The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed? *
I have been seeking the truth for many years now, I came across LU 2 or 3 years ago and read several threads and saw many were seeing the truth I f no self. I dont think I was ready at that time....anyway, I did a full circle and I find myself here again. I really am convinced that this is the best method to see if there is a self or not.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this? *
Well Im hoping that if successful life may carry on a little more simply. I see that the self centered nature of believing in a seperate 'I' complicates the matter of living.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry? *
I have had some nice experiences in the mystical Christianity path, that is where Ive done the most seeking. However, I was not ultimately satisfied, seeking still continued. I have also been involved in Scientology which yeilded no answers...Lately I'vebeen reading Ramana Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle, and Ram Daas. I believe that it is very likely there is no self but I dont think I've had the experience of it. I've done some of the looking along with others that have been guided here. (From reading along and doing some looking myself)

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). *
11

Hi Wesley,

Welcome to LU. Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

SOME GROUND RULES:-
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts).
Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is actual/direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
6. PLEASE LEARN to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below :
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you are happy to agree to the above and have me as your guide, we can start the process.

Could you please answer the following 5 questions, please answer them individually and highlight each question using the quote function.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Kay xxoo

How will life change?

Based on the conversations I've read most do not experience a big change, it seems that actually most people report that nothing has changed except a shift in perception. I'll admit that this was a little disappointing for me, but I realized that I have my concepts about what I thought this was about. Fortunately from reading many conversations I realize that this is simply a matter of seeing the truth about the self and I cant hold on to those concepts. I do believe that life would be a little more peaceful and joyful though. I did have an experience a few days ago while I was reading here about how the mind divides experience, there was an aha moment followed by a very pleasant experience of feeling more present that lasted for an hour or so...theres some hope that this would return (or something similar) upon seeing no self but I know I cant expect that, and doing so might be a barrier.

How will you change?

Is this a trick question? :) I'm hoping I quit taking things so seriously or at least to a lesser extent. That there would be more happiness overall. Maybe more smiling and laughing! I hope that the negative emotions and thoughts would not pull me in as easily. That I wouldn't identify with my thoughts as much. Then there's the thinking that if there is no me how could I change? So I am little confused about what that would look like.

What will be different?

I'm not exactly sure on what specifically but I think there would be more freedom. More freedom to just be, less striving. Seems that I strive all the time to have what I desire and at the same time avoid or resist what I don't want.

What is missing?

Acceptance of the way things are.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I'm hoping this will end my seeking.

Hi Wesley,

I am aware that you have read through various threads on the forum. I would ask that while we are doing this exploration that you stop reading the threads. Everyone is different, and how and when ‘seeing’ is experienced varies from person to person, but what can happen is that this can create expectations and expectations are a hindrance to ‘seeing’.

What we are looking at here is expectations and fears. The expectation of what ‘seeing’ looks like and the fear of ‘seeing’. When you read my responses, be aware of what emotions arise ie anger, disappointment, joy, resentment, resistance and so on and to let me know. Be aware of the sensations in the body.

How will life change?

I do believe that life would be a little more peaceful and joyful though. I did have an experience a few days ago while I was reading here about how the mind divides experience, there was an aha moment followed by a very pleasant experience of feeling more present that lasted for an hour or so...theres some hope that this would return (or something similar) upon seeing no self but I know I cant expect that, and doing so might be a barrier.

There is no separate individual/entity that can experience anything either pleasant or unpleasant or is hoping for experiences to return. These are all actual experience of thought but what the thoughts are about are story.

How will life change?

Is this a trick question? :) I'm hoping I quit taking things so seriously or at least to a lesser extent. That there would be more happiness overall. Maybe more smiling and laughing! I hope that the negative emotions and thoughts would not pull me in as easily. That I wouldn't identify with my thoughts as much. Then there's the thinking that if there is no me how could I change? So I am little confused about what that would look like.

