The Gate

Curiosity brings me here and nothing to lose.

My background:
Curiosity since early age.
5 years of irregular Vipassana and 4 reatreats over those years.
Last year and half has been interesting journey with Advanced Yoga Practices website building my current two times daily practice consisting of pranayama with mantra meditation. Aproximately one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening with some noticable results and progress over time.

Hello nirguna,

My name is Jon. Welcome to LU. I am a guide here. Thanks for your introduction.

If you'd like me to guide you please let me know and we can get started?

I notice that you have not listed any expectations. What do you hope to achieve or gain by initiating a conversation here? Are you familiar with what we do here on Guding Forum?


Regards,

Jon.

Ok. Lets start.
No expectation really. I stated in my intro that I have nothing to lose. In a way of hope, it is the same.
It is curiosity brings me here. I am commiting myself to be honest here 100%. Lets enjoy journey, wherever it takes us.
This is exciting. Thank you for beeing my guide.

Hi Nirguna,

(by the way, would you like me to call you by this name or a different one?).

Which time zone are you in. I am in England, UK.

Ok. Lets start.
No expectation really. I stated in my intro that I have nothing to lose. In a way of hope, it is the same.
It is curiosity brings me here. I am commiting myself to be honest here 100%. Lets enjoy journey, wherever it takes us.
This is exciting. Thank you for beeing my guide.

Great. OK, I will briefly explain what we do here. The two of us will have a conversation, a chat as between friends if you like? The purpose of this conversation will be for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. All our investigations will be focused on this. I will tend to ask a series of questions that are intended to point towards this and it is for you to look.

Please put aside all expectations other than just to realise there is no 'I'. That 'I' is always just the content of thoughts and nothing that can be found as really existing.

I would also ask you to put aside all previous non-dual teaching and thoughts about awareness etc, and approach this very simply from honest basic beliefs.

Have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

It is useful to use the 'Quote' button as I have to quote my replies - It will make the conversation easier.
A guide for it's use can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Now, please tell me what you think 'you' are?


Warm regards,

Jon

[quote="JonathanR"]

(by the way, would you like me to call you by this name or a different one)

Nirguna is fine.

(by the way, would you like me to call you by this name or a different one?).

Nirguna is fine

Which time zone are you in. I am in England, UK.

I'm in Melbourne Australia

Great. OK, I will briefly explain what we do here. The two of us will have a conversation, a chat as between friends if you like? The purpose of this conversation will be for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. All our investigations will be focused on this. I will tend to ask a series of questions that are intended to point towards this and it is for you to look.

Sounds good :)

Please put aside all expectations other than just to realise there is no 'I'. That 'I' is always just the content of thoughts and nothing that can be found as really existing.

Yes. I'm comfortable with this.

I would also ask you to put aside all previous non-dual teaching and thoughts about awareness etc, and approach this very simply from honest basic beliefs.

Yes. I am willing to attempt fresh look into this.

Have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Yes. I agree with all the above.

Now, please tell me what you think 'you' are?

Well this is a difficult one. Most honest answer would be, I dont know.
Sure, I have names and stories but all 'I' in them is just that, names and stories.
When I investigate, there is no satisfiable answer. I can not pin it down.
Who is investigating or who can not pin it down???
Again, I don't know. Hopefully, you can guide me.
I am open, willing.....

Thank you for willing to guide me.
Nirguna

Hi Nirguna,

Thank you for willing to guide me.

You are very welcome. I'm delighted to assist.

Than you for agreeing to the guidelines, by the way.

Well this is a difficult one. Most honest answer would be, I dont know.
Sure, I have names and stories but all 'I' in them is just that, names and stories.
When I investigate, there is no satisfiable answer. I can not pin it down.
Who is investigating or who can not pin it down???
Again, I don't know. Hopefully, you can guide me.
I am open, willing.....

Ok. This is a fair start, not knowing.

I notice that you didn't mention the body. For many people 'me' is felt to be 'in the body' somewhere, maybe behind the eyes? For others it is more about whoever it is that has thoughts and thinks. Do you recognise either of these from your experience?

Are 'you' the thinker of thoughts?


Regards,
Jon

I notice that you didn't mention the body. For many people 'me' is felt to be 'in the body' somewhere, maybe behind the eyes? For others it is more about whoever it is that has thoughts and thinks. Do you recognise either of these from your experience?

I dont have the feeling that I am this body or the thinker. Sure, when eyes are open I know I am here as opposed to there. If i have to locate myself in space, it would be here somewhere in the region behind the eyes or little bit lower, around heart, and the rest of the body extends from there.

With eyes closed, it is different story. There is no location of I. It feels like space like awarenes. Thoughts have their momentum and sometimes I spot their non stop ramblings.

Are 'you' the thinker of thoughts?

Funny question. Hmmm....
I am not these thoughts but am I thinker of them?
I gues yes, I am the thinker of them. They happen....
To me..... Now, if I have to describe this 'me'....
Not possible. Intellect stops. No qualities.
It is space like awareness. Not still, quite dynamic.
Thoughts appear as if on screen of this.
I feel like I am observer of these thoughts.

Please guide me further.
Thank you.

Hello Nirguna,

I dont have the feeling that I am this body or the thinker. Sure, when eyes are open I know I am here as opposed to there. If i have to locate myself in space, it would be here somewhere in the region behind the eyes or little bit lower, around heart, and the rest of the body extends from there.

Ok, eyes is a good place to start. Here is an investigation that you can try.

Right here and now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that?
Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone?

Funny question. Hmmm....
I am not these thoughts but am I thinker of them?
I gues yes, I am the thinker of them. They happen....
To me..... Now, if I have to describe this 'me'....
Not possible. Intellect stops. No qualities.
It is space like awareness. Not still, quite dynamic.
Thoughts appear as if on screen of this.
I feel like I am observer of these thoughts.

