The Gate

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?

I (this body-mind organism) found mind unleashed via stumbling across gateless gatecrashers on amazon (which I read most of, but at this time, am still reading). I (who?) couldn't believe my good fortune (Who couldn't believe their good fortune? And the story-line continues). "I" have felt something hazy and strangely amiss since maybe age 18? "I" have been actively seeking for about 8 years. "I" am ready to dissolve as a belief, so to speak :-) (Wow, that sounds weird. :-) )

-What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

Many interesting shifts and aha's over the years. There is a seeing of "just this" and thoughts just running and stuff just happening...sometimes...seemingly briefly...until something like a hypnosis seems to occur and there's a buying into self or something. The "I" belief seems to live strongest when there's fear. Don't know how relevant this is really, but "I've" read a lot and did go through a Master's program in 2008 that brought forth an awareness of this whole delusion of a separate self.. It seemed to peak with the discovery and reading of When Fear Falls Away by Jan Frazier. Before that, there was a chasing of "self" improvement that probably started at age 16. Since the discovery of the delusion of self, there has been seeking with tons of reading, listening to talks, sitting with people in discussions and satsang on rare occasions, that kind of thing. Self-Inquiry in spurts ...seeing though perceptions, perception shifts sometimes. Seeing though some suffering seems to have intensified lately...like an unraveling.

-What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?

Honestly, "I" wouldn't say "expect". "I" would say "hope for"..... a clear, permanent shift in perspective where there's an oh so clear seeing that there is no "me" like....It won't be possible to slide into believing that there is a "me" because the shift is so complete. Like it won't really be possible to believe in something that "I've" seen isn't actually there. Like "I" read about Spiderman or Santa Claus. So clear that they don't exist, even though they still "live" in imagination, so to speak. What would be the ramifications of seeing this? Seems like relief might be a big one. Full Throttle ahead. :-)

Hi tallestgirl- Vivien is away at the moment so sure, let's have a dialogue. What would you prefer I call you?

I'd be very happy to be your guide and we'll see what happens.
Just some practicalities and guidance on how this process works first off:

What time zone are you in? I'm BST UK time.

It's good to learn how to use the quote function on this forum- any problems do ask. Also best to write long posts in a wordpad etc as the forum can suddenly log you out.

These are my versions of the 'groundrules'-

1- 100% honesty- by this I mean- no censoring, no telling me what you think I want to hear, or repeating what you have heard from somewhere else.

2-That you strive to only report as closely as you can your direct experience when answering my questions. By this i mean what you can find right here and now, through the perception of your senses, not conceptual ideas, speculation or things from teachings you may have read or seen. To aid this i request you hold off reading spiritual books or watching such content online just whilst we are in this dialogue. Continuing core meditation practices, especially less 'cognitive' practices like just sitting/mindfulness of breathing is fine.

3-That we both agree to post daily, unless we let each other know why that is not possible at that time. Momentum is really key for this process. However I am very busy with work at the moment, so will not be able to post more than once every 24 hours.

I'm not here for and would not want to teach you anything, to give you new concepts or beliefs. I cannot give you answers, only point out and guide where and how to look for yourself at the way things are currently viewed and believed to be, and test out if that's how it really is.
Question every single thing i say here against your current experience.

Does that all sound ok? If so let's start...your intro was great, really comprehensive and honest, just what we need here. I'm not trying to be picky or narky, looking at hopes and fears is a key part of this.

- Straight off, there is no need to use quotation marks unless you are emphasising a particular point- i will be asking directly to look for and describe this 'i' whether you put that little letter in quotation marks or not, so it makes no difference... ;)

-

"I" am ready to dissolve as a belief,

what is a belief? And how would a belief 'dissolve'?

-

until something like a hypnosis seems to occur and there's a buying into self or something. The "I" belief seems to live strongest when there's fear.

talk me through this is more detail, can you look closer when this happens and describe this? Not from what you've heard, from observing what's going on in the moment as it happens... that's labelled 'fear'.

what are the raw sensations?
What are the thoughts saying about those sensations?
give me an example.

Since the discovery of the delusion of self, there has been seeking with tons of reading, listening to talks, sitting with people in discussions and satsang on rare occasions,

See the groundrules...books and teaches can say anything, like a book or video can tell you and show you about Paris- but in the end it's not the same as getting on a plane and standing in front of the Eiffel tower. that's why we ask for suspension of all that to take a fresh look here.

seeing though perceptions, perception shifts sometimes

Tell me about the current view/ideas about these 'perception shifts'. Are they neccessary? are they important?

a clear, permanent shift in perspective where there's an oh so clear seeing that there is no "me" like....It won't be possible to slide into believing that there is a "me" because the shift is so complete

Ok, here's your first real exercise...

Sit quietly and take a simple look at experience. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, and thoughts.
Do the same whilst walking about, normal activities...
In all of that, at any point, is anything to be found meeting the criteria of 'permanent'?

What would be the ramifications of seeing this? Seems like relief might be a big one.

Relief from what? what exactly wouldn't be there that is present right now?

Hi Hannah and thank you so much for being willing and taking the time to guide me! Lots of anxiety and gratitude over here :-)
My name is Lury, and please call me that.
I am in PST – California time
Regarding groundrules:
1) 100% Honesty: Yes. I will do my very best with this.
2) From direct experience & no reading or listening to spiritual texts: Yes, I will not read or watch or listen to any spiritual texts. I have to ask to be sure…this includes all texts and quotes and stuff from this site too, right?
3) Yes, I will post every day. The only way I wouldn’t would be if something happened with my internet because I am out in a remote place right now, but it has been working since I got here about a month ago, so should be no problem.
I will test out everything you say in experience, though I may need to be reminded on occasion

I want to start off by telling you that I’m noticing a sort of fearful guarded feeling. Throat slightly constricted. Slightly tense feeling. I remember this feeling from when I went through the landmark forum. It feels like wanting to protect something and feeling afraid of something. Guarded. Ready to defend. Slightly sweaty palms and armpits. Afraid of being wrong or something. Just noticing that. It’s like being asked questions I don’t know the answer to and afraid I’ll say the wrong thing and be chastised. Noticed it most intently when I started to respond to the belief question you posed.

what is a belief? And how would a belief 'dissolve'?

A belief is (wow…I just started crying. Okay).
A belief is an unchallenged idea.
How do I answer this without going into concepts? I don’t see how to answer it without concepts. Idea is a concept. That’s the only thing holding a belief in place, which isn’t actually holding it in place because there’s nothing there.
So beliefs don’t exist  . Wow. That was easy. Really? Wow. I guess they don’t. They really don’t. They aren’t here. They can’t be held or touched or seen or felt.
But what about things we can’t see or touch or hear or feel? They don’t exist? (A lot of laughing and crying here…I’ve been looking at this for a few days already before you emailed me). Is there anything that exists that we can’t “sense”? I don’t know. I feel like there are too many things like that. I can’t look at them all one by one…can I?

until something like a hypnosis seems to occur and there's a buying into self or something. The "I" belief seems to live strongest when there's fear.

talk me through this is more detail, can you look closer when this happens and describe this? Not from what you've heard, from observing what's going on in the moment as it happens... that's labelled 'fear'.

what are the raw sensations?
What are the thoughts saying about those sensations?
give me an example.

