The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
A very strong urge to experience the "no self"

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I am expecting guidance, to be pointed at the blank spots where the feeling of "I" might still be hiding, because conceptually I know it is not real, but i don;t have the direct experience anymore.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I have been familiar with the topic of self realization for quite a while now (around 2 years) but the active search(inquiry and meditation every day) began 2 months ago. One month ago, after hearing the question: If there is no I, then who is looking for what? -I had a sudden, unexpected realization. For the following week, everything seemed to flow naturally, effortlessly, with a deep sense of compassion for the others, and thoughts arising only when necessary or not at all. But then, it slowly faded away.
So i guess I want it back, i don't know...

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

Hi Arunachala
Im Sarah and Id be happy to speak with you. Are you ok with me calling you Arunachala or something else?

Have you worked with use before? Have you looked around our site? You know what we do here?

but i don;t have the direct experience anymore.

What are you experiencing if not direct experience?
Looking forward to talking with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the reply. I would also love to be guided by you. Also, you can call me Dani.
No, I haven't worked with you before. As I wrote on the description, I found out about this forum by randomly google-ing: "where is the I" out of frustration, and so here I am. Yes, I had a look on a few threads, and also starting reading the book, Gateless Gatecrashers.

The thing is, in that period, I could focus to have no thoughts for a while, but now they are all back. So I am not sure if that was a very strong belief that felt real, or something else. Probably I am expecting the description of Ramana Maharshi to happen, with destruction of the mind and thoughts.
Also, I think is important to mention here that I had a desire to convince my friends for them to also look into this (I guess mixed with arrogance at the same time).

What do you think, or better said, what do you see?

Thanks,
Dani

Hey Dani

House keeping first:

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send? Ok.

Lets get going then! Im not ignoring what you have wrote - but I do need to figure out where you are first. OK

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send? Ok

.

Got it!

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

When I close my eyes and ask "where am I now?' the answer that comes up is "here" and the physical location is somehow in between the eyes.

For instance does it feel like its in the center or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

All I can tell is somehow inside the body, no colour, nor shape nor texture, no size, and then thoughts appear. Then I ask: to whom do this thoughts appear? and the answer is pointing to the same "me" between the eyes.

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

It's made of this sense of presence, this "me", and a bundle of thoughts attached to it. It still feels to a certain extent that it does control, decide, and act. There are very brief moments when this happens, like flashes, but I'm not sure...

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

answered above.

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

No, nothing can exist outside the present moment. Only thoughts about the past, which can still only be observed in the present moment.

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?

Yes, it seems this sense of "me" is here since forever.

Thanks again for doing this Sarah! I really appreciate it!
I have lost interest in most of the stuff going on in the world, so that is why I have time to fully look in this and answer quite fast.
There's nothing that I want more (and probably that's also part of the problem).

Kind regards,
Dani

Hi Dani
Sorry I'm late replying. Had trouble accessing my posts. Can I get back to you tomorrow? Hugs Sarah xxx

Hey Dani

It's made of this sense of presence, this "me", and a bundle of thoughts attached to it.

Do you intentionally bring any of these thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and how?
Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Is there is a thought that you can control?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Do you intentionally bring any of these thoughts? Or do they come and go on their own? If you do bring them from where and how?

No, I don't. They seem to come and go on their own. The only thing that seems unclear is that if I want to think of an orange, an image of an orange appears. But then I realize "me" is also a thought, and a thought can't think another thought. So my the only conclusion I have is that the "me" thought almost instantly identifies with the orange thought, and it appears as if I thought of thinking an orange.

Can you send them away, stop them or get rid? Can you suppress your next thought before it arises? Does it work?

No to all the questions here.

Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?

It doesn't work, except for the example with the orange above, when it seems like a prediction, but it;s actually not.

Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Is there is a thought that you can control?

No and no.

What can a thought do – what power does it have?

A thought can only trigger my inner speech, or paint a picture of an object (the orange for example).

You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?

No, while inspecting the orange thought, I can't experience it with any of my senses. So therefore the thought of an orange is not real, it does not exist in direct experience. Therefore, I am asking myself, since "me" is also a thought, then the only real thing that I experience is the body, which is not me. So I find a contradiction, and I am confused.

Regards,
Daniel

Hey Dani

a thought can't think another thought.

Are you clear on this?

and it appears as if I thought of thinking an orange.

Unfortunately most oranges look pretty similar! LOL. So think of a car. Are you in control of what car comes to the surface?

A thought can only trigger my inner speech, or paint a picture of an object (the orange for example).

Do you experience thought doing this? Or does it just appear as if? Check please.

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? Can you see where and when it labels - before, during or after?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hey Sarah,

a thought can't think another thought.

Are you clear on this?

Yes, and then the only explanation I have is that the "me" thought gets instantly attached to another thought...

