Requesting a guide to help finish it off

[Azov]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

Tried many different spiritual methods, also done some direct pointing, the last not as much as I'd like to. I really feel it's something which complements meditation (which I do) extremely well. Heard about Liberation Unleashed from several sources, and from what I've seen I find the community and the activities going on here amazing. I hope to be guided to realise the truth of the self on a deeper level.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

Even though I'm diligent about meditating, and thoughts are much much rarer than they used to be, I feel there is still a solid amount of "self" that I "believe" is there - even though I can with my conscious thoughts accept that there is no self, spontaneous thinking habitually rotate around that concept. My wish is to, by doing proper investigation, and thoroughly answer appropriate questions, exterminate the silent/hidden belief that there is a "self" inside of me.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

Mostly meditating. I've been meditating for many years, more and more intensively. Done 5 or so long retreats. Now up to 2h per day. I'd be happy to dedicate these hours to direct inquiry for some time. I am very happy about my meditation and am not so desperate or concerned about "making it" as I once was; there is more curiosity and dedicated, relaxed effort to deepen my realisation of "true self", the true nature of reality, etc etc.
Did "Finders Course" last year, a 4-month intensive 2-3 hours /day of trying out different spiritual methods.

I work as a clinical psychologist, and I find the spiritual perspective deeply enrich my practice. Learning about the mind, human nature and consciousness are all passions I have, as well as helping others get along better with themselves and in the world.

I think I'll thoroughly enjoy this inquirious process and look forward to it a lot.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 8

[asmaha]

Hi Azov and welcome to Liberation Unleashed,

My name is Jonas and I’d be glad to be your guide. Would you like me to call you Azov or another name?

Before we start here are some basic guidelines that are beneficial to the process:
- This investigation is about your direct experience. Report from that. Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
- Try to post at least once a day, even if it is just to say you need more time, for momentum is important.
- Please put aside all spiritual books, videos and websites for the duration of this inquiry. It's fine to continue your meditation practice.
- Be completely honest in your replies.
Technical:
Please learn how to use the Quote function. It makes the reading much easier.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Are you okay with everything?

Then here are my first questions:
What are you expecting seeing through the illusion of self will be like?
How will it feel?

I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Kind regards, Jonas

[Azov]

Hello Jonas! I'm happy to see you reply :) Looking forward to this process and will do my best to answer as truthfully and directly as I can. You can call me Malte as that is my real name.

I'll go ahead and try and answer your first questions.

What are you expecting seeing through the illusion of self will be like?
How will it feel?

The words which come to mind are "open", "unburdened", "free". "Open" stands out. I'm expecting it to feel freer inside consciousness in the way that I'll be able to take a wider perspective on things going on in there, gaining some distance from thoughts and mental activities going on, creating more "space" around those activities.

Also, there is the feeling of relaxation, of not being hurried or in as much of a rush to "get somewhere", being able to internally and mentally "sit back" and relax from the stress that often can companion me, even when there is no objective stress. Being able to relax from my "goals" and see them as well from a distance, being able to see how the fit into a larger coherent whole of things.

Being able to relax that many things will take care of themselves.

"Empty" is another word that comes to mind. I imagine certain areas of my psyche becoming more empty; in particular, the thinking mind. Making space for a grander view of things.

Well, I think that sums up the lions part of it. If you want, I'd be happy to elaborate on it.

[asmaha]

Hi Malte,
Thanks for your answer.
It is good to be aware of your expectations, because they can get in the way of this process. All we are looking for here is the simple, clear, experiential recognition that there is no self. This may or may not be accompanied by the feelings you describe. It is different for everybody. Expecting it to feel a certain way may hinder the seeing.
Though your expectations seem not unreasonable, I suggest that you drop all of them for the time being and to just be open to however this unfolds. Can you do that?

When you read the following, pay attention to your reactions, especially to sensations arising in the body, feelings and also to thoughts that might come up.
There is no I, no self, nobody who is doing anything. There is nobody acting, creating or controlling. The seat behind the steering wheel is empty.

Best,
Jonas

[Azov]

Though your expectations seem not unreasonable, I suggest that you drop all of them for the time being and to just be open to however this unfolds. Can you do that?

Yes, I can, with a slight frustration; but it feels quite fine, too. I'm interested in the explorative process and feel dedicated to do it even if outcomes is not what I would wish for. I can easily let go of outcome expectations.

When you read the following, pay attention to your reactions, especially to sensations arising in the body, feelings and also to thoughts that might come up.
There is no I, no self, nobody who is doing anything. There is nobody acting, creating or controlling. The seat behind the steering wheel is empty.

