Excited to be here! And to live in self-less-ness.

[ha2]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I found this forum via a Reddit post, and read through Gateless Gatecrashers and the iPhone app. Now I figured I should come to the forum to get more information.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I understand that there is no self but I am not certain I *KNOW* it experientially - it makes sense that we are bundles of conditioning and sensations and emotions and that the sense of I is just in thoughts that repeat. I can get into a mode where it feels like this body-mind complex is a machine and I just watch it work automatically, but if I don't maintain this state (it takes energy) I fall back into identity and worrying about "me". Wondering if this is normal?

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
10 years of meditation, more recently looking at my own identity and reading about nonduality

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

[ElPortal]

HI there, welcome to LU and thanks for your initial answers to those questions.

If a permanent better state of being is sought, then I cannot help you. What we are talking about here is simply what is, what always has been, and what can only ever, be the case. Is this what you have come for? If so, I may be able to accompany you.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

Hi Mark,

Apologies for the delayed response. I've been pouring over nonduality books to see if I could find answers to my own questions, but I think your help to see truth would be very helpful. Yes, I have very much come for this.

Appreciate your help and time,

Hursh

[ElPortal]

HI Hursh, and pleased to 'meet' you.

Before we go further let's just clear up some basic housework around having a dialogue here. please take careful note:-

A few guidelines: look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to say if a break is needed. Please only embark on this investigation together if you are prepared to set aside any other teachings (including reading, listening to talks etc) and spiritual practices during our inquiry together (other than a daily meditation or yoga). Instead, give all your attention now to this investigation. I am not here to teach or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?

If you could confirm that you have read the LU disclaimer, here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
and the article on direct experience, here: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
and that you would still like me to guide you - then we shall continue!

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

PS leaving aside other teachings etc includes leaving aside all the other dialogues in this forum: just concentrating on this exploration here Ready to do that, or not?

M

[ha2]

Agreed to set aside any other teachings and spiritual practices. I also read the direct experience article and the disclaimer. And ok! No reading other people's dialogues as well. I was actually planning on it to prepare myself but will not now.

Ready to do all the above and will reply daily.

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh,

That's great thanks.

So let's start by noticing the difference between two 'modes' of experience, one direct and the other via the mode of thinking.

Please sit for two minutes and simply notice all that happens.
Make a list of all that is experienced.
Then, when you have finished, after each item on the list add either "(E" or "(T)".
Then let me have your list.

(E) is for each item which is experienced via the senses eg. "hunger pangs in stomach (E)"
(T) is for those items which are thought eg "What shall I eat for dinner this evening?"(T) or 'When was last meal?" (T)

So here we are noticing the difference between all that IS happening ie the firsthand RAW experience in this moment (E), on the one hand, and all that is NOT actually happening except in thinking ie thought matter such as explanations, assumptions, mental commentary, interpretation, memories, speculations, mental inferences, beliefs, intellectual debating etc etc (T)

Each time when you read, consider and respond to my posts, I am interested not just in your answers to what I write, but just as much, if not more, in any sensations and reactions which come up, eg if there is a tightening in the chest, a relaxation feeling, or a pressure in the head etc, so please let me know about these too ok?

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

(E) Looking out my windows
(E) Looking at the rain outside my window
(E) feeling the cold of my laptop in my lap
(T) thinking about how it's cold in this room
(E) taste of the banana i just ate in my mouth
(E) noticing my breathing - the feel of my breath going in and out of my lungs
(T) thought about appointments i have later today
(T) thought that if i don't write all this down i'll forget it
(T) the thought that i'm not having any thoughts
(T) the thought that that thought disproves that
(E) feeling my cold toes
(T) thought that i should wear some socks
(E) looking around my room - the light coming in from my windows
(T) thinking about the time and whether two minutes are up
(E) looking at my bookshelf
(T) thought that i need to get it painted

There must have been more but I don't remember them as I write this a few minutes later. No physical or emotional reactions just yet (probably since we're just starting out?).

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Thanks, that's excellent.

Now let's review the list:-

E) Looking out my windows
(E) Looking at the rain outside my window
(E) feeling the cold of my laptop in my lap
(T) thinking about how it's cold in this room
(E) taste of the banana i just ate in my mouth
(E) noticing my breathing - the feel of my breath going in and out of my lungs
(T) thought about appointments i have later today
(T) thought that if i don't write all this down i'll forget it
(T) the thought that i'm not having any thoughts
(T) the thought that that thought disproves that
(E) feeling my cold toes
(T) thought that i should wear some socks
(E) looking around my room - the light coming in from my windows
(T) thinking about the time and whether two minutes are up
(E) looking at my bookshelf
(T) thought that i need to get it painted

..and before we move on from it, I would like you to re-write it doing 2 things just with the (E)'s:-
1. wherever there is "I", "my" or "me" re-form the phrase without those words eg "feeling my cold toes (E)" might become "feeling cold toes (E)" or "feeling these cold toes (E)" etc.
2. try to replace all the solid objects with describing words (even though this may lead to some invented words) eg "feeling cold toes (E)" might become "cold-toey feeling (E)" etc.

When you have finished your re-write, have a read and let me know whether and how that feels different from how it was before.

There must have been more but I don't remember them as I write this a few minutes later. No physical or emotional reactions just yet (probably since we're just starting out?).

