The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
A desire to experientially know who or what I really am, without a doubt. Not conceptually, but experientially.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Assistance and guidance on what to do for knowing experientially who or what I am. I understand concepts will be used, but used for understanding, which will lead to experiential realization. Any general guidance on what I may be able to do as a next step(s).

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Meditating for 14 or so years. Last several years have a focus solely on how does this reality work, who or what am I. I can experientially see that this body and mind are just taking actions. That is, whenever I look, I can see things are just happening with the body and mind. I as a separate body-mind is not actually the doer of the body-mind actions. I understand conceptually that I as a separate entity does not truly exist, but experientially I just see activities happening with the body or mind whenever I look, as I am just the watcher of it all. Again, I understand even I as a separate watcher does not exist, but I'm explaining my experience. I don't notice the body actions always just happening 24/7, but whenever there is a reminder to do so, it's clear things are just happening.
I still take actions on a daily basis as if I was a someone, but I know whenever I look it's not clear who/what I am, and can't point at something and say this is what I am, because I do make a clear distinction between that which perceives and that which is perceived, and it's clear that that which perceives can never be perceived.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

Hello,

Perhaps I can be of help if you like.

To proceed, please confirm that you have read and agree to our terms.

Hi Kvotski,
Yes I have and yes I agree thank you.

Excellent. Shall I call you one or your real name. My name is Sunil and I am in Canada.

Now please tell me about your journey to the point where you see the body mind doing nothing.

Also, tell me what you expect the next to be?

When we go to the dinner table, we expect food. When we go to the bank we visualise getting money. You must have some idea of what this next may look like?

Excellent. Shall I call you one or your real name. My name is Sunil and I am in Canada.

Hi Sunil, you can call me One or Mike, either way is fine for me.

Now please tell me about your journey to the point where you see the body mind doing nothing.

If I just look at what the body-mind is doing, I can see it just taking actions. Like right now, the body is just typing. I as a separate body-mind am not controlling this typing, it is just happening. The dialog happening internally that is talking what I'm writing is just happening. The direction of attention to the noise of my air conditioner is just happening. I as a separate body-mind am not even controlling where attention goes. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by the "journey", as in, the journey of where I see the body-mind doing nothing (in any moment of the day if "I" "decide" to "look"), or if you mean the "journey" as in what has happened over the many years that may have contributed to this noticing of everything is just happening, and the body is just an instrument of perception through which the world is experienced, but I am just experiencing it all happening.

Also, tell me what you expect the next to be?

When we go to the dinner table, we expect food. When we go to the bank we visualise getting money. You must have some idea of what this next may look like?

I've had many experiences, and I used to chase states, and sometimes there is an expectation of the next step "should" be just awaring or experiencing... but then I say, OK, is that just a chasing of a state again. I know states come and go, and I am that which is aware of states. However, it has also happened where I am not even that which is aware anymore. To elaborate, I mean, there isn't an awaring I aware of experience, but instead there is just experiencing. In other words, I = experiencing.... Not something experiencing something else, not something aware of something else, but just experiencing or awaringness only. There isn't a recognition of an I until after the "experience". It seems clear in that experience that this is always happening this way, but "I" am not aware of that all the time.... So, I question sometimes, is the next step somehow where that "experience" is always in that way, just experiencing happening without anyone there to recognize it, or is that just chasing a state again. It seems a bit different in that yes it's a state, but it's a state that always seems it must be there, and it's not a state of someone or something, but just the experiencing state. The conclusion I always come to about all this is, I just have to let go, surrender, etc. and whatever is meant to be will be. I know that I as a separate body-mind can't do anything, even the letting go, but I'm not sure what else to do except let go.... and that letting go reminders that I make, even know as I write this, is just a programming of the body-mind and that somehow may trigger the actual letting go to happen, and there's really nothing more to do.... but.... I don't know if I'm missing something and there may be another suggestion I would consider, which is why I started this post to begin with. Thank you.

Hi Mike,

I'll call you mike as one can be misleading as we will see. One implies a presence of some one. And as you have read we are all about absence of I, me, self or one.

