The Gate

Hello, my name is Omar and I am humbly requesting the aid of a guide.

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
A desire to free the mind of the attachment to "I"

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
Seeking enlightenment, most recently through Buddhism (Theravada lineage). Intellectual understanding of the concept of no separate self and a temporary (~48 hrs) no separate self experience.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?
Permanently experiencing life without attachment to the idea of "me"

Hello Omar - Welcome to the Forum.

My name is Xain, and I am a guide here.

Seeking enlightenment, most recently through Buddhism (Theravada lineage). Intellectual understanding of the concept of no separate self and a temporary (~48 hrs) no separate self experience.

I have a good grasp of Buddhism and have a few friends who are Triratna order members.
Good that you have had that experience.
Just as a pointer, this guidance is not about achieving any particular experience or state.
Experiences are temporary. What this guidance is about is a realisation.
It will be realised that 'I', this separate self we believe we are is entirely based on self-referencing thoughts.
As such, it will be realised that there is no inherently existing separate person or self. Nor has there ever been, or ever will be. Paradoxically, it is also realised that no inherently existing separate self ever realised anything.
In Buddhist terms, this breaks the first two fetters and is often considered as 'stream entry'.

Permanently experiencing life without attachment to the idea of "me"

What expectations do you have? What do you expect to happen or what do you expect 'life to be like afterwards'?
Also, do you have any worries or concerns?

I look forward to your reply
Xain ♥

Hi Xain,

Thanks for offering guidance!

What expectations do you have?

I hope for gradual abatement of mental activity relating to my unique experience, and greater awareness in the present moment (experiencing and not relating to thoughts of being the experiencer). Possibly, an absence of fear of death. Truthfully, deep down, I'm hoping that it will decrease the drive for perfection and allow relief from overbearing doubt, hesitation, and procrastination.

What do you expect to happen or what do you expect 'life to be like afterwards'?

I expect life will continue on the same with the exception that there will be a perceptual shift in my mind about how my unique experience relates to the "rest of the world".

Also, do you have any worries or concerns?

My only worry is that "I might never realize the truth.

I hope for gradual abatement of mental activity relating to my unique experience

This may or may not happen.
The belief here is that the thoughts belong, are created and are being witnessed by a separate self / person.
This will be discovered not to be the case.
Also, you mention 'my unique experience'. This will be shown to be not unique at all, (that experience is not personal).

Possibly, an absence of fear of death. Truthfully, deep down, I'm hoping that it will decrease the drive for perfection and allow relief from overbearing doubt, hesitation, and procrastination.

This is fair. If there is no inherently existing separate self, that what is going to die?
What is seeking perfection and why the belief (perhaps) that things are not already perfect right now?
Or indeed, could they be different than they are?

I expect life will continue on the same with the exception that there will be a perceptual shift in my mind about how my unique experience relates to the "rest of the world".

Notice that this is a duality - A separation - There is 'my personal experience' on the one hand and 'the rest of the world' on the other. This will be discovered not to be the case.

What if nothing changes at all?
What if this is simply a realisation of what has been the case all along, but thought/mental assumptions got in the way of actually realising it?
I would ask you to put aside all expectations. Most, if not all expectations will be related to a 'me' in some way. Some-sort of personal gain. If it is realised that there is no inherently existing separate self, what is going to gain something?

I would also ask that (for the moment) to put aside all Buddhist philosophy and any other non-dual beliefs that you have, and approach this from simple basic beliefs.
How does that sound?

Have a look at these guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

It is useful to use the 'Quote' button as I have to quote my replies - It will make the conversation easier.
A guide for it's use can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Let me know if you have anything else you would like to mention or questions you may have, and we can begin if you would like.

Xain ♥

Yes Xian, I understand and have read the guidelines. I am ready to begin.

Notice that this is a duality - A separation - There is 'my personal experience' on the one hand and 'the rest of the world' on the other. This will be discovered not to be the case.

How are the mind/body processes of "Omar" not different from the mind/body processes of "Xian?"

How are the mind/body processes of "Omar" not different from the mind/body processes of "Xian?"

With the assumption / belief that 'I am this body', then sure . . . we can say one body has processes and another body has different processes. This is a duality. Two separate bodies.
The guidance here is to question the belief 'I am this body' - 'The self' - Is it really true? What makes it so?

Let's examine what you currently believe about yourself.
In Buddhist terms, we are examining the first fetter. The self. 'I'.
What is 'I'? - What does the word point to? What is it responsible for (I will use the word 'you' to point back of course). Try to keep this very simple. Speak from honest basic beliefs.

