The Gate

Let's flow... A sense of completion and grounding to try to bring the sense of oneness "back down to Earth".

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
A sense of completion and grounding to try to bring the sense of oneness "back down to Earth".
That's very generic and high level so let me take a step back. For as long as I can remember I have had visions of a previous life, of things to happen in the future and especially people in my life who were very soon not to be in my life and pass on. That sounds like a superpower but believe me, it's more like listening to an old ham radio and then slowly figuring out what is being said and only realizing (at first at least) what those messages meant when those events happened in life. Combine that with growing up in an open but very much scientific family I spent my life questioning these vision, then for a brief moment praying to Jesus (only for a year and never going to church or speaking to anyone) and then moving on and slowly accepting those visions were a part of my life.

(I initially wrote a bit about learning to accept these visions but cut it out because I don't want this to be about that. Suffice it to say I never talked to anyone about them until recently and then only to a small handful of people)

But fast forward to 2015 and a very curious thing happened. I was shown a number of things I needed to improve in my life and the "strength" of my visions increased 2-3 times. Then a number of synchronicities happened which led me to a week long meditation retreat, reading Gateless Gatecrashers (and seeing for the first time, in one split second, the illusion of self) and on the retreat feeling for a few minutes the complete sense of connection to everyone and all of life.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Not much really, I've never read a religious text and the closest I came to Buddhism is reading the first 2 chapters on a book about the Dali Lama and also hearing through friends who had read up about Buddhism. I decided from what I'd heard that Buddhism was a better alternative to organised religion.
I did watch a documentary about the Buddha once recently where things started to make sense with my own life.

I have "The monk who sold his Ferrari" on my shelf but haven't read it yet.

Officially I'm Catholic and have been in a church on a number of occasions and listened to the chaplin at school. But I've never pursued that other than watching documentaries on trying to prove whether or not certain events in the bible are scientifically verifiable.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
A more grounded (using words) approach to bringing back the (profound and undescribable) sense of unity with everything that I've held with me since the retreat and integrating that with the "knowledge" of no-self and the emptiness that it leaves behind when focusing only on no-self without unity to everything.

How did you find the forum?:
Barnaby - who I request to be my guide - http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=4&t=3764 - thanks :)

Thank you Cryptic, it's wonderful to find you here.
Welcome to LU, and this form of enquiry.

From our conversations, and from what you've just written, you've already seen through the illusion of the separate self.

Please say more about that, specifically what has changed in your life since seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Have a good look, and please be as specific as possible.

Well it's subtle but touches every aspect of life. Instead of describing the sensation let "me" describe some aspects of how it's affected life so far. Also for sake of easy writing "I'll" use the pronoun I but it somehow feels uncomfortable now.

* I no longer judge others based on their looks, what they "should" be doing or whether they fit in or not
* I don't consider that pushing others to "do the right thing" is, in fact, the optimal thing to do. Rather I now consider myself supporting others if they choose to ask for help.
* I am no longer (as) attached to outcome. If something feels right, I feel more at ease going with it rather than having to "control" ever aspect of everything.
* Control in general (following on from above). Wow, this is a big one. It's changed into something more akin to a dance. Instead of planning and executing "I've" started feeling and doing just THAT next step as well as I can. I dance to the music but "my" moves are "my" own ;)
* Love. Wow this is perhaps the biggest one. "I" now well and truly love like never before. Instead of "understanding" that others have faults and should be loved regardless I now feel it instead. And that's wonderful if at times overwhelming.

To go off topic a little the "lack" of self does leave a type of hole and emptiness which for a brief moment was filled when at the retreat I felt the sense of onness and unity. But since then there's a been a little adjustment period. So far it seems to be settling into an absence of self with a knowing of onness even if it can't, at every moment, be directly experienced as it was at the retreat. But something that I sense will be settling for a little while yet.

Also there are moments of course when the ego slips in, particularly when returning to old habits like work and emails, but it seems to slip away a LOT more easily now when returning to quiet awareness and as this paragraph is being written. "I" have made peace with that and "I" absolutely love and revel in the comfort of the ego when it happens, knowing that the illusion is there to make it easier to make sense of living.

I found reading what you wrote remarkable. Truly insightful. And so eloquently put.
Thank you Cryptic. To me to looks like you have indeed seen through the illusion of the separate self.

Such a remarkable journey, and beautiful how it happened for you on the plane while coming to the retreat, then experiencing everything that happened there.

To go off topic a little the "lack" of self does leave a type of hole and emptiness which for a brief moment was filled when at the retreat I felt the sense of onness and unity. But since then there's a been a little adjustment period. So far it seems to be settling into an absence of self with a knowing of onness even if it can't, at every moment, be directly experienced as it was at the retreat. But something that I sense will be settling for a little while yet.

It is common for there to be a sense of sadness, even perhaps grief for the loss of what was never there.
I agree about the adjustment period. People talk of this. The brain seems to be re-adjusting to a new outlook, just like you're talking about. This provides a wonderful opportunity to examine the shifting mental landscape. This forum provides a great place for you to share more about what you're discovering here.
Keep giving yourself the space and time to feel, and note what is coming up, and share what you find.