In actual experience there are no negative emotions or positive emotions and no one/nothing that is experiencing these. There is no experience-er that is experiencing experience. Experience just IS. There is no one identifying with thoughts. Thought + colour/image + sensation which are the actual experience (AE) of what is labelled as a ‘person’ cannot identify with or identify something as anything. ‘You’ are not a person and never have been and you have never lived or are living a life.

What will be different?

I'm not exactly sure on what specifically but I think there would be more freedom. More freedom to just be, less striving. Seems that I strive all the time to have what I desire and at the same time avoid or resist what I don't want.

Freedom already IS. There is no separate individual who is striving or has desire or who can avoid or resist anything. And there is no ‘thinker’.

What is missing?

Acceptance of the way things are.

The label ‘acceptance’ points to a something/someone that is having an experience. There is no such something/someone. ‘Acceptance’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the actual experience of someone/something that is accepting of anything.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

I'm hoping this will end my seeking.

Perception changes and seeking ends….but that is also just a story. For what exactly is it that could possibly be seeking anything when everything already IS. There has never been someone/something seeking.

Kay xxoo

Hello Kay,

Thank you very much for what you do here and for your help with the registration problem. I read through all the formalities in your first post so I am clear on that. I meant to put that in my first post but didn't....anyway...

I would ask that while we are doing this exploration that you stop reading the threads.

Understood. I will totally focus on our work here.

There is no separate individual/entity that can experience anything either pleasant or unpleasant or is hoping for experiences to return. These are all actual experience of thought but what the thoughts are about are story.

Didn't notice anything coming up here. I see that pleasant or unpleasant is just a label put on AE.

In actual experience there are no negative emotions or positive emotions and no one/nothing that is experiencing these. There is no experience-er that is experiencing experience. Experience just IS. There is no one identifying with thoughts. Thought + colour/image + sensation which are the actual experience (AE) of what is labelled as a ‘person’ cannot identify with or identify something as anything. ‘You’ are not a person and never have been and you have never lived or are living a life.

Some joy and excitement rising up sensations in the belly and chest labelled pleasant. Thought with "I would like to see this to be true" content

Freedom already IS. There is no separate individual who is striving or has desire or who can avoid or resist anything. And there is no ‘thinker’.

Again excitement and joy is present with sensations in the chest labelled pleasant. "Freedom already IS" is especially impactful

The label ‘acceptance’ points to a something/someone that is having an experience. There is no such something/someone. ‘Acceptance’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the actual experience of someone/something that is accepting of anything

No emotions or sensations but I see what your saying here that acceptance is just AE of thought

Thank you

Wes

Hi Wes!

Thank you very much for what you do here and for your help with the registration problem. I read through all the formalities in your first post so I am clear on that. I meant to put that in my first post but didn't....anyway...

My pleasure! :) My part is relatively easy….I only point…it’s up to you to LOOK! Thank you for reading through the formalities and being clear on them.

So what is LOOKING?
‘Looking’ is just plain looking to what is here right now ie the actual experience of sound, taste, smell, colour/image, sensation (tactile/kinaesthetic) and noticing thoughts – not thinking, but being ‘aware’ of thoughts. When you need your car keys and look everywhere for them – that is looking. Thoughts tend to pull you away from looking directly, as by directly looking at actual experience, you will inevitably unveil the ‘trick’ they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

I would ask that while we are doing this exploration that you stop reading the threads.

Understood. I will totally focus on our work here.

Thank you :)

There is no separate individual/entity that can experience anything either pleasant or unpleasant or is hoping for experiences to return. These are all actual experience of thought but what the thoughts are about are story.

Didn't notice anything coming up here. I see that pleasant or unpleasant is just a label put on AE.

Yes, and the AE of ‘pleasant’ and ‘unpleasant’ is thought. Thought, like sound, sensation, smell, taste and colour/image, is a phenomena (indescribable). A seeming variety of thought seems to appear and disappear, but what thoughts are ABOUT (the content/what they say) is fiction.