Unfortunately most oranges look pretty similar! LOL. So think of a car. Are you in control of what car comes to the surface?

good one! I thought of a car, but couldn't control which car came in my mind. Same applied when thinking of a city, a country, a color, a song etc. However, there is still a belief that because you said I should think of a car, I could choose to think of a car, even if what car comes was not under my control.

A thought can only trigger my inner speech, or paint a picture of an object (the orange for example).

Do you experience thought doing this? Or does it just appear as if? Check please.

Honestly, after looking several times, I can't distinguish. A though often seems like a memory that pops in the form of an image for example. But I can;t see it in direct experience, so then it's not real. But somewhere, it still appears, like in a dream. And a voiceless voice seems to comment on it. And a me seems to be paying attention to all this.

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

A bit yes. Not heavier, rather it feels more personal, more familiar.

Now I want you to look during your day at how labeling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? Can you see where and when it labels - before, during or after?

So I checked yesterday and even today. It was a bit weird I have to say, because it felt in some moments that the body was doing the talking and "I" was paying attention.
What I found is that this "I" is mainly applied to describing body needs: " I am hungry, I need to pee, I don't like this, I think we should go" and it felt more like a natural way of speaking, not like an ownership (probably ownership only of the body).
Usually the labeling happened naturally, and only after I was realizing it, so It seemed that it happened after. Not sure if I did this correctly; I even took notes of the "I" phrases I said, so I don't forget them, and check for a pattern afterwards.

Thanks again,
Dani

Hey Dani

there is still a belief that because you said I should think of a car,

So if I say think of a pink elephant - can you choose NOT to think of one?
Is there such a thing as partial control?
What is belief? Is it a thought?

Honestly, after looking several times, I can't distinguish

Excellent answer!

What I found is that this "I" is mainly applied to describing body needs: " I am hungry, I need to pee, I don't like this, I think we should go" and it felt more like a natural way of speaking, not like an ownership (probably ownership only of the body). Usually the labeling happened naturally, and only after I was realizing it, so It seemed that it happened after. Not sure if I did this correctly; I even took notes of the "I" phrases I said, so I don't forget them, and check for a pattern afterwards.

Excellent Dani! So is thinking like autopilot then? Just happens?
Are you the watcher of this?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

So if I say think of a pink elephant - can you choose NOT to think of one?

Good point. No, I can't help it but think of an elephant.

Is there such a thing as partial control?

No, whether I have control or don.t. And now it seems I don't.

What is belief? Is it a thought?

LOOOOL :))) So I laughed at this one, because before investigation, it felt like belief was something very strong, a part of me.
But now :))) i realized it's just another thought to which I gave more attention and credibility. Damn!

Excellent Dani! So is thinking like autopilot then? Just happens?
Are you the watcher of this?

Yes, while observing it from different angles, thinking seems like on autopilot, it just happens.
Yes, I am the watcher of my thoughts, but strange enough, when I watch, for an instant they disappear, and for that particular instant, I connect with direct experience. But than, after another instant, it just slips back into the old pattern.

How can this "instant" be prolonged then?

Cheers,
Dani

Hey Dani

No, whether I have control or don.t. And now it seems I don't.

Does that mean you are sure? Or....?

So I laughed at this one, because before investigation, it felt like belief was something very strong, a part of me. But now :))) i realized it's just another thought to which I gave more attention and credibility.

Lovely. Well noticed. How many can you spot? No need to do anything about them - just notice and laugh!

Yes, I am the watcher of my thoughts,

What notices the watcher?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Does that mean you are sure? Or....?

The more I take any situation in my life and track it down to it's root cause, the more I conclude that the root cause was "it just happened". However, i feel like I am hesitant (or afraid) to fully admit this to myself.
The reason is because I realized I am expecting something to happen. And so I sat to write down all my expectations towards this:
I am expecting a revelation, an aha moment.
I am expecting a key word or phrase or question that would eventually trigger my awakening like a chain reaction, destroying all the beliefs and eventually the belief in the existence of an I. Somehow, every time when I get a new notification that you answered, in the back of my head I can hear a "this is it"
I am expecting to get rid forever of the feeling of superiority, pride and arrogance caused by this path.
I am expecting to teach others how to do this.
I am expecting to be the hero that took the leap of faith and now can guide the others as well.
I am expecting to be praised and well regarded by my girlfriend and close friends.
I am expecting to live in a state of complete relaxation, love and ecstasy for the rest of my life.
I am expecting to completely and forever shut-down my thoughts, and the voice in my head.
I am expecting to be some kind of savior for humanity, some kind of a great teacher who uses simple words, clear pointers to "awaken" the others.

I considered important for the process to be fully transparent and open to this, and hence the above.

Lovely. Well noticed. How many can you spot? No need to do anything about them - just notice and laugh!

will let you know if more pop up.

What notices the watcher?

The first reaction after reading this question was a burst in laughter. I can't answer for now. I will keep on investigating...Will let you know as soon as I find something to be mentioned.

Thank you Sarah for all this,
Dani