So, thoughts appear but do you make them happen?

:-)

Jon

Hi Jon.
Lets see then.

Right here and now examine your experience.
The words on the screen are being seen. What are they being seen by?
From thought, we have the idea that 'I see the screen'.
So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

I really don't know. I can not find satisfiable answer to either who or what is seeing. It is a honest answer.

Can anything be found? There is the thought 'I see', but is there actually an 'I' to be found that does the seeing?
If so, what is that? Do you experience a body seeing? Or would you say that there is just 'seeing'? Just the experience alone?

Yes it feels like just seeing, experience alone. Investigation to who or what does not yeald satisfactory answer.

So, thoughts appear but do you make them happen?

They just happen.

I hope we can get out of this loop.

Cheers :-)

Hi Nirguna,

I hope we can get out of this loop.

Are we in one?

So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.


I really don't know. I can not find satisfiable answer to either who or what is seeing. It is a honest answer.

It's a good answer. Thank you. Does this strike you as at all mysterious that there is no one found doing the seeing but seeing happens anyway?

Yes it feels like just seeing, experience alone. Investigation to who or what does not yeald satisfactory answer.

Who or what needs a satisfactory answer?

Just shifting attention to thoughts, it is possible to experience thoughts appearing alongside the experience of seeing, isn't it? For example the thought 'I am seeing' could appear? But where you have said 'it feels like just seeing' there was no suggestion that any thoughts appeared.

Now, returning to looking directly at the immediate experience of seeing, if a thought appears, would you say that this is something extra to that direct sensation, something that is added on?


Cheers,

Jon

Hi Jon.

I hope we can get out of this loop.

Are we in one?

Sorry. I should not have said 'we'. I feel I am in one, chasing my own tail with 'who am I?'

So what is 'I'? What can be found right here and now in your experience that is 'seeing the screen'.

I really don't know. I can not find satisfiable answer to either who or what is seeing. It is a honest answer.

It's a good answer. Thank you. Does this strike you as at all mysterious that there is no one found doing the seeing but seeing happens anyway?

It is mysterious that things happen without really being sure to whom it happens.

Yes it feels like just seeing, experience alone. Investigation to who or what does not yeald satisfactory answer.

Who or what needs a satisfactory answer?

Good point. That is the loop I feel I am in.

Just shifting attention to thoughts, it is possible to experience thoughts appearing alongside the experience of seeing, isn't it?

Yes, thoughts happen, there is seeing of them. More looking at them than alongside seeing. I am not sure if I am making sense, but I get that they are somehow separate.

For example the thought 'I am seeing' could appear? But where you have said 'it feels like just seeing' there was no suggestion that any thoughts appeared.

Being lost in thoughts is my natural everyday experience. Focus sometimes shifts on the observer. At that moment thoughts are seen as separate and they lose their grip, being dominant or taking full attention on themselves. This is where I experience temporary pause in thoughts. In this case I like to ask who is me than. Obviously, thoughts can not be me. They come and go. But who knows this? If I do not rely on thoughts for this answer, then I get that there is perceiving happening by itself. Thoughts or no thoughts. I wish I can be more clear about this.

Now, returning to looking directly at the immediate experience of seeing, if a thought appears, would you say that this is something extra to that direct sensation, something that is added on?

Yes, exactly. It feels like that thoughts appear ti that immediate experience of seeing.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for your patient questioning.

nirguna

Hi Nirguna,

Who or what needs a satisfactory answer?


Good point. That is the loop I feel I am in.

I'll re-phrase this question then

What would 'satisfactory answer' look like? What would 'satisfactory' mean?

This is where I experience temporary pause in thoughts. In this case I like to ask who is me than. Obviously, thoughts can not be me. They come and go. But who knows this? If I do not rely on thoughts for this answer, then I get that there is perceiving happening by itself. Thoughts or no thoughts. I wish I can be more clear about this.

This is good. Yes, And you have been clear. It does seem that the noticing of sense experience and of thoughts happens by its self.

But what about the content of thoughts? Each thought appears. And each thought seems to be ABOUT something, some idea, doesn't it? Some comment or announcement that is not actually happening as part of immediate experience or sensation, here and now? For example, thoughts about 'past' or 'future'? A thought may be about 'the past' but can 'past' ever exist outside the thought of it? Can 'me' ever 'exist', outside the thought of 'me'?

Important. Can the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing? Try preventing a thought from happening.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for your patient questioning.

Yes, very helpful, thank you. I love patient questioning :-)

Jon

Hi Jon

J: Who or what needs a satisfactory answer?

N: Good point. That is the loop I feel I am in.

J: I'll re-phrase this question then

What would 'satisfactory answer' look like? What would 'satisfactory' mean?

This leaves me dumbfounded. To answer such question would entail mind or imagination.
How would satisfactory answer look like to the question 'Who am I'? There should be none.
Ha :) no satisfactory answer should be satisfactory. Argh... another loop....

But what about the content of thoughts? Each thought appears. And each thought seems to be ABOUT something, some idea, doesn't it? Some comment or announcement that is not actually happening as part of immediate experience or sensation, here and now? For example, thoughts about 'past' or 'future'? A thought may be about 'the past' but can 'past' ever exist outside the thought of it? Can 'me' ever 'exist', outside the thought of 'me'?

Important. Can the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing? Try preventing a thought from happening.

Is seeing thought as well? Something is not clear to me here. I see "I" as the one that see thoughts as separate. Is that one seer or witness 'A thought' as well. If yes, than the thought 'I' can not be prevented. A thought that is seen as separate can be prevented. For example, as I stated before, sometimes there is seeing without thoughts.

Can you please clarify this two just to make sure we are on the same page.

Thank you again.

N