In actual experience there are no negative emotions or positive emotions and no one/nothing that is experiencing these. There is no experience-er that is experiencing experience. Experience just IS. There is no one identifying with thoughts. Thought + colour/image + sensation which are the actual experience (AE) of what is labelled as a ‘person’ cannot identify with or identify something as anything. ‘You’ are not a person and never have been and you have never lived or are living a life.

Some joy and excitement rising up sensations in the belly and chest labelled pleasant. Thought with "I would like to see this to be true" content

Where exactly is the “I” located who “would like to see this to be true”?

The label “pleasant” is the AE of thought and not the AE of pleasant
The sensation labelled “pleasant” is the AE of sensation and not the AE of pleasant
The colour/image labelled as “body/chest/Wes” is the AE of colour/image and not the AE of pleasant.

Freedom already IS. There is no separate individual who is striving or has desire or who can avoid or resist anything. And there is no ‘thinker’.

Again excitement and joy is present with sensations in the chest labelled pleasant. "Freedom already IS" is especially impactful

“Excitement” and “joy” are states of being and states of being come and go and are in and of themselves totally meaningless. There has never been anyone/anything who has been free or not free….everything just IS.

The label ‘acceptance’ points to a something/someone that is having an experience. There is no such something/someone. ‘Acceptance’ is the actual experience (AE) of thought and not the actual experience of someone/something that is accepting of anything.

No emotions or sensations but I see what your saying here that acceptance is just AE of thought

Yes, the label ‘acceptance’ is the AE of thought.
Can you find anyone or anything that can accept or reject anything?

There are no emotions in actual experience. Thought + sensation have no correlation. It is only another appearing thought that ‘says’ a thought/label (eg fear) + sensation (feelings) = an emotion (anger, jealousy, sadness, joy, excitement etc)

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/ image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So as you become aware of:

Seeing a tree, simply= image/colour
Smelling the coffee = smell/aroma
Feel the wind on your face or touching a table = sensation.
Tasting the toothpaste on your toothbrush = taste
Hearing a car drive by = sound
Thought about work = thought. (Thoughts can be words and mental images)

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

Please answer questions individually that are highlighted in blue using the quote function.

Kay xxoo

Hi Kay!

Where exactly is the “I” located who “would like to see this to be true”?

When looking for myself all that I find are sensations of the head and chest along with a thought/ an image of the upper body (head chest) when eyes are closed. There is not a me there but this is what feels like me.

Can you find anyone or anything that can accept or reject anything?

I struggled with this one for a while. There was a flashlight there on the table so I thought I would set it in front of me and push it away (reject) or pick it up (accept) a number of times and see what is happening in AE. Long story short, the process seemed random. Thought was not present every time the flashlight was moved, sometimes it ocurred before, sometimes after and it did not always agree with what actually happened. Many thoughts like 'you're fooling yourself' 'This isn't scientific' came up.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/ image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

This was really good. I read your post this morning before work so I had all day to work on it. I was able to remember it most of the day and it brought me to a richer experience of experience lol. I also realized that this is what is real! The experience itself! AE isnt just a point of view its what is real....all the rest..concepts, labels, stories ...content of thought is not real! The funny thing is, is that thoughts kept conceptualizing what I was seeing and realizing...which is false and not real. I realized that I don't want any concept or idea so just drop em
I also noticed that thought is sometimes difficult to notice, many many times I was carried away by it. Now its late in the evening and the experience of AE isn't happening as strongly as it was but thats ok, experience is always changing.

Thanks so much,

Wes

Hi Wes,

I enjoyed reading your post :)

Where exactly is the “I” located who “would like to see this to be true”?

When looking for myself all that I find are sensations of the head and chest along with a thought/ an image of the upper body (head chest) when eyes are closed. There is not a me there but this is what feels like me.

Nice! So thought points to the sensations and images labelled “head” and “chest” and further labels them as a “me”, a separate individual/entity.

So close your eyes and put the tip of a finger to the top of your “head”. Now drop all thoughts and images….and what is really there? Do the same to the “chest” as well. Let me know what you find.

Can you find anyone or anything that can accept or reject anything?