Looks like I got a chance to look at your second question without even realizing it. I just gave you an example of what happens when there’s fear. Does I should tell you that I’ve recently (within the past month) found that nearly on automatic, attention has tended to go to bodily sensations only… when I start to get really upset about something. I just go into feeling the sensations and forget about whatever the issue was and the sensations crescendo sometimes with serious, forceful crying and then a calming happens and there’s calm over my body. It’s been really interesting.
Another example of fear might be…when I wake up in the morning afraid that I’m not going to do the things I need to do to keep things going smoothly. Like being on vacation right now and feeling like there are things I need to do, and just not doing them, at least not on the timeline my mind thinks. Then there’s a feeling of internally being sped up…heart pumping a little faster, some kind of rolling energy movement feeling in my gut, slightly more shallow breathing, slight tightness in the chest sometimes. Thoughts say, I need to do this today. I have to do this today. How come I haven’t done this yet? What if I don’t? I have to. What is my problem? Just do it, do it, do it. Okay. I’ll do it In a little bit. Ugh. I don’t want to. I’ll get to it sometime today.

Since the discovery of the delusion of self, there has been seeking with tons of reading, listening to talks, sitting with people in discussions and satsang on rare occasions,

See the groundrules...books and teaches can say anything, like a book or video can tell you and show you about Paris- but in the end it's not the same as getting on a plane and standing in front of the Eiffel tower. that's why we ask for suspension of all that to take a fresh look here.

Yes. No more reading, etc.
I do have to say that last night, I was reading through the quotes on the liberation unleashed app and I came across one that made me nuts right up till I went to bed. It was a quote about Batman and Santa and the self and the seeing that all of those thoughts are there, but pointing out how the concept of those things exist, but not those things….and then I saw it. I saw how “I” is just a construct. I just kept screaming at my boyfriend, It’s all imagination! I saw it. The concept of “I” is just like Batman. There is no such thing. Might as well replace “I” with the Easter Bunny. There’s just no such thing as “I” or It was so plain and obvious. I couldn’t believe how obvious it was, but I could see how it wouldn’t be able to see it if not looking at it the way I finally saw it. It scrambled my brain for a while. And this morning talking to him, I saw all automatic. All the talking was automatic. And it was all clucking. Like it means absolutely nothing. It’s just clucking and there’s movement. That’s it.

seeing though perceptions, perception shifts sometimes

Tell me about the current view/ideas about these 'perception shifts'. Are they neccessary? are they important?

Are perception shifts necessary? I would say perception shifts are not necessary, but they are important. Seems like I could say they are not in our control, but I would be lying about what’s really present here. Seems to me like I feel like some of this stuff is just happening, but it’s also because I have been doing all this efforting. But I have been doing all this efforting because I’m interested and want this. Which is, apparently, how I’m built. I could live my entire life with no perception shift and that would still just be life living, whether it was seen or not. I get that. Life just seems so much easier and more interesting when the entirety of it is seen. Seems like I’ve gotten glimpses, but it doesn’t hold or something. Scared feels so real and…stressful and I don’t know…just scary. All the thoughts seem so real. What if I end up homeless and elderly? What if I am attacked or maimed or something? What if I’m living in squalor? What if I’m trapped in my body as a vegetable and am totally alert with no way to communicate? These are background thoughts I’ve been concerned with…at least I think I have. I know those are just thoughts, but they seems so possible and so real.
Sorry. Tangent. I’m trying to stay on task and stay open and honest. Maybe that tangent was too much mind fodder? I’m not sure.

a clear, permanent shift in perspective where there's an oh so clear seeing that there is no "me" like....It won't be possible to slide into believing that there is a "me" because the shift is so complete

Ok, here's your first real exercise...

Sit quietly and take a simple look at experience. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, and thoughts.
Do the same whilst walking about, normal activities...
In all of that, at any point, is anything to be found meeting the criteria of 'permanent'?

Okay. It doesn’t appear that anything is permanent. Nothing. Well maybe a sense of being or here-ness? That just came to me. I’ve never heard it used, but it’s a good made up word for my purposes. I don’t know if I could say that’s permanent, but it doesn’t ever seem to go away or change.

What would be the ramifications of seeing this? Seems like relief might be a big one.

Relief from what? what exactly wouldn't be there that is present right now?

Maybe a sense of fear? Fear of everything kind of low grade? More peace? Just being here and enjoying all facets of existence? A sense of fear of the future? (I have to say, I keep looking at the question and it just made me smile like, yeah….what wouldn’t be here? )
Ah…hmm…the fear is only here when there is a believing thoughts…but belief doesn’t exist…so what am I talking about? (Laughter). Circles. So that would mean there’s no fear because all that’s here is what’s here. And then I circle back around to “But there’s still a belief that I’m doing something”. Then there’s that word “belief” again.
All that can be done is to be here. But then what about the stress when it comes? Then it’s here and then it’s not…or it’s never here. Just looks like it is. Good grief. When does the circling stop?

Lot's of intensity in your response- I went in full pelt on the last post but there is no rush, let's both take a deep breath :)

Throat slightly constricted. Slightly tense feeling. I remember this feeling from when I went through the landmark forum. It feels like wanting to protect something and feeling afraid of something. Guarded. Ready to defend. Slightly sweaty palms and armpits. Afraid of being wrong or something.

ok so let's pick this apart a little more- sounds like you already are looking in this way, great- so we have a physical visceral sensation element here (throat tight, tense muscles, sweating)
then also the thought story that comes along with with the plotline-

'something needs protecting/defending, i'm afraid, something is wrong here'...

I want you if that reaction happens again to ask -

'What is it exactly here that needs protecting/defending? From what?'.

Let me know what comes up from that.

They really don’t. They aren’t here. They can’t be held or touched or seen or felt.

yes, beliefs are ideas, thoughts. They can't been seen touched or felt. Good looking.

What can a thought DO?

Is there anything that exists that we can’t “sense”? I don’t know. I feel like there are too many things like that. I can’t look at them all one by one…can I?

Flip this around a bit.- it's actually not as complicated as it looks.
If all thoughts stopped right now, all imagination, imagery popping up, words and pictures all about what's not being sensed right now, from what the next room looked like, to what might happen this evening, to the war on terror...

what's left?
what would actually change?

found that nearly on automatic, attention has tended to go to bodily sensations only… when I start to get really upset about something. I just go into feeling the sensations and forget about whatever the issue was and the sensations crescendo sometimes with serious, forceful crying and then a calming happens and there’s calm over my body. It’s been really interesting.

It's strange isn't it, the raw sensations without all the ideas about what they mean or signify. I sometimes talk about it like weather- like a storm, a hurricane, a cool breeze, warm sunshine. It arrives, does it's thing then passes through.

It was a quote about Batman and Santa and the self and the seeing that all of those thoughts are there, but pointing out how the concept of those things exist, but not those things….and then I saw it. I saw how “I” is just a construct. I just kept screaming at my boyfriend, It’s all imagination! I saw it. The concept of “I” is just like Batman. There is no such thing. Might as well replace “I” with the Easter Bunny. There’s just no such thing as “I” or It was so plain and obvious. I couldn’t believe how obvious it was, but I could see how it wouldn’t be able to see it if not looking at it the way I finally saw it. It scrambled my brain for a while. And this morning talking to him, I saw all automatic. All the talking was automatic. And it was all clucking. Like it means absolutely nothing. It’s just clucking and there’s movement. That’s it.

:)
How's all that looking now? Still as obvious and simple?
Is there anything going on that's not 'automatic'?

Seems like I could say they are not in our control, but I would be lying about what’s really present here. Seems to me like I feel like some of this stuff is just happening, but it’s also because I have been doing all this efforting. But I have been doing all this efforting because I’m interested and want this.

Ok, so was there a self, an I there that chose to 'do all this efforting' in the first place? and that then went and did it? Describe that self to me

Why are perception shifts important?

Scared feels so real and…stressful and I don’t know…just scary.

In what way is that fear story (all those 'what if' ideas you posted more 'real' than a story about batman or the easter bunny? What's going on there?