You said,

look at what the body-mind is doing, I can see it just taking actions. Like right now, the body is just typing. I as a separate body-mind am not controlling this typing, it is just happening. The dialog happening internally that is talking what I'm writing is just happening. The direction of attention to the noise of my air conditioner is just happening. I as a separate body-mind am not even controlling where attention goes. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by the "journey", as in, the journey of where I see the body-mind doing nothing (in any moment of the day if "I" "decide" to "look"), or if you mean the "journey" as in what has happened over the many years that may have contributed to this noticing of everything is just happening, and the body is just an instrument of perception through which the world is experienced, but I am just experiencing it all happening.

First I meant journey as the many years you have obviously spent inquiring about self.

Now, notice what you said above. The body is doing everything, yet your title says it is not. Do you mean the body mind does nothing or you do nothing, body mind does it all?


You also said,

The conclusion I always come to about all this is, I just have to let go, surrender, etc. and whatever is meant to be will be. I know that I as a separate body-mind can't do anything, even the letting go, but I'm not sure what else to do except let go.... and that letting go reminders that I make, even know as I write this, is just a programming of the body-mind and that somehow may trigger the actual letting go to happen, and there's really nothing more to do.... but.... I don't know if I'm missing something and there may be another suggestion I would consider, which is why I started this post to begin with. Thank you.

This implies there is an "I" which has to surrender, it is a separate body mind which can't do anything, it is not sure what to do and it is uncertain if it is missing something.

So let's first try to find the I that is or isn't doing all these things. Where is it?

Here is an exercise that may help. Close your eyes and point where you think this you resides. Do this several times and ask yourself honestly and harshly, can you find this entity in your direct experience?

Please tell me everything you find.

Hi Mike,

I'll call you mike as one can be misleading as we will see. One implies a presence of some one. And as you have read we are all about absence of I, me, self or one.

You said,

look at what the body-mind is doing, I can see it just taking actions. Like right now, the body is just typing. I as a separate body-mind am not controlling this typing, it is just happening. The dialog happening internally that is talking what I'm writing is just happening. The direction of attention to the noise of my air conditioner is just happening. I as a separate body-mind am not even controlling where attention goes. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by the "journey", as in, the journey of where I see the body-mind doing nothing (in any moment of the day if "I" "decide" to "look"), or if you mean the "journey" as in what has happened over the many years that may have contributed to this noticing of everything is just happening, and the body is just an instrument of perception through which the world is experienced, but I am just experiencing it all happening.

First I meant journey as the many years you have obviously spent inquiring about self.

Here's a brief history of the major points I'd say:

1. Worked with Teacher one on one and Retreats for 10 years (mostly about psychological belief system stuff... be happier with changing your beliefs)
2. Worked with Advaita Teacher online and in person retreats for 3+ years.
3. Meditation for about 14 years on and off
4. Many forms of body work, physical and subtle bodies (Massage, a lot of Reiki & Pranic Healing)
5. Kriya Yoga initiations via Yogananda and Hariharananda Lineage, practiced for 2 years
6. Kundalini Yoga on and off for several years
7. I'm not the biggest reader, I'm more into practicing. However, I have spent quite a bit of time on Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, Sri Atmananda Krisha Menon.

Now, notice what you said above. The body is doing everything, yet your title says it is not. Do you mean the body mind does nothing or you do nothing, body mind does it all?

I mean to say the following:

1. The body mind is just happening. I, whatever that is, is just aware of it all.
2. To further clarify the title, by "When "I" look I see the body-mind does nothing." , I mean to say that The body-mind is not the doer, not CHOOSING to do something. It is just happening.
3. I, whatever that is, am not aware of actually choosing to do anything (whenever I look to see how choosing to take actions happens)

You also said,

The conclusion I always come to about all this is, I just have to let go, surrender, etc. and whatever is meant to be will be. I know that I as a separate body-mind can't do anything, even the letting go, but I'm not sure what else to do except let go.... and that letting go reminders that I make, even know as I write this, is just a programming of the body-mind and that somehow may trigger the actual letting go to happen, and there's really nothing more to do.... but.... I don't know if I'm missing something and there may be another suggestion I would consider, which is why I started this post to begin with. Thank you.

This implies there is an "I" which has to surrender, it is a separate body mind which can't do anything, it is not sure what to do and it is uncertain if it is missing something.

So let's first try to find the I that is or isn't doing all these things. Where is it?

Here is an exercise that may help. Close your eyes and point where you think this you resides. Do this several times and ask yourself honestly and harshly, can you find this entity in your direct experience?

Please tell me everything you find.