Also there are moments of course when the ego slips in, particularly when returning to old habits like work and emails, but it seems to slip away a LOT more easily now when returning to quiet awareness and as this paragraph is being written. "I" have made peace with that and "I" absolutely love and revel in the comfort of the ego when it happens, knowing that the illusion is there to make it easier to make sense of living.

This is so beautifully put. I would say, keep living just like this, with a welcoming heart.
I see the ego/identity/self just as you have explained. No need to be harsh or push it away, it keeps on surfacing just as you say. What you have described is an excellent practise.

With looking into all of your experience, I have 6 questions that I'd love you to answer.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

However you want to answer these is up to you.
You can post answers all at once, or separately over some days.
There is no rush, it's up to you to fully examine this new world you find yourself in.

Hi Barnaby,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

In terms of the self from every day "regular" life. No. That's very clear and unobtrusive.

At a greater sense there is awareness. Awareness as part of the whole but a separate perspective maybe? Either way I don't think the question needs to be answered at that level, ultimately after the self is gone there is awareness and thoughts and that's what's important.



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Looking at this for myself it was obvious that there is awareness when born, when a baby and when a toddler. That awareness is consistent. But the awareness is there before a sense of self with all the "should's", "must's" and "am's" was. So the self is a manifestation of logic and thought.

Ultimately "I" see the self as a Summary page on Google Analytics, or a Stats screen from a character in a Computer Game. The self keeps track of all the stats associated with this body for quick reference when making decisions. If a decision comes along, I refer to the "self" and see what it has done before or in what box it's put itself into and act accordingly. Simple, comfortable, fast ... no thinking or feeling into each unique situation required.

And because this referencing the "self" happens so often it leads to a strong 1 to 1 association with those stats and so the summary becomes "self" which becomes I, me, my.

Overall, I see the "self" as an efficient way of making decisions and interacting in the world. It's not at all the best way but it's quick and easy and does the job.

Concrete examples, well there are many. "I am an entrepreneur", "I take care of my mother", "I want to make money to be free", "I protect people who are treated unfairly", "I don't do drugs", "People who get drunk are bad", "I have self control", "I don't drink" on and on and on. It's easy to refer to those when a situation comes along and just go with them. "Do you want a job?" ... "No I'm an entrepreneur". "Do you want a drink" ... "No I don't drink" (more on that below). But without the "self" dictating these things there is no way of knowing what "I'll" do in the future other than having an idea of outcomes. Running through a dinner party naked would likely lead to many shocked dinner guests and a lack of conversation with those guests afterwards for example, but it's on the table however unlikely, and who knows it might inspire others to be more free :).


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Well it feels a lot less constrained. I know from personal experience that seeing someone live their higher TRUTH unconstrained by restrictions of "self" inspired me to do the same. But when I didn't follow through afterwards it was almost always because those actions were too inconsistent with my"self".

Now there are only decisions. Moment to moment. And consequences. But "I" can make the best decision every moment feeling LESS concerned with whether those decisions are consistent with my"self" or even "what does that say about me?"

One big and concrete example is that my old self said "I don't drink". I even felt very proud of that fact. And I also felt that others who couldn't help themselves and got drunk were bad or inferior because they lacked self control. Now "I" no longer feel the sense of holding onto that. If the situation arises "I" may drink alcohol. But the consequences of that are "I" might get sick if "I" drink too much (or only just a little bit for my body) and so "I" will likely decide not to drink or at least not drink too much. But "I" don't exactly know how "I'll" react in such a situation because it'll depend on that situation and not some STATUS board that says "I am now free so I will drink and let loose" or "I will absolutely not drink". Just decisions with consequences. And sometimes unintended consequences and sometimes unknown consequences! But decision in the moments as they happen.

Over the last few days "I've" really been connecting more with people, not judging, but instead trying to understand as much or as little in every interaction with them and loving the part of them that makes them shine and happy. It's actually lead to a lot more conversations with random strangers (however brief) and particularly with people at checkouts.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was actually curiosity to begin with when I heard about there idea of there being no "self". I approached is skeptically but open mindedly. At first it seemed wrong to say "there is no self" when there were very clearly thoughts identifying themselves as the "self" and were performing a useful action. But reading "Gateless Gatecrashers" and pausing to follow the same thoughts with my situation led me to more and more realize that "yes the thoughts are useful, but only in dramatically simplifying decision making" (and not necessarily in making the best decisions just making it quicker). But then there was no THING associated with those thoughts. There is just thinking. And then it clicked. There is no self. There are only thoughts and awareness of those thoughts.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

These are slippery questions my friend so you may find some slippery answers below :)

"I" have a greater appreciation for awareness. "I" am awareness with a toolset of thoughts that can make decisions in an environment. And "I" am free to make the decisions that feel best moment to moment unconstrained by who "I am" and "What I should do".

Free will? Who knows. Does it matter? "I" feel that I can make decisions and the more "I" feel empowered to make any decision regardless of how it feels to the "self" the better.

And the self still chimes in stronger and stronger depending on the scale of the decision and how deeply ingrained it was so there are things that can be improved.

