If at first you don't succeed

[chris lewis]

I am a 39 year old man living in the eastern time zone. Last year I came here and saw that "I" did not exist. This seeing only lasted a few minutes and then it was neck to the unhappy Chris story, with a body to identify with. In the last year, I have done and continue to do personal growth work. I have made many life changes. Hopefully this will lighten the load and help me to see that there is no "me" more permanently.

[Ilona]

Hi Chris.
Thank you for coming back.
What is that you are looking for? Can you describe what should be different?


Kind regards.

[chris lewis]

Hi Chris.
Thank you for coming back.
What is that you are looking for? Can you describe what should be different?


Kind regards.

Hi Ilona,
I have had brief tastes of what it is like to live without a false "self" , and it is much preferable to living with a bunch of thoughts saying a particular body is "me". Why continue to suffer for a fiction?
I am also aware that expectations are also ideas of the mind. I have them, but I try to observe them from time to time as part of the story. I try to be aware of that as part of what I am trying to change and make different.
So I guess it comes down to me looking for taking a leap into the unknown, and wishing to experience and see something new, because this ego thing is just no fun at all. Something different from boring and painful " me".
By the way, I am trying to find ways to deal with emotional pain other than this. I am fairly aware now that escaping and not dealing with pain backfires in the end. Might as well suck it up and deal with it. I think that's possibly went my glimpse didn't last the last time around. The ego's pain drove me back.
I hope I answered your questions adequately. I found them a bit difficult, because my mind has its ideas and it's tough to separate fact from fiction and I know you want honesty

[Ilona]

Thank you for answer.

I have had brief tastes of what it is like to live without a false "self" , and it is much preferable to living with a bunch of thoughts saying a particular body is "me". Why continue to suffer for a fiction?

Sounds like you are confusing a pleasant state with, that did not last with realisation. It's not the same. You think that life without a self is happy ever after? Well, no. Suffering is not because there is a self or not. It's here because of unexamined beliefs that you hold as true. Not because a fictional self comes and takes over. But because you believe that it does.

So I guess it comes down to me looking for taking a leap into the unknown, and wishing to experience and see something new, because this ego thing is just no fun at all. Something different from boring and painful " me".

What is ego? Define in your own words, what is that, where is it? Is it in control of what is happening? How do you experience ego?

By the way, I am trying to find ways to deal with emotional pain other than this. I am fairly aware now that escaping and not dealing with pain backfires in the end. Might as well suck it up and deal with it. I think that's possibly went my glimpse didn't last the last time around. The ego's pain drove me back.

I don't know where you pulled this from, but this investigation has nothing to do with easing emotional pain, it's not a therapy and it does not promise to end all problems. I see you have a lot of expectations and are using this inquiry as a means to solve the emotional pain. I'm sorry, but that's not part of the deal. Emotions don't get lesser, but more intense.

I hope I answered your questions adequately. I found them a bit difficult, because my mind has its ideas and it's tough to separate fact from fiction and I know you want honesty

Thank you. can you tell me, if this does not solve your problems, do you still want to investigate? If this has no benefits whatsoever, is this something you would still be interested in?

What are you really looking for?
A state?
A happy ever after?
A zero emotional pain?
...
?

Kind regards.

[chris lewis]

Thank you for answer.

I have had brief tastes of what it is like to live without a false "self" , and it is much preferable to living with a bunch of thoughts saying a particular body is "me". Why continue to suffer for a fiction?

Sounds like you are confusing a pleasant state with, that did not last with realisation. It's not the same. You think that life without a self is happy ever after? Well, no. Suffering is not because there is a self or not. It's here because of unexamined beliefs that you hold as true. Not because a fictional self comes and takes over. But because you believe that it does.

So I guess it comes down to me looking for taking a leap into the unknown, and wishing to experience and see something new, because this ego thing is just no fun at all. Something different from boring and painful " me".

What is ego? Define in your own words, what is that, where is it? Is it in control of what is happening? How do you experience ego?

Ego seems to be the idea of a separate person, called Chris, in my case, and the belief that a particular body is me. It is constantly thinking in a language, and uses the body's sense organs as supposed proof that the body is "me". The thought patterns, combined with evaluation of data provided by the sense organs, create emotions, and pain and pleasure.

By the way, I am trying to find ways to deal with emotional pain other than this. I am fairly aware now that escaping and not dealing with pain backfires in the end. Might as well suck it up and deal with it. I think that's possibly went my glimpse didn't last the last time around. The ego's pain drove me back.

