The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I have been guided before - I think roughly 1.5 - 2 years ago, but I dont think I actually got it.
Id like another shot at seeing please.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Going through the exercises on the headless way.org
Reading Eckhart Tolle.

Investigating internet articles.

And of course, I have been guided once before on Liberation Unleashed.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
Someone will give me exercises that will, hopefully lead me to see the truth once and before. I expect there will be a sort of shift in perception.

hi Lynny
I'm Sarah and I'd be happy to speak with you.
What do you mean by not getting it before?
Looking forward to working with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah

I appreciate your guidance and am happy to meet you.

I will be as honest as I can, as I do not want to waste your time.

You asked: 'What do you mean by not getting it before'?

I understand intellectually that the "I" has been moulded into being by my thoughts, perceptions, emotions, feelings etc. That inherently, there is no 'I'. This, apparently should bring a sense of relief, which I did not get and life continues as painfully as it always has. I gather this is because there was never an I in the first place, so what could possibly change? So, I wonder, have I missed something? Or is the discovery of no "I" just the beginning of knowing who you are (or are not)and does not necessarily mean that you will have an "huge awakening"? I still identify strongly with the I, and knowing the absence of the 'i' hasn't made a hoot of difference to the way I perceive life.

So I am here to see if I did miss something, if not, I am very sorry to waste your time.

Sikara

Hi Sikara
Please do not think you are wasting my time. Im happy to help. I do not know where you got to in terms of the last time you were guiding - so I may repeat things in order to find out where you got to. I hope that is ok. But from your perspective now can we start with the first set of questions that take it from there. How does that sound?

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else?

Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Can you tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be resides? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx

But from your perspective now can we start with the first set of questions that take it from there. How does that sound?

Sounds excellent.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

Via my thoughts, especially my negative emotions, my perceptions, beliefs . When I am responsible for my sons' wellbeing, when I express my opinions on a given topic, when I make a decision to do this or that.

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience

I see the "I" as sitting in the centre of experience. In my heart area.

is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent,

It feels fixed and permanent.

is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate

It is inside the body, the I does change - forms new beliefs, ideas, etc - it does feel separate.

does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience

When I am going through emotional pain, which is almost always, it seems so much more real , alive and solid. Once, when contemplating the no "I", I cried, as I felt saddened that, in reality, there is no one there. The "I" was identified with heavily then. At other times, when I am deep into my macramé, or perhaps during a meditation session, the I seems to disappear. So at times it is extremely obvious, others, not so obvious.

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality,

Intellectually, I know that the "I" is made up of all of the above. Because, even though I feel as though there is an I, when I search within, it is know-where. Even in my direct experience, I can see that the I is just thoughts , feelings, emotions etc.

does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else?

I feel as though it does, yes. Nothing else.

Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

I have lost the sense of I when I am deep in my macramé work, or whilst watching a movie, for example. I snap out of it and think, where was I? There was no I around . There was absolutely nothing.

Can you tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be resides? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

This is confusing for me as, I have seen that there is no I intellectually, yet my mind persists in identifying with it. I do not know why this is happening. But yes. for me, the I lives around the heart area. When I look, though, its not there or anywhere.

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

Only thoughts make it seem as though something can exits outside the present moment. I will do this in the future, I did this in the past, etc. But it seems all there is is now.

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?

I get mixed up with this question. By direct experience, you mean thoughts, emotions, perceptions, what is seen, touch taste, etc. I thought the world was permanent, the sky etc. I often take things quite literally, so bare with me.

Morning Sikara

Intellectually, I know that the "I" is made up of all of the above. Because, even though I feel as though there is an I, when I search within, it is know-where. Even in my direct experience, I can see that the I is just thoughts , feelings, emotions etc.

Have a look right at this ‘feeling of ‘I’. Pick it apart. What is it made up of?

I feel as though it does, yes.

Can you give me an example of some decision that is made regularly for us to look at? And can you also give me an example of something you control.

I have lost the sense of I when I am deep in my macramé work, or whilst watching a movie, for example. I snap out of it and think, where was I? There was no I around . There was absolutely nothing.

What notices ‘you’ are not there? And how does this feel?

This is confusing for me as, I have seen that there is no I intellectually, yet my mind persists in identifying with it. I do not know why this is happening.

Did you expect it not to?

Only thoughts make it seem as though something can exits outside the present moment. I will do this in the future, I did this in the past, etc. But it seems all there is is now.