For example . . . right now, are 'you' a person - The body that is here right now (from your question) that has mind and body processes.
You (the body) are sat or laid down.
You are looking at a screen - Reading words off the screen - Listening to sounds in the room or outside.
You have choice and free-will. You chose to begin a guidance here.
You control your own life (to some extent).
You control your body.
In a while you will think of a suitable reply. You will decide what to write and type it is using your hands/fingers on a keyboard.

How does that sound?
Like I say - Basic beliefs. Feel free to reject what I have written if it doesn't work for you and speak from your own beliefs / position. I'm not looking for spiritual or Buddhist terminology here unless it is completely clear that what you are saying is a totally authentic and clear for you.

Xain ♥

What is 'I'? - What does the word point to? What is it responsible for (I will use the word 'you' to point back of course).

When using language to convey 'self', 'I' refers to these ever changing process of consciousness, thoughts, sensations, feelings and matter. Therefore, 'I' refers to this mind and body that has existed for 36 years, 126 days, 13 hours, 1 minute, and 20 seconds... 21 seconds... 22 seconds... etc.

'I' is only a thought and can not be responsible for anything, only used linguistically to segregate. However, thoughts of 'self' are prominent in the mind and if there is no effort in being mindful of their occurrence and limited meaning they produce great suffering.

Well . . . that is perhaps a bit of a 'technical' description.
It may take a bit of time for us both to 'calibrate' so we are on the same wavelength . . . bear with this process.

Therefore, 'I' refers to this mind and body that has existed for 36 years, 126 days, 13 hours, 1 minute, and 20 seconds... 21 seconds... 22 seconds... etc.

Is that the time from exit of the womb or from conception?
(I'm joking).
But then . . . when did 'you' really begin?

Reading between the lines, it would appear from your time description that you believe that you are the body. Also, that you have a mind and thought processes. You are a time-bound entity. You were born and you will die (all pointing to the limited existence of the body).
Is this fair? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I need a basis from which to begin.

'I' is only a thought and can not be responsible for anything

I would assume that you don't currently believe this - Else why ask for my guidance?
Or perhaps you've discovered this to some degree already but . . . there's a sticking point?
Remember, we are dealing with honest basic beliefs. Owning up to our beliefs can be a tricky thing.
I want to know what you really believe.

However, thoughts of 'self' are prominent in the mind and if there is no effort in being mindful of their occurrence and limited meaning they produce great suffering.

Is there a 'you' having these thoughts?
Is there a 'you' making an effort to be mindful?
Is there a 'you' suffering?
Please answer what you honestly believe - Not what you think is the right answer or what you think I might want to hear.

Xain ♥

Reading between the lines, it would appear from your time description that you believe that you are the body. Also, that you have a mind and thought processes. You are a time-bound entity. You were born and you will die (all pointing to the limited existence of the body).
Is this fair?

Yes, I associate 'self' with the body, in the current moment. I also believe that everything is in a constant state of change and therefore, there is nothing that I can define as a permanent 'self'. The past and future 'self' are only memories and thoughts.

Is there a 'you' having these thoughts?

I think that thoughts come from a collective consciousness and it is 'my' mind, in the present moment, that chooses to cling to the thoughts.

Is there a 'you' making an effort to be mindful?

Yes, 'my' mind is making an effort, each moment, to be mindful.

Is there a 'you' suffering?

Yes, 'my mind' is perceiving certain sensations as suffering.

Yes, I associate 'self' with the body, in the current moment.

Good. This is a good basis from which to begin and explore.

I also believe that everything is in a constant state of change and therefore, there is nothing that I can define as a permanent 'self'.

Impermanence eh? ;-)

Is there a 'you' making an effort to be mindful?
Yes, 'my' mind is making an effort, each moment, to be mindful.
Is there a 'you' suffering?
Yes, 'my mind' is perceiving certain sensations as suffering.

Good - Again, an excellent basis to explore further.

Ok, let's begin by exploring 'I am this body'. Generally this belief is held in place by the assumption that the body is actively sensing the outside world. The body 'does' the senses, hence 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc
Also, there appears to be control over the body's movement and passage through life.

Let us begin by examining the sense of 'seeing'.

The past and future 'self' are only memories and thoughts.

Yes. A wise consideration.
We can have thoughts about the past where there was an 'I' (a separate self) that was seeing - 'Yesterday I saw an elephant' or the future, 'Tomorrow, I might go and see my best friend'.
For the next exercises, rather than going to memories and thoughts, I want you to answer from what can be found in the experience of doing the exercise itself. This might sound tricky, but in fact it is completely simple - Just answer from what can be found or what appears to be the case in the immediate moment / experience of doing the exercise.

