all kinds of doubts about whether or not I am on the right track, I would have a clear idea how I can answer questions about reality from my direct experience. If I have a clear knowledge about reality, then my doubts will fall away and I will be at peace.

Best,
Yuki

I am in Japan time zone (GMT+9)

We are 16 hours different. We will find a rhythm.

having all kinds of doubts about whether or not I am on the right track, I would have a clear idea how I can answer questions about reality from my direct experience. If I have a clear knowledge about reality, then my doubts will fall away

Doubts obscure clear understanding of reality, clear understanding of reality would allow doubts to fall away. Chicken and egg problem for us. Let's tackle the understanding.

You wrote:

I am looking for a guidance in seeing the illusory nature of self

Question: What is your understanding today of the illusory nature of self?

Question: What is your understanding today of the illusory nature of self?

My understanding is that self is illusory in that it is a thought construct, a ghost, a fictional character in a dream created by my mind (and made more seemingly real because of our collective participation in this dream). It is also enforced by senses: contractions, tensions, emotions within the body that go along with the thought.

However, I feel that it is still an intellectual understanding because my search is still going and complete clarity is not there. Also, I find it hard to see how one could participate fully in this simulation and simulataneously know that it is illusory.

Thanks.

self is illusory in that it is a thought construct

Right. As you say, intellectually you got it. Set aside a short bit of time so you can focus and do the following exercise.

Exercise:

Take a piece of fruit or vegetable, the most favorite you have available in your pantry.

Sit at the table and put your favorite fruit/veg in front of you. Close your eyes

Step 1: Picture your food item in your mind - fully - how it tastes, smells, looks and feels to the touch. Really explore your imagination about that food item.

Step 2: Open your eyes and look at the food item. Pick it up and feel it. Smell it. Taste it.

Question: What is the difference between the imagination of the object and the experience of the object?

Step 3: Sit now with your eyes closed, and imagine you. Your reputation, your history, how you remember looking in the mirror, what your family and friends say about you.

Step 4: Open your eyes and look. Where is "you"?

Question: What are the differences?

Thanks

Step 1: Picture your food item in your mind - fully - how it tastes, smells, looks and feels to the touch. Really explore your imagination about that food item.

Step 2: Open your eyes and look at the food item. Pick it up and feel it. Smell it. Taste it.

Question: What is the difference between the imagination of the object and the experience of the object?

Well, imagination of the object basically emulates the actual sensation of the object (imaginary touch, smell and taste), but the imagination sort of happens "in a different space" from the actual sensation of the object, so it is really independent from the actual sensation of the object. Also, I could change the sesnsation of the object in my imagination in ways that are not possible in the experience of the object.

On the other hand, I found it difficult to completely separate the imaginative activity from the experience of the object. For instance, as I bring a food into my mouth, I noticed a subtle imagination of my arm moving. Another example is that when I write a letter on a sheet of paper, I could not do it without simultaneously imagining the letter in my mind at first. So, in this case, the actual experience of writing can't be completely separated from the activity of imagination.

So, my experience is that imagination of the object can be an independent activity from the actual experience of the object, but sometimes the experience of the object involves imaginary activity as a part of the experience.

Step 3: Sit now with your eyes closed, and imagine you. Your reputation, your history, how you remember looking in the mirror, what your family and friends say about you.

Step 4: Open your eyes and look. Where is "you"?

Question: What are the differences?

Here, imagined "I" who has such and such a job, such history, such appearance and such family, is just a compound of images, feelings, thoughts and emotions. When I open my eyes, this "I" is not found anywhere in my experience. On the other hand, when I open my eyes, I cannot completely shake off of a feeling that "I" exist. There seems to be some subtle imaginary activity going on in the background even when I open my eyes that makes me feel like "I" exist.

I hope I'm investigating in the right direction.

Best.

my experience is that imagination of the object can be an independent activity from the actual experience of the object, but sometimes the experience of the object involves imaginary activity as a part of the experience.

Excellent.

change the sesnsation of the object in my imagination in ways that are not possible in the experience of the object.

Good noticing.

magined "I" who has such and such a job, such history, such appearance and such family, is just a compound of images

Good.

When I open my eyes, this "I" is not found anywhere in my experience.

You got it.

Fundamentally pointed in the right direction as you describe above. The only problem is this:

I cannot completely shake off of a feeling that "I" exist.

Exercise: Describe the feeling that "I" exists. Not thoughts, what it feels like.

Thanks

Exercise: Describe the feeling that "I" exists. Not thoughts, what it feels like.

Well, I think that main thing is that there is a feeling that I am the consciousness that experiences the objects that are separate from the consciousness. This separation is felt physically as a tension in my head and gut area.

Also, I tend to have a lot of discursive thoughts. In such cases, there is the "feeling" that I am the thinker of these thoughts or again, a subject (a consciousness?) standing apart from, witnessing, or sometimes trying to control the stream of thoughts that arise.

Best

feeling that I am the consciousness .. separation is felt physically as a tension in my head and gut area.

OK. Add this:

"I" ..is just a compound of images
"I" is not found anywhere in .. experience.
sometimes the experience of the object involves imaginary activity as a part of the experience.

To the above statement and the result is there is no experienced "I" - and there is an experience of tension in head and gut.

Question: How does tension in head and gut relate to the imaginary activity of experiencing "I"?

feeling that I am the consciousness .. separation is felt physically as a tension in my head and gut area.


OK. Add this:

"I" ..is just a compound of images
"I" is not found anywhere in .. experience.
sometimes the experience of the object involves imaginary activity as a part of the experience.


To the above statement and the result is there is no experienced "I" - and there is an experience of tension in head and gut.

Hmm, so feeling of being a separate consciousness is nothing but an imaginary activity plus tension? ... Even then, it feels like such a tenacious activity, almost like a constant shadow running in the background.

Question: How does tension in head and gut relate to the imaginary activity of experiencing "I"?

They seem to reinforce each other. The more vigorous the imaginary activity of experiencing the "I", the stronger is the tension and vice versa. Also, as I wrote above, when I look into any sensory experience, it seems that there is always some measure of imaginary activity going on, however subtle it is, overlaying on top of the raw sense data "to make sense" of it. This activity seems automatic and not stoppable. For instance, when I think by an internal voice, there is a subtle image of a "speaker" that arises automatically in my mind (and also attendant tension in throat and head area that reinforces the presence of some "entity").

Thanks.

a constant shadow running in the background

The mechanism cannot be stopped, only recognized for what it is.

feeling of being a separate consciousness is nothing but an imaginary activity plus tension

I am pulling together statements you have shared.

Question: If there is more to separate consciousness than imagination plus tension, what is it?

The mechanism cannot be stopped, only recognized for what it is.

I see.

[Question: If there is more to separate consciousness than imagination plus tension, what is it?

It feels like activities such as decision, intention, inference, questioning, doubt, emotional reactions and desire belong to a separate entity/consciousness. Are they solely imagination plus tension? I am not entirely clear. It feels as though there's some entity hiding behind them.