Okay. It doesn’t appear that anything is permanent. Nothing. Well maybe a sense of being or here-ness? That just came to me. I’ve never heard it used, but it’s a good made up word for my purposes. I don’t know if I could say that’s permanent, but it doesn’t ever seem to go away or change.

Nice looking there, great.
That's really something to keep checking and let the ramifications of seeing that sink in.
If NO perception or thought is permanent, then when thoughts talk about some sort of 'permanent perceptual shift'- how exactly would that work??

We#ll check back about the 'sense of beingness' later...

But then what about the stress when it comes? Then it’s here and then it’s not…or it’s never here. Just looks like it is. Good grief. When does the circling stop?

Do you mean when will thoughts stop?
Is there control over thoughts? Any more that sights,sounds, tastes, smells or sensations appearing?
Can those be stopped? By what?

xx

Hi Hannah,

Lots of intensity in your response- I went in full pelt on the last post but there is no rush, let's both take a deep breath :)

Yes. :)

then also the thought story that comes along with with the plotline-
'something needs protecting/defending, i'm afraid, something is wrong here'...
I want you if that reaction happens again to ask -
'What is it exactly here that needs protecting/defending? From what?'.
Let me know what comes up from that.

Okay. I will let you know when it comes up again.

What can a thought DO?

Seems like a thought can propel l a body into action. Thought: “I’m going to call my friend”. Body gets up and moves towards phone and dials number. Can a thought actually make a person do anything? No. The thought that agrees with the thought “I think I’m going to call my friend” seems to be what propels me. Can a body not have a thought like that and move towards the phone and do the action anyway? Thoughts themselves don’t do anything. They don’t really exist. It’s so odd. The body seems to respond to thoughts…I can see how the body responds to less “personal” thoughts like, “turn off the rice” or something. I do see here that thoughts don’t have to be personal …maybe the personal comes in later.
To answer the question, a thought on its own can’t do anything.

Is there anything that exists that we can’t “sense”? I don’t know. I feel like there are too many things like that. I can’t look at them all one by one…can I?

Flip this around a bit.- it's actually not as complicated as it looks.
If all thoughts stopped right now, all imagination, imagery popping up, words and pictures all about what's not being sensed right now, from what the next room looked like, to what might happen this evening, to the war on terror...
what's left?
what would actually change?

What’s left is just what is sensed. That’s all.
The experience is the only thing that would actually be different without all of the stuff you sited. I tried it. It’s like a veil being lifted. It’s very relaxing and I have come in and out of this and it’s felt easy…and scary. Like I was going to forget something or lose something. It seems simpler and more natural, but also scary. Good grief…how many times can I say “scary”?? The phrase would be “I’m afraid to let go.” Or so it seems :) Like…I have to keep worrying about all this stuff or I might miss something or just stop doing things I don’t want to do. Also, then I wouldn’t feel like I was anywhere. There would only be here. When I’ve had that experience, it’s like a surreal experience when I am only where I am sometimes. As if everything came out of nowhere and there are no roots or something. Eerie. Like driving down a big empty highway with no beginning point and no ending point.

It's strange isn't it, the raw sensations without all the ideas about what they mean or signify. I sometimes talk about it like weather- like a storm, a hurricane, a cool breeze, warm sunshine. It arrives, does it's thing then passes through.

Yes! That's exactly it :)

It was a quote about Batman and Santa and the self and the seeing that all of those thoughts are there, but pointing out how the concept of those things exist, but not those things….and then I saw it. I saw how “I” is just a construct. I just kept screaming at my boyfriend, It’s all imagination! I saw it. The concept of “I” is just like Batman. There is no such thing. Might as well replace “I” with the Easter Bunny. There’s just no such thing as “I” or It was so plain and obvious. I couldn’t believe how obvious it was, but I could see how it wouldn’t be able to see it if not looking at it the way I finally saw it. It scrambled my brain for a while. And this morning talking to him, I saw all automatic. All the talking was automatic. And it was all clucking. Like it means absolutely nothing. It’s just clucking and there’s movement. That’s it.

:)
How's all that looking now? Still as obvious and simple?
Is there anything going on that's not 'automatic'?

I feel like I sort of lost that “I” thing…although maybe not…it was sort of like holding the “I” at a distance and just looking at it. It’s a character in a story I tell myself. I could see how it’s just a story and that’s just a character that has nothing to do with me really or with what’s actually going on. But it still feels like there’s some disconnect in relating it to life in real time as I move through my day. The story-telling and believing still feels automatic…except when it doesn’t…like in little spurts like it did that next day after that experience… ever so briefly.
I could say no, there’s nothing that’s going on that’s not on ‘automatic’. I can see that sometimes to a point, but never completely and never for very long. It doesn’t look that way to me. Seems right and makes total sense, which isn’t seeing it, it’s just believing it (whatever that means).

I want to see it plain as day. I saw it so clearly the other day. It was a total trip. I didn’t feel like I was ‘trying’ to see it that way, that’s just what I saw. So I have a goal to see it all the time, but that goal seems like it’s in the way of me seeing it. It seems like lots of concentration and efforting again…and remembering. Is that normal?

Seems like I could say they are not in our control, but I would be lying about what’s really present here. Seems to me like I feel like some of this stuff is just happening, but it’s also because I have been doing all this efforting. But I have been doing all this efforting because I’m interested and want this.

Ok, so was there a self, an I there that chose to 'do all this efforting' in the first place? and that then went and did it? Describe that self to me

IT’s the same illusory self that feels like it’s doing this right now. It’s a total story. A total farce. Seems like there was a choosing entity that would redirect me to looking at all of this and reminding myself to do certain things and drop certain things. Sometimes that didn’t seem the case so much. The same self that isn’t here and doesn’t exist and is answering your inquiry and getting confused and frustrated and disoriented. The same self that’s telling me this is going nowhere but at the same time is telling me that this is exactly what I want to feel to see what I want to see. It’s like a committee instead of just one.

Why are perception shifts important?

Okay. I’m going to just roll with what I hear in my head.
Perception shifts are important because they determine quality of life. Like, if I always think everything’s miserable and look for the difficulty in everything, my life is going to be unhappy and uncomfortable. If the only perception is reality itself, that saves a lot of headache and suffering.
That’s coming from a mind that has it all figured out, of course.
Why does it seem easier to see stuff that seems outward (in my field of vision and senses) than stuff that seems inward (i.e. thoughts)? What is happening when I just see stuff happening and see a whole picture and hear clucking and respond with appropriate clucking, as opposed to when I think I’m actually doing something and everyone is doing something and something of importance is being said? It doesn’t really matter, but I know the difference. Or it seems like I do to me.

In what way is that fear story (all those 'what if' ideas you posted more 'real' than a story about batman or the easter bunny? What's going on there?

They seem like they could really happen as opposed to Batman or the Easter Bunny ever materializing. They seem like real future possibilities.

If NO perception or thought is permanent, then when thoughts talk about some sort of 'permanent perceptual shift'- how exactly would that work??

It seems like there is a story set I look from, say, 70% of the time. If I could just get that perception to be 70% zero story-line…
It seems like the possibility of holding perceptions lightly or something…just being here…in that state as ‘just here’ state as my primary frame of reference or something.
Like, the ‘here-ness’ and that state of clarity…is that here-ness just as it is in the raw with it as the centerpiece…

But then what about the stress when it comes? Then it’s here and then it’s not…or it’s never here. Just looks like it is. Good grief. When does the circling stop?

Do you mean when will thoughts stop?
Is there control over thoughts? Any more that sights,sounds, tastes, smells or sensations appearing?
Can those be stopped? By what?