Have a little look at this please and give me a rough percentage of how often thoughts are either in the future or in the past.

I get mixed up with this question. By direct experience, you mean thoughts, emotions, perceptions, what is seen, touch taste, etc. I thought the world was permanent, the sky etc. I often take things quite literally, so bare with me.

Direct Experience is what is noticed, here and now and for the purposes of investigation we split it into 3 aspects: ‘Thought’, ‘Sensations’ – seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and ‘A sense of aliveness’.
So is the world unchanging from second to second? Are you?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hey Sarah

Have a look right at this ‘feeling of ‘I’. Pick it apart. What is it made up of?

The 'I' seems to be made up of my thoughts, emotions, bodily sensations, beliefs, ideas etc. It is almost 'molded' or 'formed' by these things.

Can you give me an example of some decision that is made regularly for us to look at? And can you also give me an example of something you control.

OK. Lets go with the decision to have a shower as a decision that is made regularly and finances as an example of something I control.

What notices ‘you’ are not there? And how does this feel?

If there is no 'i' then it must be just consciousness that notices 'i' am not there. it feels great as there is absolutely no negative emotion/thoughts in that state. In fact it feels as though I did not exist for a while.

Did you expect it not to?

Yes. Many people have an ah-ha moment, or so I've read on your forum. For me, its very ordinary.

Have a little look at this please and give me a rough percentage of how often thoughts are either in the future or in the past.

Say 60% future, 50% past.

Direct Experience is what is noticed, here and now and for the purposes of investigation we split it into 3 aspects: ‘Thought’, ‘Sensations’ – seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and ‘A sense of aliveness’.
So is the world unchanging from second to second? Are you?

Ok, gotcha. Then in this case, the world is constantly changing and so am I.


Peace

Sikara

Good morning Sikara

The 'I' seems to be made up of my thoughts, emotions, bodily sensations, beliefs, ideas etc. It is almost 'molded' or 'formed' by these things.

OK – so now look closely at the sensations – are they overlaid with thoughts explaining and interpreting? Are the emotions?

OK. Lets go with the decision to have a shower as a decision that is made regularly and finances as an example of something I control.

OK – so when you next take a shower I want you to watch the decision process like a cat watches a mouse hole? I want you to look for movement regardless of thought. So does the body move and do things regardless of what is thought. Also when do the thoughts come – before, during or after? Does this make sense?

Next – finances. Can you tell me how you control this? What process is used e.g. is it thinking or calculating? Does this make sense?

If there is no 'i' then it must be just consciousness that notices 'i' am not there. it feels great as there is absolutely no negative emotion/thoughts in that state. In fact it feels as though I did not exist for a while.

OK – Im going to refer to this as ‘that which notices’. I may use it quite a bit – is that ok? Is there a thought that wants this ‘feeling great’ all the time? Is there also a thought that doesn’t want any negative emotions? Or that wants to shut thought up? Are thoughts and negative emotions the enemy?

Next time you experience negative emotion or thought – have a little look at that which notices – is it bothered? Does it want rid? Does it ever not allow something to be experienced? No worries if forgetting happens, just pick up when remembering happens! OK :)

For me, its very ordinary.

Here too :) No fireworks.

Say 60% future, 50% past.

Lovely. OK – so do you see how these thoughts are forever talking you out of what is – and sending you to the next field where the grass is greener? ‘This’ cant be it. ‘This’ ordinariness cant be it. Do you see?
Hugs Sarah xxx

hi !!

OK – so now look closely at the sensations – are they overlaid with thoughts explaining and interpreting? Are the emotions?

Yes the sensations and emotions are just overlaid with thoughts, such as (in reference to sensations): energy, 'pulsating', 'moving', 'fizzing', 'tingling' etc. These are merely words - they cannot describe the actual experience. In regard to emotions there is 'negative' and 'positive' - anger, despair, anxiety etc are all labelled as negative, whilst 'joy', 'happiness',' peacefullness' are usually labelled as positive. But could it be that it is just energy moving about the body and it is neither good nor bad? Could we be so badly conditioned that we actually BELEIVE there are good and bad emotions, when really, it's just energy ?

OK – so when you next take a shower I want you to watch the decision process like a cat watches a mouse hole? I want you to look for movement regardless of thought. So does the body move and do things regardless of what is thought. Also when do the thoughts come – before, during or after? Does this make sense?

Next – finances. Can you tell me how you control this? What process is used e.g. is it thinking or calculating? Does this make sense?