Reading it I feel naturally inclined to agree. The part that stands out for me however is "nobody controlling" - some sort of resistance arise inside - some part of me still feels, and wants to feel, like it's in control. Also, "The seat behind the steering wheel is empty" - my reaction is both that I feel a desire to "get" (in a greedy way) to that intuitive sense of that being true - as well as a slight frustration and/or resignation that I haven't arrived at that intuitive sense yet - and that it feels somewhat hard to get to that sense. I try to find "emptyness" inside me - but it seems the seat is taken - once again we're back to the sense of "the controller" - that's the one that sits there.

I can identify a definitive sense/desire/urge inside that WANTS to be in control of things - which want's power, and which wants things to go it's/my way. There also goes a creative lust with that sense of control/power - "I" want to be able to direct the turn of events and also want to take pleasure in doing so. There's a satisfaction component to it.

[asmaha]

Yes, I can, with a slight frustration; but it feels quite fine, too. I'm interested in the explorative process and feel dedicated to do it even if outcomes is not what I would wish for. I can easily let go of outcome expectations.

Great!

it seems the seat is taken - once again we're back to the sense of "the controller" - that's the one that sits there.

It may seem that the seat is taken (i.e. thought may say so) but is it really taken?
What can you control? Please describe how this controlling works in your experience.
And what is “the controller” in your direct experience? How does he look, where is he located?

[Azov]

It may seem that the seat is taken (i.e. thought may say so) but is it really taken?
What can you control? Please describe how this controlling works in your experience.

*sigh*. This is a tough question! There is a though that I can "control things". My physical actions, for example. Yet, paying attention to the movement of my hands for example, I notice that the movements spontaneously arise. The controlling also works by new, deliberate thoughts interrupting/stopping a previous chain of thoughts. Investigating it, I find that these interrupting/stopping kind of thoughts arise spontaneously too in the sense that "I" neither choose nor control which ones should arise. Shit. So, what can I control, is the question?

The more it's thought about, the more realisation there is about no actual control being exercised - at least not by any "Me" or conscious "I". There is still controlling inside, in the sense that controlling is happening - controlling thoughts are interfering with other thoughts, emotions are trying to replace existing, current emotions, and so on. Actions are being intiatied, stopped, modified, and controlled. But to be completely honest, there is no "controlling" behind the "controlling", so to speak. Yeah, the controlling works like that, one part of the internal, of the mind, one part of what's making up the totality of mind, "interferes" with and/or replaces thoughts, stimuli and/or actions which were "there" just before.

There is a sense that "I" can control intentions, but investigating it, "I" discover the intentions aren't chosen at all - they arise spontaneously, from nowhere. The origin is inaccessible to consciousness.

The sense as the investigation progresses is that the sense of "I" shrinks. The "thing" called I, inside, seems to disappear. Every time that thought arises, there is also a tiny jerk of fear - fear of "getting it" and what might happen then - which I totally believe is directly associated to a powerful psychedelic experience many years back in which there was also great fear of losing all control at the same time as the moment had the same kind of potential for mental liberation.

Well, your question remain unanswered. What can "I" control? There is nothing that "I" can control - at least it doesn't seem like the "I" sense can decide and/or control anything inside the mind. There is a slight suspicion that it (the "I") might direct mental activity, but in some hidden, subconscious way. I don't think that suspicion holds up to scrutiny; it feels like an attempt at grasping anything that is in favour of a controlling "I".

It's interesting - the more the notion of an "I" controlling things vanishes, the more the feeling of being free arises. It's pleasant at the same time as it's nervous.

I'm very tired today due to lack of sleep and I'm not clear in my thoughts while investigating, so I'll continue answering this question later today, or tomorrow. If you have anything to add, please do, otherwise I'll just continue where I left off.

And what is “the controller” in your direct experience? How does he look, where is he located?

(Had some time to answer this one a bit, too. Will continue with this question aswell.): It actually feels located to the front and top right of my inner "space". But there is no "thing" - there is only a specific sense, a sort of experience, of a sense of controlling. It's hard to describe (and perceive) fully or exactly.

Thank you so far Jonas and I want to say I feel really good about the direction this is heading. I thank you for your questions. From your post count it seems you might not have done so many guidings before, but I must say it feels really good with you. The questions are really to the point. It feels great.

[Azov]

It may seem that the seat is taken (i.e. thought may say so) but is it really taken?
What can you control? Please describe how this controlling works in your experience.