No…just when will the focus on them and the hypnosis of their realness cease. I don’t think they’ll stop…I think they’ll just start to look like a feature of the landscape, so to speak. Like music in the background or something. That’s like if I had the thought, 'I’m a man'…that’s just not true and I’d just be like, what? It doesn’t even seem possible that that would run through my mind…um…except it just did…in the context of an example that seems ridiculous. Why believe any of them? But it doesn’t feel like a choice. It feels like it’s on automatic. Well isn’t that interesting. But if belief doesn’t exist, how can I ‘believe’ anything? It’s a non-existent thing…but it still feels real. If a belief is an unexamined idea, what’s an idea? An idea is a thought. Unexamined thought then? Belief is an unexamined thought? Then what’s a thought? Something I hear in my mind or around my head. But do I even hear it? IT’s not really heard in the sensual sense. What IS a thought? There’s no answer to that question as far as I can see other than there is no such thing. Then what am I hearing? (laughing). OMG. What am I hearing? I’m not hearing thoughts, but I am. But not outside…but what’s inside outside? (OOOooh. I just had a fear of losing everything. All ideas, that is. I heard it faintly) or did I? There’s no hearing involved here. There’s no sense used for this. So where is it? (shaking my head). Puzzled look I’m sure). Where are the thoughts? I’m not hearing them. So what’s happening? If I’m not hearing them in the way we think of hearing, what is it then? I can’t do much but sit here. There’s no answer. This is like a koan or something. Can you hear a thought? Where is the sound of the thought coming from? How can I stay on track with something that doesn’t exist? Like this typing and these words. What do they mean? It’s the strangest thing…this typing and these words and thoughts and talking. They are all the same form of communication but they are nothing alike. At all! How does this even work? But I still want to know…what am I hearing? Where am I hearing it? I’m not even hearing it. There’s nothing there. I feel lost. I hear something saying ‘there’s no-thought’. But I don’t hear it. What is it? I can’t find it. There’s no place to look. I can’t find it. But it’s still there (but where?). People say it’s like a radio wave…but where is it? I can’t find it. I’m stuck. It’s still going…but where???? Because I’m stuck, I feel like I’m right on the edge of something…
IT seems so clear there must not be anything there. But it’s still going even though I don’t’ know how or where.
It’s just going...

Thought: “I’m going to call my friend”. Body gets up and moves towards phone and dials number. Can a thought actually make a person do anything? No. The thought that agrees with the thought “I think I’m going to call my friend” seems to be what propels me. Can a body not have a thought like that and move towards the phone and do the action anyway? Thoughts themselves don’t do anything. They don’t really exist. It’s so odd. The body seems to respond to thoughts…I can see how the body responds to less “personal” thoughts like, “turn off the rice” or something. I do see here that thoughts don’t have to be personal …maybe the personal comes in later.
To answer the question, a thought on its own can’t do anything.

Not hearing clarity here. Let's look closer.

What we are testing is 'a thought makes the body move'.

Take your right arm.Think either 'i'm going to lift this arm'. Or 'i'm not going to lift this arm', whilst looking at the following questions. repeat as many times as needed.

Also when lying in bed in the morning shout as loudly as you can in our head 'GET UP....GET UP!' and see what the body does or doesn't do whilst looking at these questions.

Can you find and describe to me the connection between the thought and the movement, the process/mechanism that proves one causes the other, rather than just they are happening at the same time.

Which comes first- does the 'control' thought ever come AFTER the movement has started? check this, it might be quite subtle.


Also play with this. What if the 'thoughts in the head' were simply commentating and guessing. Imagine someone with a loudspeaker following you around behind talking in the first person constantly like - 'I'm going to the toilet now. I fancy a sandwich'. 'I need to go to the shop now....'.

let me know how that feels. Any different?

I do see here that thoughts don’t have to be personal …maybe the personal comes in later.

What are the criteria that can actually make some thoughts 'personal'? In what way?

Like…I have to keep worrying about all this stuff or I might miss something or just stop doing things I don’t want to do. Also, then I wouldn’t feel like I was anywhere. There would only be here. When I’ve had that experience, it’s like a surreal experience when I am only where I am sometimes. As if everything came out of nowhere and there are no roots or something. Eerie. Like driving down a big empty highway with no beginning point and no ending point.

#

Yes, these are common fear thoughts 'x.y.z will happen'- but remember this is only about seeing clearly what is already the case.

Something that wasn't really there in the first place can't get lost or be destroyed. But you have to see that it isn't there clearly to get that.

Sooo...just take another look-

then I wouldn’t feel like I was anywhere. There would only be here.

What is this I here that normally feels like it is somewhere?

Literally take your right index finger right now and point either to where it seems the self is located, or if that's not clear, where the centre of experience is located. GO!

Where dd the finger end up?

I could say no, there’s nothing that’s going on that’s not on ‘automatic’. I can see that sometimes to a point, but never completely and never for very long. It doesn’t look that way to me. Seems right and makes total sense, which isn’t seeing it, it’s just believing it (whatever that means).

Yes, good- Remember the groundrules, 100% honesty, not 'seems like', 'might be', 'is because you say so'. All that won't help anything.

So, fine- give me examples of things that are not on automatic, i.e are 'under control' and describe to me what exactly is doing the controlling so we can look at that together.

So I have a goal to see it all the time, but that goal seems like it’s in the way of me seeing it. It seems like lots of concentration and efforting again…and remembering. Is that normal?

Remember the 'is anything permanent' question- take another look at that :)
But yes, looking at life in this way to start with is unfamiliar and feels like effort. That's why you asked for a guide :) So we just keep looking together and I point out where and how to look until it becomes a natural movement. It's no problem.

It’s like a committee instead of just one.

wow, lot's of selves?
Let me ask you this. How many thoughts...are...appearing...right...now?

They seem like they could really happen as opposed to Batman or the Easter Bunny ever materializing. They seem like real future possibilities.

we will come back to this, to time/future but i've given you enough to do today!

Just as simply as possible directly answer my questions from what's found in experience right now. That's all i'm asking for.

x

Which comes first- does the 'control' thought ever come AFTER the movement has started? check this, it might be quite subtle

I have experienced this from time to time and it has always seemed surprising and sort of funny. I have had times of thinking about doing something and then all of the sudden I’m up and doing it and my thoughts are surprised. Or thinking about saying something and I just start to talk without having ‘decided’ to actually say whatever it is I’m thinking about. This is even one of thing things I was complaining about! That I can lie in bed and have stuff to do and have a running list…and just not do it…or do something different…or whatever. And I think I’m supposed to be doing whatever my mind is agenda-ing.

Also play with this. What if the 'thoughts in the head' were simply commentating and guessing. Imagine someone with a loudspeaker following you around behind talking in the first person constantly like - 'I'm going to the toilet now. I fancy a sandwich'. 'I need to go to the shop now....'.

This made me laugh. What a nightmare. How do we all walk around like this and not go stark raving mad?
I do see here that thoughts don’t have to be personal …maybe the personal comes in later.

What are the criteria that can actually make some thoughts 'personal'? In what way?

I was just talking about thoughts that express preferences, beliefs, ideas, concepts, desires, things not liked. Seems like there is some kind of visceral reaction to something and then the thought comes in with an opinion. I do see now how it seems like we’re kind of trained to like some things and not like others. When I’ve just been able to sit with ‘uncomfortable’ feelings, they are feelings and they don’t seem fun, but who says so really? I know people into ‘whips and chains’ that LOVE that…or are into other aspects of the bondage community. Maybe ‘misery’ really is fun or at the very least, neutral. I feel like I’ve been seeing that lately…that feelings and reactions are just something felt in the body somehow that we’ve labeled undesirable.
I was watching myself with my boyfriend yesterday…watching the visceral reaction to some things he said. He would just say something and I would feel like an energy burst in my gut that I would label as unpleasant…I wonder what that was about. He would say something, let’s say, that I don’t agree with… and that would happen and I was just watching without saying anything. I wasn’t seeing any thoughts, but I think they were there, and that the body was reacting to the thoughts. It was such an interesting place. I don’t know that that has ever happened before. Just the watching with him like that.
then I wouldn’t feel like I was anywhere. There would only be here.