Overall I don't think thinking about free will is useful. Is there free will? If yes then great. Go forth as unconstrained as possible do what is best in every moment. If not? Then what? Despair? Ultimately we're here, we hear, we see and sense in all other ways and we can make decisions. Let's do that the best way we can.

Decision? Not sure how you want me to answer this one. Moment to moment there are a scale of options open. "I" choose one of those options and go on. "I" could keep writing or stop to make dinner. "I" could get annoyed by having to defined the self evident aspect of decision or "I" could recognize that the "self" has labeled that as bad and "I" could decide to drop that train of thought and go on writing. Options, options, options every moment. Which will "you" choose .... ?!

Intention. Well this is just seeing a desired outcome. Perhaps we plan it step by step, perhaps we plan only the first step. Ultimately it's the outcome we invision for ourselves which we hope will happen after a number of actions which all require decisions. Before the retreat I Indended to do a number of things, large on the list was become financially independent so I could help my mother, family and never be forced to work on things I didn't enjoy any more. Now, after the retreat and in the absence of "self" ... or rather in the lessness of "self" ... "I" intend to head towards those things only because there is nothing else that would make a better intention to head towards. But if it does come up then "I" will head towards that instead. Intention has become a lot more fluid rather than rigid. And it's coupled a lot with control.

Control ... well this comes in a spectrum ... but "I'll" speak to the control as it related to financial freedom. For me this was all about being able to control every aspect of becoming financially free, particularly HOW. That meant I worked on projects long after it was obvious they would fail and it meant that I never worked on projects that didn't have an expected outcome. But sticking to intention and relinquishing "control" (the how of it) meant that I have since been working more and more on things that (in hindsight) have gotten me closer to my intention by learning and experience and building relationships but not by the individual projects themselves. Intention is important and planning the steps is important so I take action to building a project, but trying to control the "how" of which project will succeed or even just make money limited the actions and experiences and ultimately stopped me progressing.

Choice, just to round this out is a play on words with decision. Unless you mean a constraining on the decisions we can make. Ultimately decisions can be made from an infinite palette every moment and the CHOICE reduces if there are limiting factors like the "self" at work. If there are limiting factors then how about we work at breaking those limiting factors? Would that lead to a better state of being? "I" answer that for myself as yes. But that's my decision.


6) Anything to add?

I could write a lot about these topics but ultimately "I" think a lot of the above points were unnecessary and distracting if the aim was for me resolve / settle / integrate the sense of "self" and "selflessness". Don't get me wrong, a profound change has happened, but that change is all around relinquishing control and suddenly seeing a beautiful array of choices open up, like witnessing a blooming of a vast field of flowers, and the feeling of exquisite beauty, living moment to moment making decisions and not knowing ahead of time what the best decision would be. There are still intentions. But where before those intentions were a Laminated Flowchart of Concrete Steps there is now a blank wall with sticky notes, that can move and change.

"I" know too that you like concrete examples but I'm writing from the heart so I'll keep going.

The other profound change is that of opening up my heart more as I've said before. The words beauty and love flow naturally now. They're no longer unconstrained. I remember being told that when I talked it felt like a "wooden man" was talking. And that's exactly how I felt inside before. Empty. Shut off. But very very analytical. Not anymore. Now I feel. I feel everything. The beauty in every act. The love in hateful things. It's hard to feel that especially but it is there nonetheless. Feeling. And I no longer need to think about writing these words, they just come, because I'm feeling them and my mind knows the words to fill in.

That's why I feel the above points were unnecessary. They were heady and unfeeling. And in writing this last piece I think I've *clicked*. It's not about thinking ... it's about feeling, deeply feeling into each and every situation and then acting on that feeling strongly with the head to make decisions come to life. That's how to flow in life. And that's what it's all about.

Thank you Barnaby! I wasn't expecting that.

Feel free to ask me any more questions you feel necessary. But suddenly I feel ... complete.

I'd like us to dive deeper into some of your answers.

You reference back to an "I" that is taking action and that is make decisions.
You said that you are 'awareness' that can and is making decisions.

ultimately after the self is gone there is awareness and thoughts and that's what's important

In question 3 you say:

"Now there are only decisions. Moment to moment. And consequences. But "I" can make the best decision every moment feeling LESS concerned with whether those decisions are consistent with my"self" or even "what does that say about me?"

In question 4 you refer to making decisions and that you are 'awareness' that can and is making decisions.

Your language is still hinting at a 'self', even through the use of inverted comma's around the "I".

Please look again, and from a completely personal and direct experience, visceral experience of this moment, please answer:

1. Who or what is making decisions?
2. Where is the separate self that is making decisions?
3. And what do you mean by 'awareness'?
4. What is the "I" that is taking action?
5. Is there any separate self who is doing, deciding, controlling and thinking anything at all?

What arises when you look, what feelings show up?
Feel into this, and share what you.

"Free will? Who knows. Does it matter? "I" feel that I can make decisions and the more "I" feel empowered to make any decision regardless of how it feels to the "self" the better."

You are showing a clarity of one who sits in the position of no self - however, the intellectualizing here does not demonstrate this clarity clearly enough.

Please look deeper at how choice happens and share what you see about this.