Pointing Towards Liberation

[freebirdy]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I have been "into" non-duality for about three months now. I have realized over the last few days that their is nothing that I can do to attain so called liberation. This realization is based on what I have heard from the and due to the fact that their is nobody that can do anything. I will admit that its hard for me to believe this I'm still trying to get rid of the self. Does not add up all logically at all. I should add that I had heard that nothing can be done near the start of my non dual interest but it is only know that I'm believing it.

I stumbled upon your website after typing "how to get rid of yourself". Certainly seems as if it could be of some help and offer some direction.

I described my current state to be sort of "meing and being". I can see the absolute but its mixed in with the self. Its sort of a highly aware state.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?: F

rom looking into other people it seems that alot of the time it was something they heard that caused them to really see through the illusion of self. I hoping the same to happen too me. So a certain question or answer might be enough to just cause such to happen.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

I have being seeking and inquiry for about 6 months with about three been with non-duality. Even through it has been relatively short, I think I have learned most of what can be learned.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[lorepep]

Hi freebirdy.

Welcome to the forum.
My name is Lorenzo and I will be happy to be your guide.
I'll do my best to write everyday and I ask you to do your best to do the same :)

Please answer as honestly as possible. We are here to see how things are, not to believe or prove something logically.

If you are down to it we can start the journey

Thank you

Lorenzo

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo,

I very happy to see your post. I also would like to thank you for taking time to guide me.
I understand when you say to me to be as honest as possible. You can call me Michael.
So ready to begin.

Thank you
Michael.

[lorepep]

Awesome Michael.

So what we will do is the same thing we do when we want to look for something.

Let's say you want to see if there is some milk left in the fridge, you go open the fridge you check with your senses
if the milk is actually there. If you cannot find it it's not there.
It can happen that thoughts like "but I am sure I bought it yesterday" or "I was sure to have some left" pop up, but they do not change the fact that there is no milk.

So you said you typed "how to get rid of yourself"...

What is this "self" you what to get rid of?
Can you put a finger on it?

Thank you

L

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo
The self for me feels like a contraction of sorts. If I where to look at all that appears to be going on in my awareness; the self appears as this entity that is thinking all sorts and added to it, a feeling of uneasiness or fear that causes a tightness in my heart area.

From this we can say that myself is my thoughts and feelings. There seems to be this sense that makes my thought and feeling very personal. It hard to see what this personal sense is. Maybe its a personal component added to thought; which of course is just thought as well. Its seems so subtle and automatic.

Its very hard to understand it. Every time I attempt to describe myself it is never the same but the undercurrent and sense of it is. This is a clear indication that it is just thoughts and beliefs which although a helpful understanding, doesn't do much in stopping me believing in myself.

Regards
Michael

[lorepep]

he self appears as this entity that is thinking all sorts

Which entity? Is an entity appearing? Can you shake hand with this entity?

Maybe its a personal component added to thought; which of course is just thought as well. Its seems so subtle and automatic.

It is automatic indeed :)

doesn't do much in stopping me believing in myself.

From this phrase you seem to hint that there is a 'self' and a 'self' that believes in the first self.

What is the 'self' that is believing?

Thanks
L

[freebirdy]

Which entity?

Well I suppose the entity that I presume to be myself; the sense of self. Consists of a sort of an encapsulations of thoughts and feeling and has a personal quality.

Is an entity appearing?

Well is seems to arises in the field of all that appears. I can see its really no different than seeing, hearing and anything else that might happen. It still has a certain aspect that makes it personal. Of course there is no entity its just a concept I developed to explain to you in words how I think about the self.

Can you shake hand with this entity?

No I cant shake hands with it. Its just thoughts and associated feeling. The problem is I believe them. There are just believed to be me automatically.

[freebirdy]

From this phrase you seem to hint that there is a 'self' and a 'self' that believes in the first self.

What is the 'self' that is believing?

The self is just a thought that believes aspects of my experience to be me. These aspects are thoughts and feelings.

[lorepep]

Hi Michael,

I apologize for the late response.

Of course there is no entity its just a concept

It is indeed, a concept, a label. Can you find what this label is attached to?
I mean, the label 'apple' as a corresponding object, an apple exists despite its label. What about the label 'self'?

The self is just a thought that believes aspects of my experience to be me.

Can a thought believe? Can a thought do something?

[freebirdy]

Hey Mate,

It is indeed, a concept, a label. Can you find what this label is attached to?
I mean, the label 'apple' as a corresponding object, an apple exists despite its label. What about the label 'self'?

So your basically asking me do I find a self when I look at that which seems to be a thought and sort personal sensation attached? When I look I find just a thought and a sensation. When I look like this they seem to loose their personal quality and are seen as really no different than anything else that goes on eg hearing seeing....
I must add that alot of the time I just seem to be automatically identify with thoughts and sensations. Realistically I can not spend all my time looking directly. But perhaps the time I do spend can have a subconscious effect on all identifying that goes on.

