The Gate

Hi. It's been a while since using this forum and not really getting anywhere with this no self business, so here I am again. Can anyone help me see this through? I will be brutally honest and won't just say things you'd like to hear; this search means everything to me. Thank you.


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Hey there,

I'm Tanya and can feel your frustration :) I had it too, but it happened and the illusion was seen. So, I can guide you if you want?

First things first though - can I just call you Bob? Easier to type. ;)

Let me know where you feel stuck, and what your experience is right now in as much detail as you can.

Catch you soon,

Tanya

Thank you Tanya . Where do I start?! I've been on some sort of spiritual quest most of my life and came across nonduality about 4 years ago. Since then I've read hundreds (literally!) of nondual books, blogs, etc. I instinctively feel that this is the truth and understand that the seeing of no-self is the key, I just don't see it. I'm so confused now, I'm not even sure what the hell a "self" even is! It doesn't help that even from a young age I've harboured solipsistic thoughts and this adds to my confusion. I basically want to be from from all the fear in my life; fear of illness and death of myself and my loved ones. I'm not looking for bliss or fireworks, just a simple shift in perspective that allows me to really KNOW deep down that all is well; there is no threat, just life living itself.

That's pretty much where I'm at at the moment Tanya. Really hope you can help.

Paul (not Bob )


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Hi Paul,

I hear ya! Seems we've been on a similar crazy train.

OK, so just a quick reminder of the house-keeping rules:

**You know what Direct Experience is? Just use the senses to answer the question I will ask you; senses of seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling (both touching and kinaesthetic which is the sensation of movement) - along with thought ONLY (not the content) and that sense of being here (aliveness)

**Hopefully both of us will be able to post once a day and if we can't, we will let each other know. My times to post to you will vary as my job times vary.

**Reminder to use the quotation buttons for ease of reading. If you've forgotten just let me now.

** It's helpful to write answers into a word document and then cut and paste to the forum as sometimes it shuts us out. The cheek! ;)

** It is best to stop reading those books now, and give your full attention to this, but if you do any meditation then please carry on. This comes about through a relentless focus and if other guiding ideas take you in another direction then it defeats the purpose.

**No throwing peanuts at me for the questions I ask :) - which might make the sensation of frustration come up! And that's OK if it happens (not the peanut throwing!), that is part of the deal if anger or frustration comes. It did here, but know it is just the mind not wanting to believe or let go. I guess I will be asking similar questions to your previous guides, and perhaps I may even have you doing similar exercises at some point, but that is all we have, as tools, to get this done. OK?

OK, so if you can say 'Aye' to all of that, we shall proceed . . .

there is no threat, just life living itself.

You re spot on here! But, from Direct experience ONLY, tell me how you know this?

Also, what comes up when I suggest there is no 'you' at all. Never was, never will be. Ever!

Oh, and I promise to be patient ;)

Tanya

Thanks Tanya, aye to the above!

Firstly, I've only read that there is no threat, just life living itself. It's certainly not my experience, quite the opposite. This is the insight I hope to achieve.

When you suggest that there is no 'you' and never was, I just feel confused. My sense of self has always been very strong and real; I'm more than a little self conscious most of the time and my self enquiry over the last couple of years has only served to intensify this self consciousness, which in turn plays into the hands of my solipsism. Aggghhhhh!!

I feel so real and solid and separate from everything else around me. I feel completely alone. To tell me there is no self just seems the most ludicrous suggestion possible. I can't overemphasise just how strong my sense of self is Tanya. This ain't gonna be easy my friend!


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Aw now, ye of little faith :) I know how crap it can feel, Paul, but when I ask you 'Where is the evidence (D.E.) that the story of a sense of self being strong and self consciousness?' Using Direct Experience only (D.E.) investigate this and let me know what you find.

Can you touch this story? Can you put it down? Is it a tangible and real thing?

:)

I'll ponder on this today Tanya and get back to you when I can; long day at work yesterday and today. Speak soon. P


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OK, Paul :)

Catch you soon.

Ive had a bit of a ponder Tanya and to be honest I'm not sure what you are asking me (sorry for being a bit thick). Everyone has some sense of self; we couldn't live in society without it. It's not a story, it's a very real sense of being an individual interacting with our environment. I'm not sure it can be put down fully, but I'd like to think it can be diluted until 'personal' suffering drops away. How can I do that Tanya?


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:) No, you're not being thick - this is so damn simple that we have all over-looked it! It is so unbelievable for many because they are trying to get this with their mind - and that is what is in the way.

OK, so right now you are stuck in conceptual thinking. This is the hurdle I see right now. Your examples:

Everyone has some sense of self; we couldn't live in society without it. It's not a story, it's a very real sense of being an individual interacting with our environment.

