The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
After several years of seeking what is "reality" through yoga, meditation, advaita vedanta, it appears a break through, headed in the right direction in terms of breaking free from belief in a self is here.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
Looking to drop all irrational beliefs, religious dogma, break free from delusion.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?: Meditation, yoga, advaita vedanta, (Adi Shankara), reflection and meditation on Upanishads and Brahma Sutras.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

Are there any guides currently online?

Hi, vince here.
When you say that you are 11/10 ready to question your beliefs, how do you know this ?
Is there a feeling associated with thoughts ?
If you have a belief, how do you know that it is a belief ? (doesn't the belief become invisible, masquerading as knowledge ?)

vince

Hello, Vince, sorry it has taken awhile to answer this posting. Just became aware of it today.

When "I" wrote being 11/10 ready to question my beliefs yes, a feeling of determination arose, along with doubt concerning the beliefs of "I Am this or that. " Then the question arose in the mind, what if the self identity is false, just a belief? What if the reality is that all that exists is body and mind and there never was an individual "I".

For me, a belief is something that has not been proven to be correct nor incorrect, rather it has been widely accepted. Would prefer to break free from beliefs.

Here is what I did, I sat, took a few long, deep, inhalations, followed by long exhalations, let the mind become still. No thoughts drifted in. I had my eyes open and noticed there is just awareness. The eyes saw the objects in the room, yet there was no self identification with any of the objects. No association or thought such as.... there is my aloe plant. It is like a bunch of processes occurring. Nothing is I, me, or mine, eye organ sees, ear organ hears, nose organ picks up on scents, tongue organ tastes and then of course, all the internal organs have their functions and processes in which there is no I, me, or self performing the functions or processes.

From direct experience, what can be seen clearly, is how everything changes. The transient nature of all things. Nothing stays the same, constantly in flux. Not that this is good or bad. It's just the way it is.

Good evening BF, Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self ?
Can you explain from your own experience, what the cosmic joke is ?

Would prefer to break free from beliefs.

Would you settle for the recognition that a belief was about to become operative ? (while they weaken and eventually evaporate - ..or not)

Then the question arose in the mind, what if the self identity is false, just a belief?

Great question. But a more useful one might be; If the self identity is just a story (belief), then how has everything happened ? (that needed to happen)

What if the reality is that all that exists is body and mind and there never was an individual "I".

What if the reality is that all that exists, without the help of thought (concept) is sensation ?
What if "body and mind", was pure concept. A label for something that doesn't actually exist as a first person experience.

vince

Hello Vince,

Yes, would definitely say have seen through the illusion of a separate self. A cosmic joke? Sorry, don't see that there is a cosmic joke at all. From remembering events from early childhood, "I" can see how the illusion is planted and allowed to grow and flourish by the early interactions we have with adults, family members, teachers, friends, etc. It's more like we are influenced or perhaps the better way to phrase it is..... our early conditioning. Yes, self identity is just a story in which we all get caught up in.

"Would you settle for the recognition that a belief was about to become operative?"
Not sure exactly what this question means. Please elaborate more. Also please go into more detail regarding..... "then how has everything happened?"

The body is a visible, material object, not a lasting object, as the nature of it is to age and as everyone knows dies. Good point regarding mind being a concept. What is the mind, probably just a label we use, like an umbrella type term to cover mental processes. Just a hunch, a guess. So mind may be just a concept. Okay, now, how could the reality be that all that exists is sensation?

Is this a round about way of stating nothing exists INDEPEDENTLY? That all things are dependent upon other factors and or conditions. Or to put it another way, everything is connected, linked together, a unified whole?

Good morning BF,

Yes, would definitely say have seen through the illusion of a separate self.

Excellent.
On the surface, that is what LU is about, however when somebody like yourself turns up, i like to check if there is any other identification happening.
If you're not a Self, what are you ? (a soul ?, awareness ?, etc ?)

"Would you settle for the recognition that a belief was about to become operative?"
Not sure exactly what this question means. Please elaborate more.

Yes, what i was meaning was that the beliefs that are operating are conditioned, and (probably) won't stop instantly.
The road to their dissolution, is awareness. When you recognize that a belief has been/is/about to become operative, that conditioning is weakened.

"then how has everything happened?"

This question was; "If there is no Self, running the show, then how did everything happen (that needed to happen for things to be the way they are.)

The body is a visible, material object, not a lasting object, as the nature of it is to age and as everyone knows dies.

This is (probably good) conjecture.
Remove the mental processes that were involved in you coming up with this statement, and what is left ? (don't use mind to do this. LOOK for what exists before thoughts arrive to explain/describe/categorize.