As I only have a shower once a day, and that is not much opportunity to observe (my mistake), I changed it to doing things around the house - cleaning, tidying, dusting etc. There is no thought that says "now I will walk, now I will do the dishes, now I will put the away, now I will dust, now I will hum a tune as I clean. It's all automatic, as my body were a robot. It - cleverly-just does things.

Finances are controlled by thoughts - "how much do I need this week for electricity, food, rent etc". Calculating the total amount needed this week for living expenses - it seems all automatic, just as automatic as the hands that are typing these words.

OK – Im going to refer to this as ‘that which notices’. I may use it quite a bit – is that ok? Is there a thought that wants this ‘feeling great’ all the time? Is there also a thought that doesn’t want any negative emotions? Or that wants to shut thought up? Are thoughts and negative emotions the enemy

Yes, there are just thoughts that want me to feel great all the time, such as "when will this pain go away"? I don't want it, I must do something to get rid of it". There are also similiar thoughts that want to be rid of anxiety, anger, despair, depression etc. To me, negative thoughts (positive ones are welcome) and negative emotions are the enemy. I cannot stand them.

Next time you experience negative emotion or thought – have a little look at that which notices – is it bothered? Does it want rid? Does it ever not allow something to be experienced? No worries if forgetting happens, just pick up when remembering happens! OK :)

That which notices couldn't care less about WHAT is going on - whether it is good or bad. It is just still and quiet and unmoved by what is going on around it.

Lovely. OK – so do you see how these thoughts are forever talking you out of what is – and sending you to the next field where the grass is greener? ‘This’ cant be it. ‘This’ ordinariness cant be it. Do you see?

Yes, I see how thoughts are always looking to the future for a time when I will be happy, and never allowing me to see what is right in front of me right now. I'm looking now and there's a strange feeling that if I just sit in the now, then I will lose control. How strange. But I want to try being in the now. But my mind is fearful, it seems.? I've only just realised that.

Love

Sikara

Hi Sikara!

Yes the sensations and emotions are just overlaid with thoughts, such as (in reference to sensations): energy, 'pulsating', 'moving', 'fizzing', 'tingling' etc. These are merely words - they cannot describe the actual experience. In regard to emotions there is 'negative' and 'positive' - anger, despair, anxiety etc are all labelled as negative, whilst 'joy', 'happiness',' peacefullness' are usually labelled as positive. But could it be that it is just energy moving about the body and it is neither good nor bad? Could we be so badly conditioned that we actually BELEIVE there are good and bad emotions, when really, it's just energy?

Lovely! OK – keep noticing this labelling of movement of energy and you tell me! What is a label really? Just a thought? Can a thought ever really explain an experience? What can a thought ever really know?
Are thoughts yours?

As I only have a shower once a day, and that is not much opportunity to observe (my mistake), I changed it to doing things around the house - cleaning, tidying, dusting etc. There is no thought that says "now I will walk, now I will do the dishes, now I will put the away, now I will dust, now I will hum a tune as I clean. It's all automatic, as my body were a robot. It - cleverly-just does things. Finances are controlled by thoughts - "how much do I need this week for electricity, food, rent etc". Calculating the total amount needed this week for living expenses - it seems all automatic, just as automatic as the hands that are typing these words.

Fabulous! Well noticed! OK keep looking. If you come across a situation where you think you are in control or you decide or whatever – look right at it. What is it that tells you that?

Yes, there are just thoughts that want me to feel great all the time, such as "when will this pain go away"? I don't want it, I must do something to get rid of it". There are also similiar thoughts that want to be rid of anxiety, anger, despair, depression etc. To me, negative thoughts (positive ones are welcome) and negative emotions are the enemy. I cannot stand them.

Im going to pm an exercise for you to use to look at strong emotions.
What cannot stand them? Is that a thought? Can you sit with ‘I cannot stand’? Can you strip it of story?

That which notices couldn't care less about WHAT is going on - whether it is good or bad. It is just still and quiet and unmoved by what is going on around it.

Beautiful Sikara. OK – so I want you to keep checking in with that which notices. Is it ever not there? Is it ever not accessible?

Yes, I see how thoughts are always looking to the future for a time when I will be happy, and never allowing me to see what is right in front of me right now. I'm looking now and there's a strange feeling that if I just sit in the now, then I will lose control. How strange. But I want to try being in the now. But my mind is fearful, it seems.? I've only just realised that.

