I'm ready.

[kreoon]

Hello there,
I first found this idea about 3 months ago in the other forum, and I tried to liberate myself using the posts/blogs there, but I just couldn't get honest with myself, and gave up after about 2 weeks. I've been meditating since last month, and I feel like I am ready to be honest now.
I still have issues with honesty, and I feel biased towards your views because I really want to be liberated. Could you help me by asking me questions that could really trigger self inquiry?
I really want to be liberated by the time I'm out of this thread.
Many thanks.

[Cam-RT]

Hello and welcome..

So is 'kreoon' your real given name? or may I ask for a name your comfortable with to make this a bit more of a 'human' conversation?...

Remember when I ask you questions or to "look", you need to be 100% honest and committed (with yourself) during this process to make progress, because in the end "this is for you". All I need from you is to try and express what you're finding back to me.

Meditating is fine, for clearing the mind, but I need to ask for now.... Is to put any and everything else that you've read or learned on the back burner until we've confirmed that your 'through the Gate'.

Since you've already tried self liberation, at any time did you examine the statement: "That there is no separate entity as "The Self" in real life at all?... when saying it to yourself and "feeling" how your body responds... What comes up after?....How does it make you feel?

[kreoon]

Thank you for replying. Let's do this!

My real name is Shivani.

To answer your question, when I say the statement I feel a knot in my body. It's very similar to a feeling I get when I'm knowingly lying to someone. Anither feeling I immediately got after reading it for about a second is a mix of intense excitement and fear.

[Cam-RT]

Good morning! Shivani:

Let's start at how thoughts process and how to use the body to help sense where to look for the illusive "self".

The mind is a labeling machine and labels thoughts as soon as experience happens:
Thoughts triggers feeling, feeling get labeled --->new trigger----> feeling gets more intense--->more labels turning into a viscous feed back loop...

Pick some thoughts (the more uncomfortable the better) and notice how the body responds, this always occurs when the "Self" is at the center.

Now when you practice this as you feel these feelings pop up bring the thought closer, focus on the thought, "look' through it what do you see?

[kreoon]

I did what you told me and I could really notice the mind creating feelings just the way you mention it. However, I could only notice this briefly, but there are 2 problems:
1) I haven't had too many unconfortable thoughts in about a year, so it was hard to find a couple of such situations,
2) and of those I used for the exercise, I think I focused too hard to make the feeling real, but too much focus actually made me insenetive to those feelings( as if I had no emotions)
I also tried to focus on the thought, but all I can see is the image in my mind and the feeling that goes with it.
Sorry for being such a pain, I just don't think I'm doing it right.

[Cam-RT]

Shivani:

The first thing I see, is in both your first post where you mentioned that you tried for two weeks and then "quit" and again, this morning attempting to contact another guide is "impatients"...This process cannot be 'rushed' "The Gate" presents itself when you have completed the process; for some it takes hours, for others... well, when they are thorough, and all has been seen.

I think I focused too hard to make the feeling real, but too much focus actually made me insenetive to those feelings( as if I had no emotions)

What we're attempting here is to establish the "Real Time" connection to the body when it reacts to the thought.
Like the 'reflex' that occurs when someone tries to 'slap' you. The body reacts and attempts to 'block' the other.

We need to get in touch with this response, and feel the body's reaction when these feelings arise.

The body doesn't lie. When it feels threatened it will respond...These thoughts are where "the self or I " resides.

When these feelings 'pop up' stop briefly, and focus on the thought...Look straight into it (with laser focus) what's behind it?

Practice this and tell me what it is you find...

[Cam-RT]

In addition to my last post...

Take a "look" at All these feelings... Anger, frustration, Impatients ;^) , sadness, irritability, depression...anything that's 'negative' in reaction, these are where we are going to work on.

Let me know how it go's....Take Care, Cam-RT

[kreoon]

Immediately after a thought comes up there's a feeling established in a random part of the body. That feeling then gets heightened by the mind labeling it, and this makes other thoughts come up, and it continues that way. The connection between thought and feeling is established automatically.
Looking at the thought shows it's just a still image to with I attached meaning on a reflexive level.

[Cam-RT]

Good morning Shivani :^)

Okay, now that your sensing these feelings and familiar with them when they hit, now we need to select one of the strongest ones and bring it up close, 'look' with 'laser focus', straight into it...what's behind this thought?

Tell me what it "is" you see....

[kreoon]

There is nothing behind the thought, it's just energy that changes into emotion.

[kreoon]

I've also noticed that when I'm about to fall asleep or wake up there are dozens of thoughts coming and going, but they don't stick or change into feeling because I'm not actively engaging them.

[kreoon]

Can you tell me how to observe thoughts in real life while the thoughts are forming? It's easy to reflect on them while relaxing, but in real life everything happens so fast that all I can observe are the feelings. There just seems to be no thought behind it. Just stimulus --> feeling.
p.s. sorry for multiple posts, there doesn't seem to be an edit button.

[Cam-RT]

Alright Shivani!! your doing great!

You hit the bulls eye!!!

There is nothing behind the thought

You've seen the truth...So in 'essence' what 'controls or drives' these thoughts?

Can you tell me how to observe thoughts in real life while the thoughts are forming?.

everything happens so fast that all I can observe are the feelings.

You answered your own question..."The body doesn't lie" this takes practice in "real time", when you get those feelings that create that "knot or tension, anxiousness, etc. pick up on these feelings the body 'Emits' ...Take a quick step back or "second look" look straight into the thought you just had or having, that's where the self resides...Behind these thoughts. See it for what it "is" then move on.

So Shivani,in your spare time, what we're going to do is start "cleaning house".(let's make this a game.) Think of your mind as an attic full of boxes... each one is a thought that needs to be opened and seen for what's inside...(you answered this one earlier...Nothing.) Remember use you body as a guide, if feeling's pop up dump it out, look at it, then move on. This is where you must be thorough. The self is cunning, it ducks and dodges to keep from being found out, in time you will start to feel those feelings subside.

I need you check with me and let me know how things are going, and tell me your progress and be honest cause the self will use the ego to trick you into thinking your done... We need to confirm your progress up to and thru 'The Gate'...

[kreoon]

Hey Cam,
I might not have been completely honest when I said that there is nothing behind the thoughts. I didn't actually 'see' it. I've been observing feelings for 2 whole days, and when I try to trace it back to a thought, well sometimes I can hear my own voice speaking, and sometimes there's a visual image of a past experience. When there's a visual image I can see that there's memory behind the thought.
Most of the time though, thought is really really hard to notice and when I try to trace back a feeling I can hardly observe any thought, let alone looking in it to see what's behind it.
I'm a bit frustrated, and when I get this thought "This is really frustrating ", all I notice is my voice saying it out loud in my mind and the feeling. WHILE the thought is happeing I cannot notice it, only after the feeling has arisen, but then I will already be too involved in the emotion to take a step back and notice.

[kreoon]

I looked, and there is really nothing behind the thoughts. There is no one controlling them, they just arise and go, or continue with other thoughts. No self is needed for any of this. The self is created in the thoughts by the mind.