I struggled with this one for a while. There was a flashlight there on the table so I thought I would set it in front of me and push it away (reject) or pick it up (accept) a number of times and see what is happening in AE. Long story short, the process seemed random. Thought was not present every time the flashlight was moved, sometimes it ocurred before, sometimes after and it did not always agree with what actually happened. Many thoughts like 'you're fooling yourself' 'This isn't scientific' came up.

With that exercise you got to see that there is no one controlling what is happening and that there is no correlation between thought and what occurs (ie cause and effect).

The label ‘accept’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of (someone) accepting (anything)
The label “reject” is the AE of thought and not the AE of (someone) rejecting (anything)
Can you see this?

So can a thought ‘accept/reject’ anything?
Can a sound ‘accept/reject’ anything?
Can a taste ‘accept/reject’ anything?
Can a sensation ‘accept/reject’ anything?
Can a colour/image ‘accept/reject’ anything?
Can a smell ‘accept/reject’ anything?
If not…what then exactly is it that can either reject or accept anything?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/ image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

This was really good. I read your post this morning before work so I had all day to work on it. I was able to remember it most of the day and it brought me to a richer experience of experience lol. I also realized that this is what is real! The experience itself! AE isnt just a point of view its what is real....all the rest..concepts, labels, stories ...content of thought is not real! The funny thing is, is that thoughts kept conceptualizing what I was seeing and realizing...which is false and not real. I realized that I don't want any concept or idea so just drop em
I also noticed that thought is sometimes difficult to notice, many many times I was carried away by it. Now its late in the evening and the experience of AE isn't happening as strongly as it was but thats ok, experience is always changing.

Glad you liked it! Concepts are made up of a multitude of thoughts, and thoughts are actual experience but only as the face value of thought (the literal thought itself) and not what meaning the thoughts have been given. Thoughts either point to actual experience or they point to further thought stories, but thoughts themselves do not contain any experience whatsoever. If thought contained experience then the word ‘sweet’ would taste sweet!

Let's have a LOOK at a 'red rose' as an example.

The label ‘red’ points to the AE of colour.

The label ‘rose’ is the AE of thought
But what it points to is more thoughts that describe a rose (ie beautiful flower that grows on a thorny bush and has a lovely smell) BUT the rose is just a story and does not exist.

What is a rose?




Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?

But look again - all that is ‘actually’ present are red and green, a nice smell and maybe an 'ouch' sensation. The ‘rose itself’ is only a story.

Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose, just fictional stories about experience.
Beyond the story, can any of them be found to exist at all?
Can you see that the rose is 100% just a story?

Let's break a 'rose' down into AE
What is the AE of a rose?
The label ‘rose is the AE of thought and not the AE of rose
The smell labelled as ‘rose’ is the AE of smell and not the AE of a rose
The colour/image labelled as ‘rose’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of a rose.
The sensation labelled ‘ouch’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of a prick of a rose thorn

So the AE of a rose is that it does not exist...what is actually appearing is thought + smell + colour/image + sensation.
Can you see this?


Keep on doing the labelling exercise of experience for the next couple of days.

Love, Kay

Hi Kay,

Spent the day doing the labelling exercise, had a little more difficulty today catching thoughts. I am curious about one thing. I always assumed that thoughts always appeared then disappeared quickly, rolling along kind of like train cars, this is how I've always been aware of them..one moment there, the next gone, but do they sometimes stick? It seems that this happens and for some reason I have a hard time seeing those. Maybe this is just some unclear seeing. The reason I ask is that maybe a thought like that is there and it colors perception and is less noticable. Kind of glowing there in the background? I might be going down a rabbit trail here

So close your eyes and put the tip of a finger to the top of your “head”. Now drop all thoughts and images….and what is really there? Do the same to the “chest” as well. Let me know what you find.

There is only sensation

The label ‘accept’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of (someone) accepting (anything)
The label “reject” is the AE of thought and not the AE of (someone) rejecting (anything)
Can you see this?

Yes

So can a thought ‘accept/reject’ anything?