What is the mind, probably just a label we use, like an umbrella type term to cover mental processes.

Yes, just as "body" is an umbrella term for the mental construct of limbs and trunk and head, etc, being assembled in a particular way.
Think of your right big toe.
Now, keep thinking of your toe, and think of your nose.
Were you able to think of both at the same time ? ..or was there quick oscillations between them ?
If you are aware of your toe, then you can add the concept that this belongs to a concept called "body".
Now if you are aware of your nose, and call that part of a body, you only have memory of the toe.
Sure you can add the memory to the bigger concept, but when we have the all of the bits together in the concept called "body", there is still a lot of bits that we don't experience. (how do you know that there is a kidney in there?)
So "body" is a useful story, but at an expriential level, it doesn't exist.
What are your thoughts on this ?

Okay, now, how could the reality be that all that exists is sensation?

From the perspective of the body/mind organism, is there anything else except sensation and thought ? ..anything else at all ?
So the fact of a thought is 'real'. There is no question that a thought occurred ? What gives that thought existence is concept. Story. Thoughts are ALWAYS about something. Right ? They are never the thing itself. They always refer to something.
The senses are the input to the body (ha, convenient concept) and in this light i would include mind as a sense input.
For all practical purposes, we respond to thoughts, just as we respond to input to the other senses.
Stimulated Senses = Sensations.
The organism experiences sensations, and concept. Can you think of anything else ?

Is this a round about way of stating nothing exists INDEPEDENTLY?

If you grok the above pointing, then you have to come to the conclusion, that this cannot be known. It's still in the grab bag i call 'the great mystery'.
Have you experienced experiencing without the overlay of thought ?
Try this; take an object sitting on your desk and put it where you can see it clearly.
Now just look and watch both the input from your visual sense, and watch what thoughts do.
Don't focus sharply on either until things quieten down, then intensify the acuity of the visual sense while withdrawing focus on what thoughts are happening. Eventually just aware of the existence of thoughts without any need to know what they are about. Looking... Seeing, as if for the very first time...

Report your memory of experiencing.

love

vince

Warm Greetings Vince,

1. "If you are not a Self, what are you? (a soul,? awareness,? etc.)"

None of the above. The way it is now seen is, a temporary human life form currently exists which has awareness, has consciousness. Like the Self, no soul was found inside any part of the body. Soul turned out to be another conditioned concept which was fed to me in early childhood.

2. " Would you settle for the recognition that a belief was about to become operative?"

Yes, and thank you for explaining its meaning. Agree, the road to the dissolution of conditioned beliefs is awareness.

3. "If there is no Self running the show, then how did everything happen (that needed to happen for things to be the way they are?)

Things happen due to various causes, while human beings have the ability to pick and choose, make decisions, the outcome of choices, decisions vary. For example: A person pursues a certain career, later on, that career becomes obsolete due to technical advances whereby a person is no longer needed to perform the job. Many things are beyond human control such as weather. We can not control weather, weather happens due to causes and conditions.
Some things just happen, such as where we are born, who our parents were/are.

4. "What exists before thoughts arise?"

Before any thoughts arise there is stillness, followed by tranquility.

5. There was a rapid shift between thinking toe, nose both were not thought simultaneously. By looking at human anatomy charts, books, watching medical videos where autopsies are done one can see where the various organs are and what they look like. Yes, "I" have viewed such material which is interesting, informative while others are repulsed by such things. When standing in front of a full length mirror, the image of a physical form/body is seen. The mirror reflects what is in front of it.

6. Correct, Vince , thoughts are always about something. True, the organism experiences sensations it also experiences thoughts, and emotions. What about consciousness being a sense input? In order for a response to occur wouldn't consciousness or awareness play a part in all this?

A white, round, coffee filter basket was the object nearby that was used for the visual sense. No thoughts entered, waited, stared at the object, noticed its color, the word, white came and went, a long gap, no thoughts, until the sound of a vehicle going by was heard and then the word, 'truck' arose. the house sets back off a frequently traveled highway, over time the sounds of various vehicles going by became embedded in memory. This is my experience of experiencing.

Good evening BF.

human life form currently exists which has awareness, has consciousness.

Are you saying that awareness and consciousness have intrinsic qualities ? One of which is independence ?

the outcome of choices, decisions vary.

Would you say that this means that no actual choice or decision was ever made ? Just some token with the label of choice or decision ?
Do this; Lift your left hand.
Now surely, the mind comes in and says that you could have not done it (or done it), but the outcome was the result of ALL of the necessary conditions for it to happen. (or not) Would you agree ?
Was there any choice or decision ? ..or did it happen for unknown reasons ?