Right now, a screen is being seen.
Words are being read off the screen.

Now, what can be found that is doing the seeing IN THE EXPERIENCE ITSELF?
Can whatever is performing the function of 'seeing' be found in the experience?
Can an 'I' be found that is doing the function of seeing?
To put it another way, are there two things found in the experience of 'seeing'?
1) A screen being seen.
2) An 'I' that is doing the seeing.
Or is there just 'seeing the screen'?
What can be found?

Also, in the experience of reading. As these words are being read, what can be found that is reading them IN THE EXPERIENCE ITSELF?
Are there two obvious things in the experience of 'reading'?
1) Words on a screen that are being read.
2) An 'I' that is reading those words.
Or is there just 'reading words off a screen'?
What can be found? What appears clear?

Xain ♥

To put it another way, are there two things found in the experience of 'seeing'?

There is only one sensation of seeing. After the initial experience, when trying to look for something that sees, a thought is formed that the eyes perceived the screen.

Also, in the experience of reading. As these words are being read, what can be found that is reading them IN THE EXPERIENCE ITSELF?

In the experience itself, there is only reading. No other sensations are found because it appears that there is a limitation in the ability to experience multiple sensations or comprehend multiple objects, each moment.

There is only one sensation of seeing. After the initial experience, when trying to look for something that sees, a thought is formed that the eyes perceived the screen.

Good.
You have noticed that 'eyes do the seeing' is not something found in the experience, but a thought ABOUT the experience.
What about 'I see'?

No other sensations are found because it appears that there is a limitation in the ability to experience multiple sensations or comprehend multiple objects, each moment.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Perhaps you are trying to over-complicate the exercise.
Following on from what you discovered in 'seeing' . . .
Normally it is consider the brain is something needed for cognitive processes like reading . . . but . . .
Is 'Brain does the reading' something that is found in the experience or a thought occurring about what may be responsible?
What about 'I read'?

Xain ♥

What about 'I see'?

'I see' is analogous with the 'eyes see' because the eyes are a part of the body that I believe to be the 'self'.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

I was trying to convey that only one object (physical or mental) can be observed, in a particular moment in time.

Is 'Brain does the reading' something that is found in the experience or a thought occurring about what may be responsible?

No thoughts about what is doing the reading is found in the experience of reading, only the sensations of seeing and perceiving words.

I am beginning to understand that in direct sensate experience thoughts of a 'self' are absent.

What about 'I see'?
'I see' is analogous with the 'eyes see' because the eyes are a part of the body that I believe to be the 'self'.

Yes.

Is 'Brain does the reading' something that is found in the experience or a thought occurring about what may be responsible?
No thoughts about what is doing the reading is found in the experience of reading, only the sensations of seeing and perceiving words.

I understand, but when I said 'thoughts occurring', I was taking your cue from:

. . . when trying to look for something that sees, a thought is formed that the eyes perceived the screen.

I am trying to draw a distinction between what can be established from the experience directly, and what MAY be an assumption from memory / thought.
So in reference to that, is 'I see' the same? 'I' being a thought formed about what is doing it rather than something that can be found from the experience directly?

Let's also trying 'hearing' in the same way.

Sit for a moment and listening to sounds in the room, or sounds from outside.

Now inquire - In the hearing of the sounds, in the EXPERIENCE ITSELF, can what is hearing the sounds be identified?
Are the ears found responsible? Is there an 'I' found responsible?
Or (again, taking from your cue) would 'I hear' or 'Ears hear' be just thoughts formed about what is responsible?

Are there two things to be found in the experience of hearing?
1) Sounds being heard
2) An 'I' hearing them?
Or is there just one sensation of 'hearing'?

Xain ♥

So in reference to that, is 'I see' the same? 'I' being a thought formed about what is doing it rather than something that can be found from the experience directly?

No, 'I see' is a thought that comes after the direct experience.

Now inquire - In the hearing of the sounds, in the EXPERIENCE ITSELF, can what is hearing the sounds be identified?
Are the ears found responsible? Is there an 'I' found responsible?
Or (again, taking from your cue) would 'I hear' or 'Ears hear' be just thoughts formed about what is responsible?

No, there is nothing identified as hearing, in the experience itself. When posed with the question as to what hears, a thought of the ears hear comes to mind.

Are there two things to be found in the experience of hearing?
1) Sounds being heard
2) An 'I' hearing them?
Or is there just one sensation of 'hearing'?

Yes, there is only the sensation of hearing, in the direct experience. Any thoughts of what is doing the hearing is formed after the direct experience.