Well, actually, I can’t come up with anything that “I” control. Everything just shows up in awareness. My sense of “I” can’t control anything, at all. I can’t control anything, at all. That’s my direct experience. Everything just arises. The sense of controlling is also greatly overstated internally inside: there’s a thought or belief that it can control much more than it actually can. There is very little room for intention and control inside. Many magnitudes more content is just being “served up” and me, my preferences, my emotions, my states, my actions, thoughts, so enormlously much of this content is just “served up”; that’s what I’m experiencing when trying to pin down the controller/the controlling. This might be beside the point, but it sure is a stimulating finding. Relieving. Actions and intentions just come up rom inside; control is very little, short-lived and brief. In one way it’s like a tiny disturbance in the internal mass of everything, on the other hand, distinct, clear, consistent intentions sure can shape my mind in powerful ways; in the long-term. I apologize for this side-track, but I felt it was important for me!

Now back to our main point, again.

I can’t find anything that “I” truly can control, still, there’s doubt or reluctance to fully let go of the idea that I am in control. Perhaps there is something that I’ve missed?

When my sense of being able to control things lessens, there’s a sense of ownedship becoming more predominant, that this is “my mind” or “my thoughts” and “my experiences”. That I own it.

And what is “the controller” in your direct experience? How does he look, where is he located?

Well, “he” doesn’t look like anything, just a general sense inside my mind, located as said yesterday in upper front right space of the mind. Doesn’t look like anything in particular, doesn’t have an appearance; just exist as a certain familiarity of the intentions/thoughts/emotions that part of the mind produces.

[Azov]

To clarify: "Perhaps there is something that I've missed?" wasn't meant as an actual question, it was a description of the doubt inside me's voice.

[asmaha]

There is a though that I can "control things". My physical actions, for example. Yet, paying attention to the movement of my hands for example, I notice that the movements spontaneously arise. The controlling also works by new, deliberate thoughts interrupting/stopping a previous chain of thoughts. Investigating it, I find that these interrupting/stopping kind of thoughts arise spontaneously too in the sense that "I" neither choose nor control which ones should arise.

Great observation!

Actions are being intiatied, stopped, modified, and controlled. But to be completely honest, there is no "controlling" behind the "controlling", so to speak.

Good!

There is a sense that "I" can control intentions, but investigating it, "I" discover the intentions aren't chosen at all - they arise spontaneously, from nowhere. The origin is inaccessible to consciousness.

Yes!

Well, actually, I can’t come up with anything that “I” control. Everything just shows up in awareness. My sense of “I” can’t control anything, at all. I can’t control anything, at all. That’s my direct experience. Everything just arises.

Very clear!
But then again you state that

Actions and intentions just come up rom inside; control is very little, short-lived and brief.

and

There is very little room for intention and control inside. Many magnitudes more content is just being “served up” and me, my preferences, my emotions, my states, my actions, thoughts, so enormlously much of this content is just “served up”

- So is there any control at all about what contents arise in consciousness, or not? Are there some things that "you" create and others that are "served up"? If so, which are those under your control?
Let's focus on thought first. Can you in your experience in any way control thoughts?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are thoughts coming from?
Where are they going?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?

The sense as the investigation progresses is that the sense of "I" shrinks. The "thing" called I, inside, seems to disappear. Every time that thought arises, there is also a tiny jerk of fear - fear of "getting it" and what might happen then - which I totally believe is directly associated to a powerful psychedelic experience many years back in which there was also great fear of losing all control at the same time as the moment had the same kind of potential for mental liberation.

The “thing” called “I” doesn’t exist in the first place – so there is no need to fear that “you” could disappear. Nothing gets lost when you see through the illusion, except for a completely unnecessary belief.
It is very common though that this kind of fear arises during this process, I can definitely relate to it. When it comes up, let it be there. Bring it closer, examine it, feel the raw sensation in the body - there is never a problem with the raw sensation. Consider the fear to be a friend, it wants to protect you. But then… can you find this “you” that needs protection?

There is nothing that "I" can control - at least it doesn't seem like the "I" sense can decide and/or control anything inside the mind. There is a slight suspicion that it (the "I") might direct mental activity, but in some hidden, subconscious way. I don't think that suspicion holds up to scrutiny; it feels like an attempt at grasping anything that is in favour of a controlling "I".

Scrutinize this suspicion! That means: Test it against your direct experience. What is this “I” that supposedly could control something in a hidden way? What is it in reality, here and now, when you look for it? What is it "made of in your direct experience?

Thank you so far Jonas and I want to say I feel really good about the direction this is heading. I thank you for your questions. From your post count it seems you might not have done so many guidings before, but I must say it feels really good with you. The questions are really to the point. It feels great.

It's my pleasure, really :-)

[Azov]

Wow, thanks for that reply, look forward to sit down with it :)

A quick question - are these http://liberationunleashed.com/audio/ off limits for this period?