This is just fine. We'll just get into the habit of noticing and reporting whatever sensations are coming up as we go along, whether they seem important or not, as part of the investigation.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

(E) window noticing
(E) rain noticing
(E) cold lap feeling
(T) thought about how it's cold in this room
(E) banana taste appearing
(E) breath flowing feeling
(T) thought about appointments i have later today
(T) thought that if i don't write all this down i'll forget it
(T) the thought that i'm not having any thoughts
(T) the thought that that thought disproves that
(E) cold-toes feeling
(T) thought that i should wear some socks
(E) bring-light window noticing
(T) thinking about the time and whether two minutes are up
(E) bookshelf noticing
(T) thought that i need to get it painted


Hm is that better? I left the thoughts as they were.

This feels different because it implies the experiences are appearing instead of happening to me. It makes me feel happier because it matches the model of thinking (arisings appearing in awareness) that i've been reading about in gateless gatecrashers and the nonduality books (although I will try not to refer to them since this is a separate exercise).

[ha2]

Few other things:

- Reading the thoughts now seem out of place and silly since they are referring to self that the experiences aren't consistent with.
- The experiences feel somehow shorter or more like singular items rather than an ongoing action. "Cold lap feeling" sounds like a noun and a single event, whereas "feeling the cold of my laptop in my lap" is more like a verb and feels like it isn't a discrete unit.

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh

Thanks for your revised list: great job!! And thanks for the second post with the additional observations too.

"Cold lap feeling" sounds like a noun and a single event, whereas "feeling the cold of my laptop in my lap" is more like a verb and feels like it isn't a discrete unit.

How about something like 'coldish-lappish sensation'? How does that feel? We can play with the words themselves, you know.

the model of thinking (arisings appearing in awareness) that i've been reading about in gateless gatecrashers and the nonduality books (although I will try not to refer to them since this is a separate exercise).

Yes, as agreed, we are leaving aside all teachers and teachings, in favour of investigating THIS experience NOW aren't we? Have an honest look: when you say 'arisings appearing in awareness', does a certain teacher with his/her concepts come into the mental picture, offering some sort of 'comfort' that 'this person must really know what he/she is talking about, 'he/she' is really famous and respected and seems pretty calm etc etc ... or something like that?
So can we leave all those concepts and beliefs behind, simply looking into THIS?

Now tell me one sensation which feels ALIVE in this moment.

As I have already said, I am interested in this moment, and the sensations which present.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

How about something like 'coldish-lappish sensation'? How does that feel? We can play with the words themselves, you know.

Interesting. I like that too but it doesn't intuitively feel different to me than "cold lap sensation". In either case it's a sensation that describes (or refers to?) a coldness in the lap area.

Yes, as agreed, we are leaving aside all teachers and teachings, in favour of investigating THIS experience NOW aren't we? Have an honest look: when you say 'arisings appearing in awareness', does a certain teacher with his/her concepts come into the mental picture, offering some sort of 'comfort' that 'this person must really know what he/she is talking about, 'he/she' is really famous and respected and seems pretty calm etc etc ... or something like that?

Hm, not so much the teacher (since I haven't met or seen the authors of these books) but the model comes to mind, and how my (admittedly limited) investigation seems to conform to the model they present. It seems to make sense. I can see, though, that me adopting someone else's model can be detrimental since I'm not basing my understanding on investigation and experience, but taking someone else's word for it.

So can we leave all those concepts and beliefs behind, simply looking into THIS?

Sounds good!

Now tell me one sensation which feels ALIVE in this moment.

Tiredness in this moment. Eyelids drooping and head wanting to nod off. Legs feel fatigued.

[ElPortal]

Hi Hursh, and thanks for that response. Nice and clear.

Hm, not so much the teacher (since I haven't met or seen the authors of these books) but the model comes to mind, and how my (admittedly limited) investigation seems to conform to the model they present. It seems to make sense. I can see, though, that me adopting someone else's model can be detrimental since I'm not basing my understanding on investigation and experience, but taking someone else's word for it.

Exactly.

Interesting. I like that too but it doesn't intuitively feel different to me than "cold lap sensation". In either case it's a sensation that describes (or refers to?) a coldness in the lap area.

We are almost splitting hairs here, as the words will always be labels (T), no matter how we phrase them, won't they? They will never be the experience. May just be worth considering, before we move on, whether the apparent location involved in body locations (eg cold foot, feel of table on hand, bottom on chair) whether (not just the object descriptions but) the actual bodily locations are actually (E) or might the coordinate information, no matter how real it seems, be generated in (T)? No need to hypothesise about this intellectually, just report back on what FEELS real on this.

Cheers

Mark

[ha2]

We are almost splitting hairs here, as the words will always be labels (T), no matter how we phrase them, won't they? They will never be the experience.

Yes, this makes sense.

May just be worth considering, before we move on, whether the apparent location involved in body locations (eg cold foot, feel of table on hand, bottom on chair) whether (not just the object descriptions but) the actual bodily locations are actually (E) or might the coordinate information, no matter how real it seems, be generated in (T)? No need to hypothesise about this intellectually, just report back on what FEELS real on this.

Hmmm the location of the sensation doesn't feel any less real than the sensation itself. It would make sense to me to say both of them are generated in (T) or neither, but feels weird to divorce the location and sensation.