I don't know where you pulled this from, but this investigation has nothing to do with easing emotional pain, it's not a therapy and it does not promise to end all problems. I see you have a lot of expectations and are using this inquiry as a means to solve the emotional pain. I'm sorry, but that's not part of the deal. Emotions don't get lesser, but more intense.

I hope I answered your questions adequately. I found them a bit difficult, because my mind has its ideas and it's tough to separate fact from fiction and I know you want honesty

Thank you. can you tell me, if this does not solve your problems, do you still want to investigate? If this has no benefits whatsoever, is this something you would still be interested in?

What are you really looking for?
A state?
A happy ever after?
A zero emotional pain?
... I suppose I am after all of these, but I understand this is a trap, created by the mind. I do not know what will happen when I enter this process, but I would like to examine this any ways. Expectations are fictional ideas, as is expecting benefits. I will try to keep realistic in the future.
?

Kind regards.

[Ilona]

Tell me, what comes up for you, what sensations show up, thoughts, images, emotion, when you let this thought in-

There is no I, no separate self, none as in zero. Everything that is happening is simply happening, without you being the general manager of the universe. There is no puppet master, no ghost in the machine. No one to be liberated. It's all already free and complete and flows freely. You as you think you exist, does not exist.


Watch the reaction to this and note down all that you notice, as you are noticing.


Sending love

[chris lewis]

Tell me, what comes up for you, what sensations show up, thoughts, images, emotion, when you let this thought in-

There is no I, no separate self, none as in zero. Everything that is happening is simply happening, without you being the general manager of the universe. There is no puppet master, no ghost in the machine. No one to be liberated. It's all already free and complete and flows freely. You as you think you exist, does not exist.


Watch the reaction to this and note down all that you notice, as you are noticing.


Sending love

There is a mild freeing sensation, and my body tingles slightly, in a pleasant way. There are sounds outside, such as people talking and cars starting, but they are just happening, and can to some extent see that they are not happening to a separate "me". It does seem liberating.

There is also the verbal debate about whether or not it would be a good thing to live without a " self " . There is some fear here, for sure. There is some understanding that ideally, I wouldn't take this debate seriously, or even have it at all, but after all, it is part of experience. It seems though, that the debate leads to unpleasant bodily sensations, such as a tightness in my chest and somewhat of a " dread" feeling, though I can't say 100% that the dialogue indeed causes the pain. It is just there, along with the verbal dialogue.

[Ilona]

Nice.. Good to hear, that a bit of relaxation was felt.

In your own words, what it is to live with a self? What would be lost if there really is no self?
What does this I/ separate being do? How do you experience separatedness?

Write all that comes up and feels 100% true.

Sending love

[chris lewis]

Nice.. Good to hear, that a bit of relaxation was felt.

In your own words, what it is to live with a self? What would be lost if there really is no self?
What does this I/ separate being do? How do you experience separatedness?

Write all that comes up and feels 100% true.

Sending love

Living with a self is to see yourself as a separate body or person, who lives a separate existence from all other people, or "selfs", as well as from other animals, and also inanimate objects.

It is hard to say what would happen if the separate self were to disappear, or be seen as false. It seems as though the need to compete and struggle with life would change, or even disappear. It would be liberating. But it is hard to say.
The collection of ideas and psychological beliefs that comes with belief in a separate self would almost certainly change, though it's hard to say how. The collection of ideas may be lost, replaced with what? There would probably be less thought in general, since thought is something that seems to be the glue that holds the separate self together. But I'm not sure. The entire world, as the self sees it, such as the people around it, and the city it lives in, could potentially disappear.

This separate being acts out its vulnerability, by competing , fighting with, and generally being fearful of other beings and the world in general. It feels constantly threatened and is constantly hurting and being hurt by " others ". It also looks to the past and future as a true "reality", and is constantly thinking.

We experience separateness from being told from a young age that our body is a separate self. We are given a name, and told we are separate. This is usually done in an indirect way, by other " self's" who are told they are separate themselves, and believe it. I remember being taught some of the basic ideas about "who I am" in school, as a young child.

[Ilona]

ok, try this:

close eyes for 5 min and imagine you are holding a spoon in your hand. imagine it vividly, shape, weight, temperature, texture, keep the image as real as you can. examine the spoon from all sides. notice how mind creates an image and how sensations show up.

then open eyes.

tell me, what happened to the spoon.
did it disappear?
was it ever real?
what about sensations that were there? were they real?

now look, is self something real, something that does not disappear when you stop thinking about it? or it's like imagined spoon?

can you see that there is a story ABOUT a separate entity, but where is this mysterious entity if there is no story ABOUT it?

write what you notice.


sending love.