[asmaha]

A quick question - are these http://liberationunleashed.com/audio/ off limits for this period?

No, they are not necessarily off-limits. But the best thing you can do - better than listening to stuff or reading - is to just observe your everyday experience, take this inquiry with you into your everyday life. Just keep looking...

[Azov]

Alright, thanks - I'll try to focus on experiencing over listening, then.

With regards to your questions.... :

So is there any control at all about what contents arise in consciousness, or not? Are there some things that "you" create and others that are "served up"? If so, which are those under your control?

- Some feel more “served up” than others, which feel more constructed. There is the sense that I’m constructing them, yes, writing this, I wonder ‘from what?’. Or, rather, it’s a sense that they’re constructed, but actually, it’s not a sense of having constructed them, no. It’s just that they’re sensed differently, two types. It’s a bit creepy investigating it, actually. Those under my control would be.. *sigh* - can’t think of any! I do notice there’s a very strong inclination to identify with the willpower/controlling part of the mind. But your question is whether “I” create, and under “my” control. *sigh*!! These questions are hard. I notice big reluctance admitting that I can’t control or decide any of my thoughts. There’s great attachment to the idea of being in control of atleast some, no matter how tiny part of my inner experience.

Let's focus on thought first.
Can you in your experience in any way control thoughts?

- Yes, I sense that I can chose thoughts. That I can push certain thoughts away. That I can allow some thoughts. I can choose to think of a car, of my wife, of my brother, of the teacup in front of me. Of a friend.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I didn’t do anything to decide which thoughts to appear. Despite the sense that I picked them; I didn’t. They were never ‘chosen’ among other thoughts, or they were not ‘thought to be thought about’ so to speak. I never did choose any of my thoughts.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

A part of me wants to say yes, but I know this is not true. I have never experienced a moment where I chose between 2 or more different thoughts. Another thought may appear after an initial one, but “I” can never chose which the new thought will be.

That is interesting, as I really believed that I could decide future thoughts.

Where are thoughts coming from?

From ‘the inside’, from a speculated brain, but all I really discover is ‘void’ if words were to describe. Emptyness; not even that. They appear, that’s all I can ever know. “I” can never know where thoughts come from.

Where are they going?

Lol - that’s funny. Who knows? The thoughts that have appeared seems to be related to thoughts appearing in the future; or that’s what “memory” says. The guess is that they go back inside various brain areas and affects them in a way which affects future sense input and thoughts - but I can never know this. “I” can never achieve direct insight of this. I can never know ‘where’ they are going - or decide whether ‘going’ is something that’s even relevant to thoughts. They appear; they disappear, that’s all I can ever achieve direct experience of, with regards to thoughts. Nothing else can be known.

Can you predict your next thought?

- no, that’s impossible for me.

Can you push away any thought?

- Well, they can be pushed away, but it’s not done by any ‘me’. They’re just pushed away; when that’s what happens to them.




Alright, that's how far I got today. Will go ahead tomorrow and spend more time on this conversation. Will also deal with the other question you had but I didn't tackle today:

Scrutinize this suspicion! That means: Test it against your direct experience. What is this “I” that supposedly could control something in a hidden way? What is it in reality, here and now, when you look for it? What is it "made of in your direct experience?

And thanks for your response about fear: made me feel more at ease with things.

Write to you later!

[asmaha]

Alright, I'll respond to you in detail tomorrow when you've also tackled the other question. Best, J

[Azov]

Ok, let's continue:

So is there any control at all about what contents arise in consciousness, or not? Are there some things that "you" create and others that are "served up"? If so, which are those under your control?

I can’t actually control anything that shows up in my conscioussness. There is a sense that the output (intentions) can be decided, but as we have already concluded, there is no deciding. Things can be controlled for sure, internally, or interfered with atleast, but I can’t detect any interaction with consciousness. Consciousness is just the place where it all takes place. There’s no information going in and out of awareness. Awareness doesn’t have any content or information that is separate from sensations. It doesn’t interact with thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations, actions. The sense of “I” doesn’t control or create anything.

Scrutinize this suspicion! That means: Test it against your direct experience. What is this “I” that supposedly could control something in a hidden way? What is it in reality, here and now, when you look for it? What is it "made of in your direct experience?

The “I” that can control things… it’s not made of anything, it’s an internal sense of “I”-ness, and it’s connected, or tied, to other internal things like thoughts, intentions and percieved actions. It’s tied to it, but it’s not sensed that it controls anything. The “I” sense is invisible. I can’t find that it’s made of anything. It's like a thought - it comes and goes. It flickers.