I think this is a good experiment. I have done this several times in the past, and just spent some time doing it again per your suggestion. I am not able to find an entity, an I, anywhere. Not now and not when I've done this before. I sit quietly with eyes closed and I can not point anywhere where I resides.

However... I can do a different type of experiment and get some interesting results regarding the I sense on a body sensation level. The experiment is moving different parts of my body to see if it seems "I am moving" or instead there's just movements happening within the field of awareness. Basically, whenever I move any part of the body from the neck down, it's clear the body is moving, but I am not moving. With the head, it's different... If I have my eyes closed and move the mouth, the body is moving, but I am not moving. When I move my eyes, eye brows, or wrinkle the forehead, the body is moving, but I am not moving. Now... when I turn my head to the right or left it's different, as that makes it seem I am moving.

Very clear, Mike.

You said, body mind is not the doer.

Is there a doer at all?

You also said, you can't find an " I".

If you can't find it, what makes you so sure, there is an "I"?



Remember we are only going by direct experience, no conceptualisation, imaginations or assumptions.

Another experiment, write for a few minutes all that's happening now.

Then rewrite the list without I, me or self.

Did you read the book by Ilona, gateless gate crashers?

Hey Mike,

All these experiments are aimed at you seeing there is no you.

You may already be there based on my observation.

So, what remains is your desire for experiential realization.

Now, please answer if there is no I, how would you experientially realise the self?

Obviously, you are thinking of something else.

What is it?

Very clear, Mike.

You said, body mind is not the doer.

Is there a doer at all?

I can only come to a logical conclusion the doer is I, where I is the totality of everything. In other words, life is doing, but that doesn't mean there is a purpose, intent, or deciding faculty for the doing. I suppose I say this because some people may define doing in various ways.

However, experientially, I can find no doer at all, as I just witness whatever is being done, or there is just witnessing.

You also said, you can't find an " I".

If you can't find it, what makes you so sure, there is an "I"?

I'm using the word "I" in various ways, not worrying about trying to play gymnastics with words. I thought it would be clear based on the explanations and context, but maybe it's not clear. In most cases, my use of the word I means this body-mind, the way most people in the world would relate to what I means. Even as I write I think this or I like that etc, I know as I write it, it is in "normal" every day use of the word "I" and implies it's the I as the body-mind, even though I know from experience that "I" am not this separate body-mind.

In other cases through this thread, I'm using I in a different way. Like if I say, I, whatever that is... or if I say something like, I want to know what I really am without a doubt., I am coming from the following point of view:

There is something rather than nothing, that is a fact of my experience. There is something happening (doings, actions, etc) and there is an awareness of all these happenings or phenomena. All of this I'm talking about (all, literally meaning all), is interacting together, so it must be part of a larger whole, including the awaring.... so that awaring is "I" from this point of view, but from this point of view there isn't a separate "I", it's all "I". So then it comes to one of my questions that this thread is all about (why I started it), which is, what's next? Or in other words, is there any guidance on what I may want to do, based on where I seem to be, without really knowing what I should do or want to achieve next, other than having a wonder if letting go is the only thing I can really do, and the desire to just be in experiencing, where a separate I is clearly not present, is a fruitless effort, because if "I" am desiring this experiencing phenomenon, then that "I" is actually what is in the way from whatever the experience of my true nature is.

Remember we are only going by direct experience, no conceptualisation, imaginations or assumptions.

Understood

Another experiment, write for a few minutes all that's happening now.

Then rewrite the list without I, me or self.

I can do the experiment if you think it would be useful after reading all my comments here, but I think I get the purpose of it, and you may be able to determine if that is correct or not based on my comments here, for example the verbal gymnastics I mentioned. I understand when I use the words I, me, self, my, mine, etc, that all these are truly incorrect in that such a thing doesn't exist (based on my previous experiences, but I still do identify with a separate body and/or mind still throughout the day, it seems to be varying degrees).

Did you read the book by Ilona, gateless gate crashers?

I have not.

Hey Mike,

All these experiments are aimed at you seeing there is no you.

You may already be there based on my observation.