I do see here that thoughts don't have to be personal....the personal comes in later

What is this I here that normally feels like it is somewhere?

Some endless stream of story of what’s going on and what’s happened in my life and who I am and all of that that just keeps running all day every day is what it seem
s like. If it stops long enough, everything feels sort of surreal and sort of hollow…is the best I can describe.

Literally take your right index finger right now and point either to where it seems the self is located, or if that's not clear, where the centre of experience is located. GO!
Where did the finger end up?

Pointing to my face and head. That’s what it feels like.

So, fine- give me examples of things that are not on automatic, i.e are 'under control' and describe to me what exactly is doing the controlling so we can look at that together.

I wanted to take some time with this, which is why it’s taking me a while to respond. I couldn’t find anything that’s not on automatic. There are lots of things that seem like they’re not on automatic, but when I look more closely, they are.

How many thoughts...are...appearing...right...now?

I don’t see more than one at a time, but man are they appearing fast and back to back.

Or thinking about saying something and I just start to talk without having ‘decided’ to actually say whatever it is I’m thinking about.

Is it ever that there is a process of 'deciding' what to say?
What about thoughts? Anything controlling or choosing thoughts or imagery?.

Think of a car, any car in the world, in detail. What colour, make, age is it?
Where did those words, those images of that car come from? Where do they go to? Why did that exact appear. Let me know what's found, or not found.

That I can lie in bed and have stuff to do and have a running list…and just not do it…or do something different…or whatever. And I think I’m supposed to be doing whatever my mind is agenda-ing.

Did you actually do the arm raising and get up exercises? Could you let me know exactly what was found or noticed, like a science experiment. They don't take long.

I was just talking about thoughts that express preferences, beliefs, ideas, concepts, desires, things not liked. Seems like there is some kind of visceral reaction to something and then the thought comes in with an opinion. I do see now how it seems like we’re kind of trained to like some things and not like others. When I’ve just been able to sit with ‘uncomfortable’ feelings, they are feelings

Ok, so there are some sensations, pleasant or unpleasant. Then thoughts that say 'I like this' 'This is hurting me it needs to stop... or a variation of this.

Take a look if those thoughts are telling an accurate story. Is there an 'i', a 'me' somewhere in all that, separate to the sensations that is feeling or being affected in some way by them?

Some endless stream of story of what’s going on and what’s happened in my life and who I am and all of that that just keeps running all day every day is what it seem

Ok, so you;ve stated here that this I is simply thoughts telling a story about an I? So where and what is the I it's talking about? The main protagonist in the story?

Pointing to my face and head. That’s what it feels like.

ok, now reverse engineer this a bit- what let to the finger pointing to the face/head area? Is there actually a centre there in experience? If so what is it made of? sensations? describe what's found.

I couldn’t find anything that’s not on automatic. There are lots of things that seem like they’re not on automatic, but when I look more closely, they are.

So no controlling entity found.
How does that feel to see that?

I don’t see more than one at a time, but man are they appearing fast and back to back.

Any gaps at all in the blah blah thought train?
If so what's left without it?

Is it ever that there is a process of 'deciding' what to say?
What about thoughts? Anything controlling or choosing thoughts or imagery?.

It looks to me like there’s a process of deciding whether to speak or not and what general information to share, but not exact words. It does not look to me as though thoughts or imagery are controlled…although sometimes I feel like I decide I want to daydream about something in particular, and then I do that. I do know that where to idea to do the daydream comes from seems automatic…seems like the trend is towards something that seems currently in my field of experience or has always been of interest to me. Where the interest comes from is a mystery.

Think of a car, any car in the world, in detail. What colour, make, age is it?
Where did those words, those images of that car come from? Where do they go to? Why did that exact appear. Let me know what's found, or not found.

It seemed like a choosing of the easiest thing which seemed like easiest was to think of my own car, but the decision that that was the easiest to access…not sure where that came from. That idea just showed up and sounded good somehow. Don’t know where they came from or where they go when they’re gone. What is mulling over thoughts? I see myself sitting here trying to answer your questions and ‘looking’ around in my mind for the answers. That seems weird. That feels like efforting. It’s like looking for a word to complete a sentence in the mind. It seems like there’s some effort involved in that at times. That’s different than train of thought. Nothing is any different…it just feels like a process of looking for information. Then the question comes…what is information?

Did you actually do the arm raising and get up exercises? Could you let me know exactly what was found or noticed, like a science experiment. They don't take long.

I did do these and found that thoughts can’t make the body do anything. There can be lots of thinking and words, and they don’t make the body do a thing. Thoughts have no authority over the body. That’s pretty shocking…though I don’t feel shocked. The ramifications of that seem like anarchy in a way. How do I know I’ll ever do anything? Too weird.

Ok, so there are some sensations, pleasant or unpleasant. Then thoughts that say 'I like this' 'This is hurting me it needs to stop... or a variation of this.

Take a look if those thoughts are telling an accurate story. Is there an 'i', a 'me' somewhere in all that, separate to the sensations that is feeling or being affected in some way by them?

When I’m writing to you and I look, I see there’s no ‘I’ anywhere. There’s just no such thing….but when I’m going along in daily life, that ‘I’ stuff is still on automatic. There are just the sensations that are felt. It’s pretty plain. There’s the story that’s got lightening speed that has to do with feeling hurt or offended or whatever (meaning the visceral sensation of unpleasant stirrings in the gut or wherever when someone says something that’s interpreted in a storyline including an ‘I’.) There is a forgetting of this knowing…or something.

Ok, so you;ve stated here that this I is simply thoughts telling a story about an I? So where and what is the I it's talking about? The main protagonist in the story?

Not here, as I said above. Doesn’t exist. But past experience…growing up, going to school, working, marrying, divorcing, etc. That seems like it all happened to me (this person or entity). Without commenting on the interpretations of all of those events, it seems like this body went through all of those things and here it is (for lack of a better way to see it). It seems like all of the stories I have of my parents and relatives and friends are perceptions of a non-existent ‘I’, but the story still runs and there’s still a belief or anchor in it, so to speak.
I just paused for a minute and the thought came ‘none of this is relevant’. Nothing said really means anything cause it’s just me here typing to you on this computer sitting outside on the porch and that’s all there really is. And then there’s the thought ‘what if all of that story of the life of an ‘I’ that doesn’t exist comes back? I don’t want to live from there.’ And that’s more story coming from a non-existent ‘I’. It feels like wanting to scratch an itch. I can see the futility of this questioning, but I feel like it’s not done yet. Like I’ll slip back into my old self and that it’s just blossoming, so to speak, but that I need to keep questioning.
You might be stuck with me for a while :-/

Pointing to my face and head. That’s what it feels like.

ok, now reverse engineer this a bit- what led to the finger pointing to the face/head area? Is there actually a centre there in experience? If so what is it made of? sensations? describe what's found.

Perceptions and vision come from here for me. It feels like thoughts come from this area of the body and vision and hearing and those senses seem like they make up a person. Physical sensations are the same as they are throughout the body here. My head doesn’t feel any different from my leg. It does feel like the head is the center of experience, but I don’t know why.