What is wrong with right now outside of thought?
Keep looking at how often you are projected into future grass is greener thinking. See how much of it there is. Especially when fearful. What is afraid?
How can you not be in the now? Where are you if you aren’t here? Is this thought again telling you this cant be it?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hey Sarah

Lovely! OK – keep noticing this labelling of movement of energy and you tell me! What is a label really? Just a thought? Can a thought ever really explain an experience? What can a thought ever really know?
Are thoughts yours?

A label is just a thought - and thoughts cant think, so they know nothing! Thoughts are not in a position to say ANYTHING. They cannot say "oh that is bad" or "that is good" because they don't know anything.
Are thoughts mine? They seem to be generated here. Are they my thoughts and no one else's? I think so. Actually that is a difficult question to answer. I will have to ponder that further. But, in my direct experience, I think
that these thoughts are mine.

If you come across a situation where you think you are in control or you decide or whatever – look right at it. What is it that tells you that?

So far, with anything I do - whether it is to hug and kiss my dog, or go for a walk - it appears to be automatic.

Im going to pm an exercise for you to use to look at strong emotions.

Thankyou. I will do that exercise over a week, so that I can be sure of the outcome.

What cannot stand them? Is that a thought? Can you sit with ‘I cannot stand’? Can you strip it of story?

When I say " I cant stand this anxiety, pain, etc, it is a thought. I sat with this thought "I want to be rid of this anxiety" I saw that the so-called anxiety was just energy and that thoughts just labelled it as negative. Of course, to me, it is still uncomfortable - though not to as large a degree as it was. I know that even "uncomfortable " is a label, but there is no other way to put it. Still I can see that perhaps, over time, it may be possible to experience this "anxiety", and just let it flow by as energy. I think it will take practice. This anxiety, i'm sure has something to do with fear. Fear of what I do not know, but I can wake in the morning and have this "anxiety" sitting in my chest. I am going to have to try and find the source. But that is beside the point of what we are discussing here. :)

Beautiful Sikara. OK – so I want you to keep checking in with that which notices. Is it ever not there? Is it ever not accessible?

This beautiful, quiet unmoving "thing" -I do not think it is a thing per se, but that is the label I use, is ALWAYS there.
It has been there with me always, but I don't pay much attention to it, sadly. Because it is always there, it is accessible all the time. It is nothing. it has no gender, no emotional pain, no thoughts, no religion etc. It is nothing at all. But it feels as if it could be very wise. That of course, could be more labelling. it reminds me of
a wise old owl that is sitting quietly on a branch constantly looking. I think I will spend more time getting to know this lovely "thing".

What is wrong with right now outside of thought?

I have sat with this all day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with now. I was just too fearful to sit in the now. I do not know why except to say that I think I thought I could lose control and that it has something to do with fear. I think I could do this living in the now thing. it will take immense practice, I believe, but I want it more than anything. To see and experience what is now instead of being in constant hell - the hell of my thoughts. I am crying now actually, with relief that perhaps I don't have to be at the beck and call of my thoughts and the realisation that I have put myself in this "hell".

Keep looking at how often you are projected into future grass is greener thinking. See how much of it there is. Especially when fearful. What is afraid

There is so much projection into the future when there is fear!!! I think, for me at least, nothing does it like fear! But what is afraid is a thought - it is certainly not the beautiful thing inside me - it couldn't give a shit!! Fear is a thought, I can clearly see that.

How can you not be in the now? Where are you if you aren’t here? Is this thought again telling you this cant be it?

You cannot ever not be in the now - you certainly cant project your body into the future - only the mind. So, i've been here in the now all along, but my mind has taken me for a ride into the future. Yes, I believe that it was merely a thought that said "oh this couldn't be it, Sikara". "There has to be bells and whistles and fireworks" When really, it is all just simple, isn't it? hahaha That is funny - and typical of my mind , which has a tendency to be over dramatic - but that is just another thought isn't it?

Peace and love

Sikara

Hi Sikara!

Are thoughts mine? They seem to be generated here. Are they my thoughts and no one else's? I think so. Actually that is a difficult question to answer. I will have to ponder that further. But, in my direct experience, I think that these thoughts are mine.

Look again it this. What says thoughts are yours? When you say generated here – where is that exactly? Can you find it outside of thought?