[chris lewis]

ok, try this:

close eyes for 5 min and imagine you are holding a spoon in your hand. imagine it vividly, shape, weight, temperature, texture, keep the image as real as you can. examine the spoon from all sides. notice how mind creates an image and how sensations show up.

then open eyes.

tell me, what happened to the spoon.
did it disappear?
was it ever real?
what about sensations that were there? were they real?

now look, is self something real, something that does not disappear when you stop thinking about it? or it's like imagined spoon?

can you see that there is a story ABOUT a separate entity, but where is this mysterious entity if there is no story ABOUT it?

write what you notice.


sending love.

The spoon was rather difficult to imagine, I had to work very hard to imagine it. But I was able to approximate what it would be like to have a spoon in my hand.
The mind created an image of a spoon, yes. Then the image seemed to disappear when I opened my eyes and saw there was no spoon.
The idea of self seems to be similar, yet different. I am so used to considering my body, as well as certain ideas about "me"to be a self, that no effort is required to imagine what I am. I had to really try hard with the spoon to imagine that it was there, and even then I was not really convinced. The idea that a body, and version thoughts about " me " as a self is automatic.
Yet, for instance, if I look in the mirror, and say "That's me" and then look away from the mirror, did I disappear? Or was the image never really me or a self in the first place? Again, an automatic assumption, which was taught. I possibly am lying to myself when I say that a body and face are a self and that this self exists when not looking in the mirror. Or even when looking in the mirror.
It does seem that compulsive thought and the creation of mental imagery form a significant part of the idea of self. It is taken for granted by almost all people, so it is rarely questioned. But thoughts and mental imagery are not reality. But out of habit, it becomes virtually real.

[Ilona]

The idea of self seems to be similar, yet different.

it wasn't built in a few minutes, but a lifetime. but, it's same. mind imagines something there, because it assumes it must be.
have a good look for yourself, is there?

what comes up?

[chris lewis]

The idea of self seems to be similar, yet different.

it wasn't built in a few minutes, but a lifetime. but, it's same. mind imagines something there, because it assumes it must be.
have a good look for yourself, is there?

what comes up?

What is there seems to be a collection of ideas and images of what a self is. The body is an image, and is assumed to be a self, but the body alone is not self. Sensations such as pain related to the body also seem to be part of a self. Possessions, such as clothing seem to help define the self. Other ideas about self, such as job, likes and dislikes, places I have been, etc. also seem to define self. So a self seems to formed out of various pieces, such as those described above, and together they form "me".

Seen from this perspective, a self does not seem real. You would think that self would be so solid, not a mishmash of thoughts and images, cobbled together. However, it seems the habit of identification is so strong, the cobbled together images and ideas survive.

There is not 100% proof that self is real. I cannot point to anything and say " Aha, there's self! "

[Ilona]

However, it seems the habit of identification is so strong

explore this for a bit, what is that identifies, how does it work, what does identification affect? in which way? what is that owns identity?


write more, what feels true.

sending love

[chris lewis]

However, it seems the habit of identification is so strong

explore this for a bit, what is that identifies, how does it work, what does identification affect? in which way? what is that owns identity?


write more, what feels true.

sending love

I am finding it hard to answer these questions, because the mind and body are not easily made into a "me" as is commonly assumed. A bunch of ideas and images, and sensations, connected to some sort of emotional "body" seems to identify with itself.

It seems like the ideas, images and sensations interact with each other in a way that convince itself of a separate identity. It also uses emotions to further make the connections appear more " solid ", and believe that things are happening to it, it being the idea, body, sensation and emotion combination.

Identification with this cobbled together " self " interact with other "selfs" and also with itself, to affect a virtual reality of images, thoughts, sensations, by creating behaviors and actions based on the belief in a separate self. This is where I get confused, is the so called self's thoughts influencing actions committed by the body? One would think so, but I can't be sure.

Identification seems to affect thoughts, for so much compulsive thinking is tied up in the I thought. The content of much or most thinking is related to the idea of a separate self, and thoughts spoken and written, which appear to affect other selfs, are also a product of thoughts about an apparently separate self.

There may be no true owner of identity. It appears to be related to a body, but the body itself is just an object, and cannot claim true ownership of identity.