So no controlling entity found.
How does that feel to see that?

It’s strange and quite amazing. There really is nothing to do because there’s no one to do anything, though forgetting has happened & may still happen. Still seems vague and really easy to forget…still seems like I’m seeing through story a lot…

Any gaps at all in the blah blah thought train?
If so what's left without it?

Just this here now…whatever is here and happening is what’s left and that’s it. Clear seeing and sensing of just what’s here.

It looks to me like there’s a process of deciding whether to speak or not and what general information to share, but not exact words. It does not look to me as though thoughts or imagery are controlled…although sometimes I feel like I decide I want to daydream about something in particular, and then I do that. I do know that where to idea to do the daydream comes from seems automatic…seems like the trend is towards something that seems currently in my field of experience or has always been of interest to me. Where the interest comes from is a mystery.

I'm confused. So there is control of deciding to speak or not? Describe that process of choosing whether to speak or not and what is it that is doing the choosing.
What do you mean 'general information but not exact words'? What else is this 'information' made of if not the words? Not sure what you mean here.

Describe this 'feeling like want to daydream and then that happens. Are you 100% sure the daydreaming process hadn't already started before the thoughts commentating 'I want to...'

remember what i said about 'seems like' and 'might be'. We are looknig only for what can be verfied or found within the experience itself, not assumptions thoguths are then making about that experience. This is key.

choosing of the easiest thing which seemed like easiest was to think of my own car, but the decision that that was the easiest to access…not sure where that came from.

sounds to me that was a thought saying 'that's my car, that was the easiest'. More commentary?

Don’t know where they came from or where they go when they’re gone. What is mulling over thoughts

good question- is there anything 'mulling over thoughts?' or just thoughts appearing?

You mention a 'mind' here that is being searched around in.
It sounds from how you describe it like this mind is an object, a container with thoughts and images within it. like a big handbag you are rifling about in for an answer.
But look carefully, is that actually what is happening?
because on the other hand you are saying thoughts are just showing up, from can't tell where, gonig to can't tell where, not under control and not able to do anything.

So where does that leave this idea of a 'mind'?
What about 'subconcious'- how does that match up with the actual experience of thoughts?

did do these and found that thoughts can’t make the body do anything. There can be lots of thinking and words, and they don’t make the body do a thing. Thoughts have no authority over the body. That’s pretty shocking…though I don’t feel shocked. The ramifications of that seem like anarchy in a way. How do I know I’ll ever do anything? Too weird.

Nice.

How do you know the body will keep doing it's thing...? Well it's been doing it and responding to life perfectly well for x number of years. Why should that change?

When I’m writing to you and I look, I see there’s no ‘I’ anywhere. There’s just no such thing…

Yep. It's as shockingly simple as that.

but when I’m going along in daily life, that ‘I’ stuff is still on automatic.

So are you saying when not looking or responding to me a real 'i', and entity suddenly appears/exists?

But past experience…growing up, going to school, working, marrying, divorcing, etc. That seems like it all happened to me (this person or entity). Without commenting on the interpretations of all of those events, it seems like this body went through all of those things and here it is (for lack of a better way to see it). It seems like all of the stories I have of my parents and relatives and friends are perceptions of a non-existent ‘I’, but the story still runs and there’s still a belief or anchor in it, so to speak.

Let's look at the nature of memory closer-

Bring a strong memory to mind, say your first kiss.
As it appears tell me, what is it made of, how does it appear? Is it sensations? Images? words?
Again, is it possible to tell where that came from?

Now think of the best most affecting screen kiss you ever saw in a movie. really go to town on this.
What is that made of, how does it appear?
Any difference between the 2 able to prove right now that one is fact and really happened and the other is fiction?

And then there’s the thought ‘what if all of that story of the life of an ‘I’ that doesn’t exist comes back? I don’t want to live from there.’ And that’s more story coming from a non-existent ‘I’.

Again, why should the story/thoughts/images stop?

It feels like wanting to scratch an itch. I can see the futility of this questioning, but I feel like it’s not done yet.

That's fine. This dialogue will go on as long as it's needed.

It feels like thoughts come from this area of the body and vision and hearing and those senses seem like they make up a person.

We'll come back to this, let's concentrate on thoughts and memory at the moment till that's clear.

Hi Hannah,

I'm confused. So there is control of deciding to speak or not? Describe that process of choosing whether to speak or not and what is it that is doing the choosing.

If I’m in a conversation with someone, there’s a thought that if there’s something I feel compelled to say, I might say it or I might not. With responding to a question or something like that, that seems to be a natural flow. With responding just by talking in response to what someone has said, I might stop myself or I might talk. It seems like a thought comes in to say ‘just wait’ and if I’ve thought I was going to respond a certain way, there might be a stopping of saying anything. I might start to say something, and then just don’t because a thought stops that action, or appears to stop it. It’s on automatic to start and stop, but it looks and feels like a thought came in, gave instructions, and the body followed them. Like a thought came that stopped me from speaking, even though I know thoughts can’t control the body. This is confusing. So okay. It doesn’t look like there’s anyone choosing, but it does look like a thought comes in and gives instruction and the body follows it. I may need to look more closely on this.

What do you mean 'general information but not exact words'? What else is this 'information' made of if not the words? Not sure what you mean here.

It seems like there’s a decision to share a thought, though what I will actually say and how I will say it is unknown until I start talking. Hm…when there’s an urge to share something, it seems like a vague idea that’s not words, it’s often a feeling that wants to be shared or an idea or something non-concrete.

Describe this 'feeling like want to daydream and then that happens. Are you 100% sure the daydreaming process hadn't already started before the thoughts commentating 'I want to...'

In looking more closely, I can’t find an instance where there is a decision to daydream. It does just happen. A voice coming in and directing what I want to think about might come in and I hear a question about something that wants to be thought about…or that’s the direction the dreaming takes.

remember what i said about 'seems like' and 'might be'. We are looknig only for what can be verfied or found within the experience itself, not assumptions thoguths are then making about that experience. This is key.

Yes I understand. There is a habit of doing that. I feel like nothing is absolute and so my language has tended to always reflect that idea. That’s probably something to look at. That is just another thought, but how to let go of that? The idea of letting go of the idea of nothing being absolute leaves me hanging in a funny way, interestingly enough. It’s another idea, but wow.

You mention a 'mind' here that is being searched around in.
It sounds from how you describe it like this mind is an object, a container with thoughts and images within it. like a big handbag you are rifling about in for an answer.
But look carefully, is that actually what is happening?

That’s not what’s actually happening. I can’t say what’s actually happening. It feels like searching for something. I can’t say what that is like besides if I’m looking for something literally that I’ve lost…it’s kind of like a scrolling. Looking at an idea…though that’s not it either. I can’t name it. It’s some other kind of feeling.

because on the other hand you are saying thoughts are just showing up, from can't tell where, gonig to can't tell where, not under control and not able to do anything.

It seems that way. That maybe when I’m ‘looking’ for something in my mind, it’s more like testing out words and seeing if ‘that’s it’. It feels very effortful whatever it is. Like trying to remember something. I don’t know what that is. And yes, thoughts are just showing up, so I’m not sure what the efforting is about. It feels like confusion trying to sort itself out and respond to something. So whatever that is maybe isn’t necessary? If I’m ‘trying’ to think of a word and it just won’t come, whatever that is that I feel like I’m doing. It’s more like scratching a cliff side grasping for a branch trying to make sure I don’t fall. I can tell because it’s happening right now. Like ‘finding’ my identity when I wake up in the morning.

So where does that leave this idea of a 'mind'?