No

Can a sound ‘accept/reject’ anything?

No

Can a taste ‘accept/reject’ anything?

No

Can a sensation ‘accept/reject’ anything?

No

Can a colour/image ‘accept/reject’ anything?

No

Can a smell ‘accept/reject’ anything?

No

If not…what then exactly is it that can either reject or accept anything?

There's nothing else that exists! Haha!

Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose, just fictional stories about experience.
Beyond the story, can any of them be found to exist at all?

Not at all

Can you see that the rose is 100% just a story?

Yes

So the AE of a rose is that it does not exist...what is actually appearing is thought + smell + colour/image + sensation.
Can you see this?

Yes.

Theres laughter happening here and big smiles!

Thank you for the rose Kay!!

Wes

Hey Wes!

Theres laughter happening here and big smiles!

Haha! How marvellous! I am smiling big smiles too! :)

Spent the day doing the labelling exercise, had a little more difficulty today catching thoughts. I am curious about one thing. I always assumed that thoughts always appeared then disappeared quickly, rolling along kind of like train cars, this is how I've always been aware of them..one moment there, the next gone, but do they sometimes stick? It seems that this happens and for some reason I have a hard time seeing those. Maybe this is just some unclear seeing. The reason I ask is that maybe a thought like that is there and it colors perception and is less noticable. Kind of glowing there in the background? I might be going down a rabbit trail here

We are going to be looking at thoughts next….let’s see if you can answer your own question.

So close your eyes and put the tip of a finger to the top of your “head”. Now drop all thoughts and images….and what is really there? Do the same to the “chest” as well. Let me know what you find.

There is only sensation

Yes, so is there really a ‘head’, ‘chest’ or a ‘finger tip’ found anywhere?
An image of a head’, ‘chest’ and ‘finger tip’ may appear (as a mental image or a visual image), but they are the AE of colour/image and not the AE of an actual head’, ‘chest’ or ‘finger-tip’.
Can you see this?

If not…what then exactly is it that can either reject or accept anything?

There's nothing else that exists! Haha!

Yes…exactly! Nice :)

Thank you for the rose Kay!!

(Smiling big)…you’re welcome :)

Here is a thought exercise. Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

- Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
- Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
- Where are they coming from?
- Where are they going?
- Can you predict your next thought?
- Can you push away any thought?
- Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
- Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
- Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
- Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
- Is it possible to control any thoughts?
- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Please look carefully when doing this exercise and answer all questions individually using the quote function. Do the exercise a couple of times if necessary.

Love, Kay

.

Hi Kay,

I worked on the thought exercise a couple of times today for about thirty minutes but I would like to put some more time into it to get clear answers for your questions, is it ok if I get back to you tomorrow on those?

So close your eyes and put the tip of a finger to the top of your “head”. Now drop all thoughts and images….and what is really there? Do the same to the “chest” as well. Let me know what you find.

There is only sensation

Yes, so is there really a ‘head’, ‘chest’ or a ‘finger tip’ found anywhere?

In AE there is only tactile sensation. Mental images suggest head, chest, finger but none of those exist.

An image of a head’, ‘chest’ and ‘finger tip’ may appear (as a mental image or a visual image), but they are the AE of colour/image and not the AE of an actual head’, ‘chest’ or ‘finger-tip’.
Can you see this?

Yes. Even when looking at the finger on my hand I'm not seeing a finger, thought divides it out of the visual field and labels it 'finger'

Thank you for the exercises I've been enjoying them.

Thanks,
Wes

Hi Wes...by all means, you take as much time as you need :)

Love, Kay

Hello Kay,

Thank you for the the extra day, I'm clear on most of the answers.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, I tried thinking certain thoughts but noticed eventually that the intention to do so was a thought itself.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, a specific thought just appears then that moment is gone... everything happens in the immediate moment.

Where are they coming from?

I cannot sense where they are coming from..they just appear.

Where are they going?

No sense of a place they go to, they are just gone.

Can you predict your next thought?

The prediction would be that next thought, so no. Laughing when I think about this

Can you push away any thought?