Can a thought believe?

mmm. Well I think a thought can contain beliefs but I don't think it can actually believe. There is probably a second thought that contains the idea of belief in what the first thought was. I dont see this as a problem. Its one thing to believe something but its quiet another to believe that it is something is you.

Can a thought do something?

A thought is merely a thought. I could think of going for walk. But the thought doesn't make it happen. To go for a walk one must move their body.

[lorepep]

but it is quite another to believe that this something is you.

What is saying that this something is you?
Don't answer from memories or assumption look with curiosity how things happen during everyday life.

I could think of going for walk

Can you? Can you choose your next thought? Can you stop a thought in the middle? Can you predict your next thought?
Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go?
Can you locate a thinker? Can it be found in experience?


Thanks
L

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo,

What is saying that this something is you?

Well sometimes thoughts contains images that directly relate to you. Other times the thoughts don't even relate to you but that doesn't stop you from feeling they are you. Im find it difficult to say exactly what it is that says its you. It feels very automatic. Perhaps you could rephrase or point towards something else. Im having trouble seeing why thoughts are believed to be me. True its only a thought arising but the thought takes on such a personal quality. Bizarre stuff.

Can you? Can you choose your next thought? Can you stop a thought in the middle? Can you predict your next thought?
Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go?
Can you locate a thinker? Can it be found in experience?

Thoughts for me just seem to appear. This is seen clearly through observation. You cannot choose your next thought. It appear you can but this is just a thought aswell. You can have the thought that you stopped a think in the middle. You cant predict your thoughts. It however feels like when not paying attention that I am the creator and director. Its as if they are mine. I identify with them.

Kind Regards
Michael.

[freebirdy]

Hey again,

Ha I have just noticed that I missed a few of your last questions.

Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go?
Can you locate a thinker? Can it be found in experience?

When looking directly thoughts seem to appear out of know where. Some of them do bare some relationship to what going on around you outside or inside your body.

Where do they go? They seem to just fall back into where ever they come from.
Can you locate a thinker? No cant locate one. The thinker just seems to be an added sense of feeling that goes with the thought.

Can it be found in experience?
When looking directly the thinker is not found. When looking directly thoughts take on a very impersonal quality and are seen to be no different than all else.
I just hope I am exactly taking this from direct experience and not just creating a concept about thought. What is your view on what direct experience is and how one knows that is where they are coming from??

[lorepep]

Hi Michael,

I just hope I am exactly taking this from direct experience and not just creating a concept about thought. What is your view on what direct experience is and how one knows that is where they are coming from??

Ok first of all, let's clear this off :)

There are raw experiences: hearing, seeing, touching, tasting, and smelling. There are sensations in the body, such as hunger, thirst and pain. This is what we consider here on LU to be direct experience. Basically there is no thinking about it, just watching the raw experience. This is the main difference between mental reasoning and seeing.

Now please, list a few items from your experience right now, and divide them in two categories 'story' and 'direct experience'. Just list a few of them.

Once you have done that and you have a firmer grasp on what direct experience is, check again if you can choose a thought or create a thought.
What about the 'It's me doing XXX' or 'I did XXX', thoughts? Can you see how they just pop up giving the illusion that there is a 'me' a 'self' a 'Michael' doing something?

Thanks

L

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo,

I hope your doing well.

Now please, list a few items from your experience right now, and divide them in two categories 'story' and 'direct experience'. Just list a few of them.

Yes I get the idea behind direct experience. I knew it all along; it was only doubt that was second guessing me. I know I am conceptualizing when I say this but; it has a lovely element of peace and an interpersonal quality about it.
Story
Thinking of stuff to write right now and thinking what is the best way of phrasing.
Thinking about how my day will unfold.
Thoughts of my current environment.
Thoughts about my body sensations and feelings.


Direct Experience
Hearing or noticing of cars outside
Seeing around my room and just seeing it for what it is. No judgement or division of objects.
Feeling body sensations such as the rise and fall of my chest and the sensation of my nostrils as air passes through down to the lungs.
Seeing thoughts propagating within experience.
Seeing 'self' thoughts as just thought and seeing the fact the you buy into them as just that.

check again if you can choose a thought or create a thought.

Thoughts in direct experience are seen to just land upon the field of experience. You cannot create although you can feel as if you can. This is merely a thought.

What about the 'It's me doing XXX' or 'I did XXX', thoughts? Can you see how they just pop up giving the illusion that there is a 'me' a 'self' a 'Michael' doing something?

Yes I can see this sometime or sometimes I don't. Still illusion both times. Im thinking that I will never understand why I feel them to be me. It doesn't even matter. It is just what happens. A thought arises with this sensation of self about it. That's it.

Regards
Michael.