I don’t know. The idea of a mind is just that, an idea. You know Hannah, I feel like I’ve been working hard at this conversation we’re having sometimes. Like I have to really work hard for my answers. It’s weird. I don’t understand it. Like you ask me something and it’s an incredible brain twister and I contort myself to answer it…but not really…I just look hard to come up with answers…but it seems so hard! What on earth is going on? Like the answer I just gave you that a mind is an idea is actually an idea I didn’t work hard to find. It was like I gave up and took the first answer that just came just now to answer the mind question. But it feels like a rote answer and not much investigation. You want me to look, but I just see what I see when I see it. Like…the mind is honestly just an idea…but when I say it, it doesn’t feel like a deep belief. It just feels like that’s what’s there to say. Does this make any sense? I want to say…I don’t know if I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing…but I guess I must be if that’s what I’m doing. Eek.
To answer after looking….I don’t know what a mind is. It’s an idea. A concept of the brain, but not the brain. The mind is where all the thoughts come through…but all of that is actually non-existent. It’s like Santa Claus. Good grief. I feel unhinged. It’s just a story…like ‘I’ and like all other thoughts. I can say that and see it, but the automatic-ness of buying into it is still there.

What about 'subconcious'- how does that match up with the actual experience of thoughts?

I don’t know about this either. I have often felt the subconscious is made up too. It seems like part of the same story to me. Like expanding the Santa Claus story to include reindeer, the North Pole and the rest of it. It’s fun to pretend, but it doesn’t really hold up. It’s like a math problem to solve the universe. It’s fun for some people but it doesn’t really mean anything. So weird to bother with it, but it’s what we do. It’s just not standing on anything.

but when I’m going along in daily life, that ‘I’ stuff is still on automatic.

So are you saying when not looking or responding to me a real 'i', and entity suddenly appears/exists?

No…just that I still feel like there’s an owner here. I can say this stuff and it makes sense to me, and it still feels like there’s a disconnect between what I’ve seen and how it affects my view of life…most of the time…maybe not all the time…much less than it used to.

Let's look at the nature of memory closer-

Bring a strong memory to mind, say your first kiss.
As it appears tell me, what is it made of, how does it appear? Is it sensations? Images? words?
Again, is it possible to tell where that came from?

Now think of the best most affecting screen kiss you ever saw in a movie. really go to town on this.
What is that made of, how does it appear?
Any difference between the 2 able to prove right now that one is fact and really happened and the other is fiction?

Nope. No way to see or prove that. Just like not knowing the difference between something I dreamt and something that actually happened. Memory looks the same. And I know memories can totally lie…it’s hard to believe it (or seems hard to me), but they can. It’s super weird to me how they can be whatever. Of course though, I have a tough time believe my memories can be inaccurate, but I’ve seen that be true.

And then there’s the thought ‘what if all of that story of the life of an ‘I’ that doesn’t exist comes back? I don’t want to live from there.’ And that’s more story coming from a non-existent ‘I’.

Again, why should the story/thoughts/images stop?

I don’t think they should stop. I would just like to be able to see the gap or just ‘be’ without buying them hook, line and sinker, like I talked about them as background music. They are just there but don’t mean anything. Don’t affect anything because they aren’t reality. Don’t affect me, so to speak.

I was just thinking further about this and thinking about a character in a movie. I’m very emotional with movies and really get into them, and so even if there was a seeing of the ‘I’ as a character in a story, the emotion still might exist. To see that the whole thing is just a story…I’m seeing now…might not actually provide relief.
But I did have an extremely rare, if not completely new experience the other day. I went to the movies and didn’t get emotional. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, but for the first time in my life it seems, I didn’t cry…the emotion just wasn’t there. It was the strangest thing.

Hi Hannah,
Something else just came to me too. In terms of answering anything absolutely here...reality is ever-changing and bottomless, I see, so how can I ever examine and know anything for sure? That's like the law of 'nothing is absolute' except I'm seeing I did actually assume a bunch of things. I can't even say 'nothing is absolute'. I can't say anything.

So okay. It doesn’t look like there’s anyone choosing, but it does look like a thought comes in and gives instruction and the body follows it. I may need to look more closely on this.

yep. Do that and see what's found.
Look for the mechanism/process that links in any way and makes the body act, rather than just the thought and corresponding action appearing at a similar time.

though what I will actually say and how I will say it is unknown until I start talking

Yep. So where does that leave the above idea?

Try this, open a word document and start typing. anything, keep typing, whilst the letters and words come out, look for:
anything choosing the letters/words that appear on the screen.
Anything making the fingers move in that intricate pattern over the keyboard tapping those letters out.

What's found?

I can’t find an instance where there is a decision to daydream. It does just happen.

ok.

That is just another thought, but how to let go of that?

What could let go of thoughts? Is that the same as making them stop happening?

And yes, thoughts are just showing up, so I’m not sure what the efforting is about.

Compare 'efforting' to 'effortless'.
Particularly, what visceral sensations are present when thoughts are labelled 'efforting' compared to 'effortless'?

I feel like I’ve been working hard at this conversation we’re having sometimes. Like I have to really work hard for my answers. It’s weird. I don’t understand it. Like you ask me something and it’s an incredible brain twister and I contort myself to answer it…but not really…I just look hard to come up with answers…but it seems so hard! What on earth is going on? Like the answer I just gave you that a mind is an idea is actually an idea I didn’t work hard to find. It was like I gave up and took the first answer that just came just now to answer the mind question.

Yes. Just give up... and give me the first, gut response, most ridiculously simple answers.
As in, just get up and look for the lost house keys rather than keeping trying to analyse where they might or 'seem to' be ;)

If analysis, if pondering, thinking it through, had ever resolved this stuff, you wouldn't be here.
We are not looking to the content of thoughts for the answer. thoughts are a reflection of the answer found in the experience itself.

I don’t know what a mind is. It’s an idea.

yes. Is there actually any experience of mind, or brain right now?

I have often felt the subconscious is made up too. It seems like part of the same story to me

Yes. It's a story to try and explain where thoughts and images come from.

But again, any experience of a subconcious right now?

No…just that I still feel like there’s an owner here.

An owner of what? the body? Life?
What is this owner made of? where is it located? Describe this owner to me as it is appearing right now.

Nope. No way to see or prove that.

Yep. So on that basis can they prove the existence of a separate self any more than a picture of Santa claus proves he exists?

They are just there but don’t mean anything. Don’t affect anything because they aren’t reality. Don’t affect me, so to speak.

What are thoughts affecting now?
What is this me they are affecting right now?

I’m very emotional with movies and really get into them, and so even if there was a seeing of the ‘I’ as a character in a story, the emotion still might exist.

Yes. But even when you really get in to a movie, does it ever get 100% real, or is it always known it's a movie, no matter what emotional reactions arise or how intense they are?

In terms of answering anything absolutely here

I'm not asking for an absolute answer. I'm not asking you to find me some exhalted 'truth'.

I'm only asking for as honest an answer as is possible in that moment about what's found in experience, compared to what is found in images/thoughts/words only.

That's all.

xx

Look for the mechanism/process that links in any way and makes the body act, rather than just the thought and corresponding action appearing at a similar time.

The body does what it needs to do when it’s time. That’s what I got. It just does what’s next and what’s there. I was sitting here seeing the body move and reposition and it just did that when something showed up for it to do that…like discomfort or a feeling of needing to readjust. If there’s an itch, hand scratches it. It just does…moment by moment, so to speak.

though what I will actually say and how I will say it is unknown until I start talking

Yep. So where does that leave the above idea?