Perhaps, but I don't feel I am "there" 24x7, but perhaps that's an incorrect assumption on my part, that this experience would be such that it "should" be happening in such a way that there is no you/I 24x7. That does seem to be a current desire and expectation on my part. That is, I have had experiences where there is clearly no I having any experience, there is just experiencing. During that, since there's no I, there isn't even a recognition during that experience that it's happening, it's just happening. Then, afterwards, "I" can see, oh there was no "I" there... I seemed to get there by just letting go, or perhaps a better way to say it is, not having any resistance.... so then I'm like, oh, I think to be "there" (in the way you are saying "you may already be there"), that I should have this "no I" experiencing always happening, and the only way that can happen (I assume, but it seems this way from my past experience) is to be in total non resistance, period. And... if I'm not in total non resistance, then I'm not "there". I may be confusing what non resistance truly is from an experiential point of view, because it seems I'm equating non resistance to being in the "experiencing only" experience where there is no separate I.

So, what remains is your desire for experiential realization.

Yes

Now, please answer if there is no I, how would you experientially realise the self?

I think my answer should be clear based on my previous responses I just wrote here in this same reply... especially the paragraph directly above. Basically, I understand (from experience), that it's not possible for I to recognize I, because that basically means separation recognizing non separation, and that's not possible, and not what I've experienced before when it seems the "non I" experience was happening...

Obviously, you are thinking of something else.

What is it?

There is a desire to get clarity on what may be useful for "me" to do next, based on where "I" am at.

In short, I always come to the following conclusion, and that is...

The only thing that can be done is to not resist.

There is nothing else to be done. In fact this isn't even accurate, because how can "not resist" happen? I mean, it can't be that "I" need to not resist, because it's clear whenever I look there is no "I" taking actions, it's all happening... so "I" cannot "not resist".... perhaps non resistance will happen and perhaps it won't...

So I'm at a loss on what should be my next "step" :) Since I don't exist, it seems I can't do a next step, so "what's next"?


:) There may be no answer, and I'm OK with that, but thought I'd ask. :)

Hi Mike,

As you know, the guiding here is to firmly establish there is no separate self. No, I, me or you. We also use these terms conventionally knowing well that we are pretending. So in that sense where can I guide you to?

I find many of us in the same camp as you. I can share with you if you wish. You could also join the closed lu groups after a confirmation process.

Clearly, there are two camps, one who feel the presence you feel, some still call it an I, others see this presence as emptiness of dzogczen. I see both as synonyms, word gymnastics as you call it.

So, what's next? That still implies there is a desire for the next and it must be burnt off by seeing what else is there. I find only energy practice as shaktipat gives me a glimpse of something beyond what I know. I have met some people who do say they are in the clarity 24/7 but their guiding is the same, keep inquiring within to find what changes glimpses to complete state. Some say you are already there just pretending not to know.

It's sometimes useful to keep hammering home that if there is no I, who is trying to do something else?

Here is something that just hit my email.

http://www.kiloby.com/writings.php?offs ... tingid=263

Hi Mike,

I find many of us in the same camp as you. I can share with you if you wish. You could also join the closed lu groups after a confirmation process.

I'm definitely open to this. I appreciate the consideration, time, and input!

So, what's next? That still implies there is a desire for the next and it must be burnt off by seeing what else is there. I find only energy practice as shaktipat gives me a glimpse of something beyond what I know.

How do you mean by shaktipat in this context? Are you saying the sharing of "energy" from a "Teacher"?

...keep inquiring within to find what changes glimpses to complete state.

Would you mind elaborating on "changes glimpses to complete state"? I don't think I'm understanding as well as I could.

It's sometimes useful to keep hammering home that if there is no I, who is trying to do something else?

Good point, thank you!

I looked over the link, but it didn't really resonate with me. I really appreciate it though!

Hi Mike,

I will come back with questions tomorrow.

Shaktipat is an ancient energy practice which has morphed into many practices like Qi gong, kundalini and yes it is a transmission from a teacher also common in Zen Buddhism. That is beyond our role here.

Some teachers I have met who suggest they are in a free or enlightened state do not guide to anything much different. Continue self inquiry such as who am I, meditation, direct path and find that they get glimpses of freedom which eventually culminate into a permanent freedom. I am not such a master but I am open to them being true. I find a bit of contradiction in that if there is no self who is there to be free or in an open state.

Having seen there is no self doesn't imply that old conditioning will not resurface. But just a quick look does bring one back home. There has to be a definite direct experience of the absence of self not just a conceptual understanding. What's the difference? It's a lack of doubts. I is just an idea like Santa Claus.

Gateless gate crashers can be downloaded for free from lu home page and will give you a checklist as to whether you are on the same page as us.