Not everyone has a sense of self. This is a generalised blanket statement and a conceptual thought. Where is the evidence? Through the gate here is full of people whose personal self has dropped away. Conceptual thinking will get in the way here. We just need you to simply look at where I point. This is a sticking point for many, Paul. We are so used to using our minds, but this is nothing to do with the mind. And if you are now looking at my words and thinking, 'Jeez, this woman is mad!' :) then consider when you are fast asleep. Are you thinking then? You might be dreaming, but you are not using your body, your eyes, your legs. Conscious thinking is switched off, yet you still exist, don't you?

If I asked you to imagine a tea cup . . .then imagine holding it out to me . . .and then I pick up a real kettle and pour real boiling water into your imaginary tea cup! Can you see what I mean here? The difference between what is actually there before you, versus virtual reality like imagination and thought concepts; beliefs, ideas, opinions etc. Can you put any of those in my hands as physical objects?

I'm not sure it can be put down fully, but I'd like to think it can be diluted until 'personal' suffering drops away. How can I do that Tanya?

Another belief :) Again where is the proof? And the way you do it is by seeing what is there right in front of you, right here-right now - not what you 'think' about the question I ask you. The mind will try and tell you its opinion, but just 'look'

This isn't a half way journey, Paul. Suffering will drop away when it is seen there is no you. Emotions will come and go always, eventually they are just not taken as personal because it is seen there is no self.

So answer this by just looking directly at what is in from of you and answer -
Without referring to another thought where exactly is the thinker? Is it not another thought that would suggest "I am the thinker?" Find what you call a thinker in experience. Do not look to thought, look in your experience.

Catch you soon :)

Tanya

I really appreciate your help with this Tanya! You are spot on; it's all mind stuff with me. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with this 'just look' thing. I always try and think it through and don't know how not to! Its unbearably frustrating for me, but it must be pretty frustrating for you people too, as you say it is so simple!

I'm really sorry but I don't understand what you have asked me to do with those final questions Tanya


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First things first - I'm sending you a hug because you remind me of the old me, being hard on yourself!

Seriously Paul, people don't get this so easy. So be kinder to yourself, OK? :)

Let's take a look at this 'seeing' malarky . . .When I talk about 'seeing', I actually mean it literally. For example. if I asked you to look and see the tree in the field as we were walking down a country lane, you wouldn't think about it, you would just look. Yes? You wouldn't think about looking, or think about what a tree looked like before looking, you would simply look.

If I asked you to 'hear' the dog - same thing. If I asked you to touch a tree. . .no thinking required.

What I'd like you to do is read, and really digest the info in this link. It is all about Direct Experience. What we here call D.E. for short. This is the tool we use to see this stuff. Once thought ideas come into it, we have lost the direct connection to what is being seen.

http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/

Then answer the following based on your shiny new understanding of DE! :)

Do you agree or disagree with the following: Direct Experience consists of
- sights, sounds, physical sensations, smells, and tastes
- thoughts, mental images, and feelings in the form of touch and kinaesthetic
- a sense of being or aliveness

Is there anything else? Did I leave anything out?

There is no rush, Paul. Just make sure you absolutely understand what DE is. If you need to ask questions for more clarity then ask away. I had this problem too. It took me ages to understand DE and what was being asked. I was addicted to thinking! LOL.

I'll be out tonight, so might not get back to you till tomorrow.

Catch you soon :)

Tanya

Thanks for the hug Tanya, much needed!

Yep I think you just about covered it for DE. Though I was surprised to see 'thoughts' there in the list; I thought that was what I was trying to avoid? Yeah, addicted to thinking lol, that about sums me up! I just can't stop! I'm usually ruminating about all this stuff, the meaning of life etc etc. No wonder I have such trouble sleeping


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Yes, thought is tricky. We will never avoid thinking, even after we Gate. The arising of thought will be happening, always.

What we mean here is that thought - the actuality of it, the happening of it - is real, just not the content of it. You think about Batman, you are actually thinking, thought is arising, that is a real experience, but what you are thinking of is not. The object is not real. The story that is contained within a thought, the imagined stuff, the concepts, the ideas, opinions, beliefs - all not real. Anything that comes and goes cannot be real. Geddit? :)

So as an exercise - take a look around you and list what is seen. Ignore your ideas, your concepts, your opinions, list it and write to me what you can see, hear, smell, taste and feel.

Catch you soon :)

Tanya

Don't mean to sound pedantic, but listing things is labelling and therefore requires some thought doesn't it? (told you I'd be a pain in the arse! )

Anyway, ok here goes: I see the contents of the living room, TV, sofa, flowers, mirror, bookshelves, etc. I am tasting some nice Redbush tea right now (oops that's my opinion) and can feel cool air on my skin. Just heard a train go past ("god I'm crap at this" thought just popped into my head). Not too sure why I'm doing this, but trust in your methods Tanya!

P.



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