Again, the body does what’s needed when it’s time. Including talking. Ah…even if it seems like ‘I’m’ choosing. It will speak or not speak when it just does!
It’s unknown what’s making this happen. It’s just happening. Going forward with what was asked of me because it was asked and I’m compelled to do it because I just am. This is the typing that is coming from nowhere. It’s just flowing from nowhere. I see that.

What could let go of thoughts? Is that the same as making them stop happening?

‘Letting go’ gives the impression of an idea that there’s something being held on to. That’s not possible if there’s nobody there. I see that. It’s another story.

Compare 'efforting' to 'effortless'.
Particularly, what visceral sensations are present when thoughts are labelled 'efforting' compared to 'effortless'?

Efforting feels like seeking. I can’t find a visceral sensation besides preoccupation, and that’s not visceral either. It’s where attention is. It’s like the sensation of being distracted…hmm…maybe a sense of tension. A tightness in the head, a little unrest in the gut. As soon as attention goes to visceral sensations, attention changes and that feeling isn’t really there. It’s almost as though both of those things can’t exist at the same time, although I do know.

If analysis, if pondering, thinking it through, had ever resolved this stuff, you wouldn't be here.
We are not looking to the content of thoughts for the answer. thoughts are a reflection of the answer found in the experience itself.

Ha ha. Yeah. I actually understand this. Can’t find the answer in thoughts. They are like a side result. It’s like the clucking I was referring to. They don’t mean anything. So trippy. Then it’s like, well why am I doing all of this yackity yacking? But I like it…or something. It feels right to do when it happens. Except when it doesn’t ;) Swirling…

Is there actually any experience of mind, or brain right now?

Nope.

But again, any experience of a subconcious right now?

No. How can there be any experience of something that doesn’t exist?…..hey wait a minute….how can there be? I’m experiencing a lot of stuff that doesn’t exist…or am I? No I’m not. Oh boy  Imagination…or something???? Weirdness for sure. No…because imagination doesn’t exist either. Not here. Oh boy.

An owner of what? the body? Life?
What is this owner made of? where is it located? Describe this owner to me as it is appearing right now.

There’s no owner here. There’s experience. That’s it. Wha???? That’s all that’s here. Okay…honestly….feels like experiencer. Not owner, but experiencer. The body. Moving around from experience to experience.
I am visiting family now. There was a watching of the conversation and a remembering of the ‘nothingness’ of conversation, so I was just there and watching the back and forth. Noticing the automatic. Is that possible…to notice it like an outsider? Or…what is that? I have to say there was a feeling of less investment or something. Because it was just conversation. Although it did feel like it was about real stuff that was really happening in another family member’s life. But then it’s like, not really because they weren’t happening right then and there. But what about other people? Their lives and suffering? My mom was telling me how hard things are for my cousin right now in her life…daily difficulties with lots of challenges. It’s a story I know, but it seems like my cousin is actually experiencing what my mom was saying.
Wait…none of this matters because it’s all still story. But she may be living it because she doesn’t realize that it’s just story. Or not. Who knows? Is that how it boils down? It’s just what’s here now.

So on that basis can they prove the existence of a separate self any more than a picture of Santa claus proves he exists?

On what basis can memories prove the existence of a separate self? They can’t. They are just ideas. They can’t prove anything. Actually, when looking closely, nothing can prove anything. Because everything is built on nothing. So crazy, but that’s what I see. Everything is what it is as it’s seen or sensed, but talking is just clucking and based on nothing. Wow.

What are thoughts affecting now?
What is this me they are affecting right now?

They aren’t affecting anything. They ARE just there. There’s no me. What’s a ‘me’ anyway?
But even when you really get in to a movie, does it ever get 100% real, or is it always known it's a movie, no matter what emotional reactions arise or how intense they are?
I don’t know. That’s kind of a weird question for me. What’s real and what’s not real? The movie is real when I’m watching it. I’m lost. There’s just movie.

I'm not asking for an absolute answer. I'm not asking you to find me some exhalted 'truth'.

I'm only asking for as honest an answer as is possible in that moment about what's found in experience, compared to what is found in images/thoughts/words only.

That's all.

When I read this, I have to say, seems like there’s a seeing that it’s only really possible to see this over and over. Test it constantly or just see it constantly. It’s impossible to find an exalted truth…can’t exist if there’s really nothing. It’s only what’s seen.
No efforting this time. Just went with what was there. No twisting or contorting. Seems obvious to me ;)

The body does what it needs to do when it’s time. That’s what I got. It just does what’s next and what’s there.

Nice. How cool is that! :)

Including talking. Ah…even if it seems like ‘I’m’ choosing. It will speak or not speak when it just does!
It’s unknown what’s making this happen. It’s just happening. Going forward with what was asked of me because it was asked and I’m compelled to do it because I just am. This is the typing that is coming from nowhere. It’s just flowing from nowhere. I see that.

Yep. Lovely.

It’s like the sensation of being distracted…hmm…maybe a sense of tension. A tightness in the head, a little unrest in the gut.

Well done. See how tricky sometimes it can be to catch the mechanism of what's going on.

Keep checking this 'hypothesis'-

that the only difference between something being labelled 'effort' and 'effortless' is in the former there are some unpleasant sensations of tension in the body that aren't there in 'effortless'.
Let me know if that works as a description.

How can there be any experience of something that doesn’t exist?…..hey wait a minute….how can there be? I’m experiencing a lot of stuff that doesn’t exist…or am I? No I’m not. Oh boy  Imagination…or something???? Weirdness for sure. No…because imagination doesn’t exist either. Not here. Oh boy.

Let's not get caught up in pondering over 'real' 'unreal' 'exists' 'doesn't exist'.

This is the basis of this dialogue-
Imagination= thoughts i.e words and images appearing
Experience= what's going on in raw sensory experience (sounds tastes sensations colours shapes and smells)

Take a piece of fruit- put in front of you on the table. Now close your eyes and imagine the fruit, the colour, the size shape, and the taste when you bite it. really go to town on that.
Now open your eyes and experience the fruit. Pick it up and bite and taste it.

Tell me what you notice about imagination vs experience.

Okay…honestly….feels like experiencer. Not owner, but experiencer. The body. Moving around from experience to experience.

Ok, thank you for the honesty here. Let's look closer and keep giving me the first gut response, even if it doesn't 'fit' with the no-self stuff.

This experiencer. Is it the body in total, a part of the body, or located somewhere inside the body?
Where and what is the boundary between this experiencer vs what is being experienced?

Take one sense at a time- let's start with hearing.

Put on some music, preferably music without too many lyrics you haven't heard before.
Close your eyes and look carefully at these questions.

Is there an experiencer i.e a 'hearer' of the music?
Is there in experience 2 distinct things going on, the experience (sounds) and something separate to those sounds hearing that?

Give me as much detail on that as possible.

But what about other people? Their lives and suffering?

We'll come back to this. It's a valid question.
but its related to this-

On what basis can memories prove the existence of a separate self? They can’t. They are just ideas.

So when your mum/ cousin are talking about 'my life' 'my suffering' 'my pain' etc...
look into it the same way as you are looking at thoughts about 'my life, my suffering, my pain' at the moment.
Where and what is the I they are referring to in their thoughts? Just the same as the thoughts about Lury? any difference?

They aren’t affecting anything. They ARE just there. There’s no me. What’s a ‘me’ anyway?

Indeed. What are those thoughts even referring to? :)

When I read this, I have to say, seems like there’s a seeing that it’s only really possible to see this over and over. Test it constantly or just see it constantly. It’s impossible to find an exalted truth…can’t exist if there’s really nothing. It’s only what’s seen.
No efforting this time. Just went with what was there. No twisting or contorting. Seems obvious to me ;)

Lovely.

Let's get clear on this experiencer stuff now.
Things are unfolding just fine here.

xx