"What exists before thoughts arise?"
Before any thoughts arise there is stillness, followed by tranquility.

Is this from experience or deduction ?

There was a rapid shift between thinking toe, nose both were not thought simultaneously.

Yes. my point(ing) is that as you can only be aware of one part of the body at a time, how can you know that a group of bits with the label "body", actually exists ?

In order for a response to occur wouldn't consciousness or awareness play a part in all this?

Consciousness and awareness are words that make me uncomfortable.
If you rephrase the question to this; In order for a response to occur wouldn't being conscious or aware of ... play a part ? Then i would say, "yes, along with all of the other necessary conditions." (although there may be exceptions to this)

This is my experience of experiencing.

Excellent. ..and were you aware of perceiving happening in the absence of thoughts ?

love

vince

Good evening, Vince,

It appears, consciousness exists, but the awareness aspect, the act of being aware of what is occurring at any given moment appears to be something which at times may be high or low. In other words, alert, focused,etc.

No, not exactly, random happenings, the decision or choice to act was made. The act, set the stage for results/outcomes. Causes and conditions.

No, Vince, this is not a deduction. It is direct experience.

The rephrasing to...... " being conscious or aware " works well.

Yes, Vince, the ability to perceive "Happening"( or do you mean, the present moment of being?) in the absence of thoughts was experienced.

Thank you, kindly, for guiding this process! Feels like mission completed. :-)

With Best Wishes and Regards,
BreakingFree, who Broke Free

G'day wBF,

It appears, consciousness exists,

Yes, certainly IT APPEARS this way. Just as a Self APPEARS to exist. Just as water APPEARS to exist in a mirage.
What is your relationship with "consciousness" ?
Does consciousness have intrinsic qualities ?

Yes. my point(ing) is that as you can only be aware of one part of the body at a time, how can you know that a group of bits with the label "body", actually exists ?

You didn't respond to this one..

Thank you, kindly, for guiding this process! Feels like mission completed. :-)

You're welcome. Oh, am i being dismissed ? (If i am, then is it because some cognitive dissonance was being experienced ? ..or something else ?)

vince

Good evening, Vince,

"What is your relationship with consciousness? Does consciousness have intrinsic qualities?"

There is no relationship. Consciousness is seen as just another condition and or process. No, it has no intrinsic or inborn qualities.

" As you can only be aware of one part of the body at a time, how can you know that a group of bits with the label "body" actually exists?"

If this refers to the internal organs, to having directly seen them inside of what is called, "body" then no, have not directly viewed the organs within, however, it can be said from direct experience what is called blood, has been seen. Sliced a finger while cutting vegetables, the skin opened and a red liquid flowed from the finger.
Reading anatomy books for a class, and watching medical videos is how the bits, (organs) were seen. This is how it became known they exist.

"Oh, am i being dismissed?"

No, there is no one being dismissed, and no one who is dismissing.

love,
BF

Good evening BF

If this refers to the internal organs,

Yes, the internals as well as every part that is not being currently experienced.
We only have thoughts about those bits.
"Body", is a useful concept, but nevertheless a concept. A pretty good story, that has lots of unknowns.
From the perspective of the (concept of) organism, what is there, besides sensation that can be known ?

Would you say that you experience a sense of 'separateness' or 'oneness'.. ?

Feels like mission completed. :-)

Oh, i think that you were finished before coming here. ..but it doesn't hurt to dig a little.
i like the idea of 'going deeper'. (that is why i guide)

love

vince

Good evening BF

If this refers to the internal organs,

Yes, the internals as well as every part that is not being currently experienced.
We only have thoughts about those bits.
"Body", is a useful concept, but nevertheless a concept. A pretty good story, that has lots of unknowns.
From the perspective of the (concept of) organism, what is there, besides sensation that can be known ?

Good afternoon, Vince, when you write.... "can be known" does this refer to..... that which can be known by direct experience? If so, then besides sensations, awareness of thoughts coming and going can be known.

Would you say that you experience a sense of 'separateness' or 'oneness'.. ?

A sense of "oneness". Organism, which is dependent upon all its "bits" and processes. Are any sensations separate from the "organism"? Does sensation (s) arise within the organism or outside of the organism? Is it a separate "entity"? Wouldn't you concur, that thoughts arise and can be known, directly experienced in the mind of the "organism?"

Feels like mission completed. :-)

Oh, i think that you were finished before coming here. ..but it doesn't hurt to dig a little.
i like the idea of 'going deeper'. (that is why i guide)

Agree, digging deeper, and a little further doesn't hurt. It can be beneficial.

love,
BF