No, thought just comes and goes.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I tried this starting with the thought 'pleasant thoughts' followed by a few, an image of puppies...image of my children...then an image of war popped up.. so no. Just an example of one of several times I looked at this.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No, once its there, its there.

Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

choice is just a thought, and thought can't choose, but this can seem to happen but even if a choice is seemingly made future thought cannot obey that thought.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It seems that I can, but the 'choice' is just a thought that I didn't choose.

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

No, they just appear and disappear on their own.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

No

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I really looked at this because thought does seem to follow a logical sequence. When I did this exercise I have to admit that thought is random, but it seems that when attention is focused on a task that thought follows a sequence. Right now as I answer these questions I'm looking to see if thought is logical or not. Maybe there is an assumption that thought drives action. I know that things happen automatically sometimes but in answering these questions I would think that thought would drive it....looking into the process right now....maybe thought is not preceding the words I type...I'm having a hard time seeing how thought is involved as I type right now.

Well looking at thought as I was writing seemed to just grind everything to a halt..My answer to this question right now is that thought is just random when eyes are closed and thought is noticed. If my attention is focused on a task thought seems more ordered, but I need to look at this some more. I will look at this during the next day or so

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Wes

Hi Wes,

You’re answers about thought are very clear! Thank you for being so willing to LOOK and to LOOK carefully.

Thank you for the the extra day, I'm clear on most of the answers.

This is your exploration, so if you need the extra time then you take it. Just let me know. 

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, I tried thinking certain thoughts but noticed eventually that the intention to do so was a thought itself.

Lol yes!

Can you predict your next thought?

The prediction would be that next thought, so no. Laughing when I think about this

Yes! (smiling)

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I tried this starting with the thought 'pleasant thoughts' followed by a few, an image of puppies...image of my children...then an image of war popped up.. so no. Just an example of one of several times I looked at this.

Nice! Great example!

Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

choice is just a thought, and thought can't choose, but this can seem to happen but even if a choice is seemingly made future thought cannot obey that thought.

No…a thought can’t do anything. The literal thought, “I am choosing to make a cup of coffee” is a thought only and cannot choose to make a coffee or not!

What exactly is it that could/is making a choice?
What exactly is it that has choices?
What exactly is it that can choose between seeming choices?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It seems that I can, but the 'choice' is just a thought that I didn't choose.

Yes, there is no author or owner of thoughts. (Seems = thought)
Can an author/owner of thoughts be found anywhere?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I really looked at this because thought does seem to follow a logical sequence. When I did this exercise I have to admit that thought is random, but it seems that when attention is focused on a task that thought follows a sequence. Right now as I answer these questions I'm looking to see if thought is logical or not. Maybe there is an assumption that thought drives action. I know that things happen automatically sometimes but in answering these questions I would think that thought would drive it....looking into the process right now....maybe thought is not preceding the words I type...I'm having a hard time seeing how thought is involved as I type right now.

Where is this “I” that is typing?
How is it known that there is an “I” that is typing?
What is the AE of “typing”?

Well looking at thought as I was writing seemed to just grind everything to a halt..My answer to this question right now is that thought is just random when eyes are closed and thought is noticed. If my attention is focused on a task thought seems more ordered, but I need to look at this some more. I will look at this during the next day or so

How is it known that thoughts are appearing in some sort of logical sequence? Because another thought says so?

There is an assumption here of cause and effect. That a cause (thought) creates an action (effect). If that were the case, if you think of an elephant right now, why doesn’t an elephant appear in your living room?

Cause and effect is also the belief in time.
How is it known that a thought occurred before the action or vice versa? The idea is that a thought occurred first FOLLOWED by an action…which intimates time. How is it known that thought and action go hand-in-hand?

What is it exactly that is thinking in logical ordered sequence?

Love, Kay

Hi Kay,

I have to go out of town unexpectedly. Will be getting ready tonight to leave in the morning. I will have access to the internet so I should be able to reply tomorrow. I have been looking into your questions.

Talk to you soon,

Wes