When I say " I cant stand this anxiety, pain, etc, it is a thought. I sat with this thought "I want to be rid of this anxiety" I saw that the so-called anxiety was just energy and that thoughts just labelled it as negative. Of course, to me, it is still uncomfortable - though not to as large a degree as it was. I know that even "uncomfortable " is a label, but there is no other way to put it. Still I can see that perhaps, over time, it may be possible to experience this "anxiety", and just let it flow by as energy. I think it will take practice. This anxiety, i'm sure has something to do with fear. Fear of what I do not know, but I can wake in the morning and have this "anxiety" sitting in my chest. I am going to have to try and find the source. But that is beside the point of what we are discussing here. :)

And if you sit with it? What happens to it?
OK – so now when you stay with it, ask it, what is wrong with this? What are you scared of. Ask with love. What do thoughts think is going to happen? Or not happen?

This beautiful, quiet unmoving "thing" -I do not think it is a thing per se, but that is the label I use, is ALWAYS there. It has been there with me always, but I don't pay much attention to it, sadly. Because it is always there, it is accessible all the time. It is nothing. it has no gender, no emotional pain, no thoughts, no religion etc. It is nothing at all. But it feels as if it could be very wise. That of course, could be more labelling. it reminds me of a wise old owl that is sitting quietly on a branch constantly looking. I think I will spend more time getting to know this lovely "thing".

Pay attention to it. Get curious about it. Is there any separation between you and 'it'?
Can you rest there?

I have sat with this all day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with now. I was just too fearful to sit in the now. I do not know why except to say that I think I thought I could lose control and that it has something to do with fear. I think I could do this living in the now thing.

Loose control? Did it ever have it? If thought says it does have control – then that means a thought can think?

it will take immense practice, I believe, but I want it more than anything. To see and experience what is now instead of being in constant hell - the hell of my thoughts.

What say ‘it will take immense practice’ to live in the now – again where are you if you aren’t in the now now? LOL.
What cares what thoughts say or don’t say? Is this thought wanting another thought to stop? Grass is greener if .....?

I am crying now actually, with relief that perhaps I don't have to be at the beck and call of my thoughts and the realisation that I have put myself in this "hell".

Who put what where? Take all the labels away – whats left? Investigate this hell? Get curious about it.

Yes, I believe that it was merely a thought that said "oh this couldn't be it, Sikara". "There has to be bells and whistles and fireworks" When really, it is all just simple, isn't it? hahaha That is funny - and typical of my mind , which has a tendency to be over dramatic - but that is just another thought isn't it?

LOL. Yes! Lovely. Hugs Sarah xxx

Hey Sarah, hope you are well,

Look again it this. What says thoughts are yours? When you say generated here – where is that exactly? Can you find it outside of thought?

It is only another thought that says thoughts are mine. I cant really know who's they are - nor if I actually create them myself. I cannot know, because thoughts can't think, and therefore don't know. I think it will remain a mystery. It really seems as if thoughts are being generated in the head area, but that again is another thought. I really don't know where they are generated or by whom, and will never know.

And if you sit with it? What happens to it?

Ok. I need to be clear that I seem to have an anxiety disorder - not as bad as I hear some people have - AND just a little anxiety/discomfort about letting go of past/future thoughts.

Both of them lessen and even disappears when focused on. But, of course, the anxiety disorder comes back again and again.

OK – so now when you stay with it, ask it, what is wrong with this? What are you scared of. Ask with love. What do thoughts think is going to happen? Or not happen?

Ok, with the anxiety about letting go of past/future thoughts, that disappears when I look at it. The thoughts said they were worried about seemingly having no control. But I realise there is no-one to have control, and I'm in the present anyway, so I've nothing to lose LOL. It was all just a thought.

As for the ongoing anxiety, I've been trying to figure this out by doing exactly what you suggest. But I do not get any sort of answer. I've talked to friends about it, I've been to a Dr (who only wanted to prescribe tablets for an 'anxiety issue') and I've looked within. Perhaps it is underlying symptom of past trauma - I don't know. But I cannot find the reason for it. But having said all that, for the last two days, when I have just sat and 'stared' it in the face boldly and not tried to resist or fight it, it HAS lessened a little. Perhaps that is all I need to do. Just not resist it. Time will tell .

Pay attention to it. Get curious about it. Is there any separation between you and 'it'?

No. The only separation is the thought that there is "me" and "the wise old owl"/"stillness" etc. There really is no separation.

Can you rest there?

Yes. I did this last night, during a meditation. This was wonderful. I was complete. I was happy. I needed nothing. I have not had this experience before. Previous meditations have always been a horrid fighting to shut up the mind. This was different. Yes, I may have had thoughts but it didn't matter. I was just wonderfully fine. There was no separation either. I was whole. Stuff about the 'I' and 'my thoughts' seem to be dropping away and I am seeing something else - it is nice.

Loose control? Did it ever have it? If thought says it does have control – then that means a thought can think?

No it never had control. A thought/thoughts cant have control haha. No, thoughts cannot think.

What say ‘it will take immense practice’ to live in the now – again where are you if you aren’t in the now now? LOL.

I was laughing my head off at the fact that I said I will 'have to practice being in the now'. That is really hilarious. Of course I am always in the now - only my thoughts are off in the past or future. It is merely thoughts that say 'It will take immense ".

What cares what thoughts say or don’t say? Is this thought wanting another thought to stop? Grass is greener if .....?

Yes, I am coming to understand that thoughts should just be observed and that's it and that I shouldn't give a crap what they think. Its all a lot of nonsense. It IS just a thought wanting another thought to stop. Its all thoughts.

Who put what where? Take all the labels away – what's left? Investigate this hell? Get curious about it.

No-one put no-one in a hell.!!! Also, the hell was a fantasy made up of thought. But there is no hell, because thoughts aren't real. When you take away the label 'hell', there is actually nothing. What a load of sh&t my mind comes up with!! and I believe it LOL.

Namaste

Sikara

Good morning Sikara!

But, of course, the anxiety disorder comes back again and again.

OK – so adding to what we have looked at so far – is there a desire for anxiety to not come back?
If anxiety appears – get curious about it – use that exercise I sent you. Pick it apart. What is it made up of? Are future thoughts involved here? Anything like ‘this shouldn’t be happening’ or ‘this isn’t it’? What makes anxiety so hellish? (And can I just say it is experienced here too).

As for the ongoing anxiety, I've been trying to figure this out by doing exactly what you suggest. But I do not get any sort of answer. I've talked to friends about it, I've been to a Dr (who only wanted to prescribe tablets for an 'anxiety issue') and I've looked within. Perhaps it is underlying symptom of past trauma - I don't know. But I cannot find the reason for it. But having said all that, for the last two days, when I have just sat and 'stared' it in the face boldly and not tried to resist or fight it, it HAS lessened a little. Perhaps that is all I need to do. Just not resist it. Time will tell .

Wonderful and Ive pm’d you another exercise!
See if there is a thought in there saying ‘this can be used as a means of getting rid of’.

Yes. I did this last night, during a meditation. This was wonderful. I was complete. I was happy. I needed nothing. I have not had this experience before. Previous meditations have always been a horrid fighting to shut up the mind. This was different. Yes, I may have had thoughts but it didn't matter. I was just wonderfully fine. There was no separation either. I was whole. Stuff about the 'I' and 'my thoughts' seem to be dropping away and I am seeing something else - it is nice.

Lovely. What state is ever permanent?

and I believe it LOL.

Who or what believes? :)
Hugs Sarah xxx

Sarah thanks for your wonderful help so far, it has clarified A LOT for me xxoo

OK – so adding to what we have looked at so far – is there a desire for anxiety to not come back?
If anxiety appears – get curious about it – use that exercise I sent you. Pick it apart. What is it made up of? Are future thoughts involved here? Anything like ‘this shouldn’t be happening’ or ‘this isn’t it’? What makes anxiety so hellish? (And can I just say it is experienced here too).

Sometimes, when I go off to sleep, I think "I hope I don't wake up with anxiety", so there is a desire to not have anxiety. Other times, I forget about it, only to find it it there. But Sarah, after talking to you, I have found that this strange anxiety has faded by, say, 50%. The more I dissect it, the more it seems to fade. I've done the 'pick it apart' techniques as per your email and it seems to be helping a lot.
As far as I can see, the mind was anxious about letting go of 'control'. But there is no-one to control anything anyway.

Wonderful and Ive pm’d you another exercise!

Thanks and I am working on that too.

See if there is a thought in there saying ‘this can be used as a means of getting rid of’.

Initially there was, definitely. But that seems to be diminishing as I see that anxiety is just an energy. I am now
just curious and actually want the anxiety to be there sometimes so I can look at it!!! It may sound silly, but I am just interested now to learn about it.

Lovely. What state is ever permanent?

None. But wouldn't it be nice if we could all walk around like this 24/7??

Who or what believes? :)

No-one, because there is no separate identity here - or in any other body.

lovexxoo