The Gate

Please introduce yourself here:

Hello, my name is Ben and i am a 47 year old graphic designer, father and spiritual seeker from hamburg in Hello, my name is Ben and i am a 47 year old graphic designer, father and spiritual seeker from hamburg in germany.
-What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?

I have always, i mean realy always been a spiritual seeker. Yoga, philosophy, mindfulness meditation and lots of thinking about "circumstance independent happiness" were always part of my life. In the video "In der Sinnlosigkeit liegt die Freiheit: Tom spricht mit Teresa Arrieta" Tom mentioned the site and that's how i learned about it.

-What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

I read books from and about Ramana Maharshi, Poonja Ji, Ramesh Balsekar and many buddhist writers like Shinzen Young. The "Ideas" of Nondualism which of course are'nt ideas and no "ism" either strongly resonate with me. I some how realy believe, that that's the way things are but i haven't realy geniunly experienced it my self. Some how at the moment i feel like i am close to something.

-What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?

I just have to keep exploring and i hope to actualy see the truth my self (allthough apperently there is no self :-)) . Even though many teachers say, there is no way to get anywhere, i feel like something pulls me in that direction. So let's see what happens.

Ben

Hey Ben,

My name is Cody and I would be happy to be your guide if that's okay with you.

Best,
Cody

Hi Cody,
Sounds great, that was fast. I'm definatly okay with you being my guide. I look forward to hearing from you.
Ben

Hey Ben,

Awesome :). Just a few technical things to get out of the way. After reading you can continue with my writing below.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
2. In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
3. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
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I'll start off by saying that the way I guide is based on the premise of looking at our experience with fresh eyes. No assumptions. Not even that there is a self or no self. So what we are most interested in is what our actual experience has to show us, not what we think about this process.

Though I may address other things in our dialogue... everything will always revolve and come back to "Is there or Is there not a self." The main concern is seeing if we can actually find one in our experience.

At LU we call it Direct Experience. "DE" consists of our senses. Seeing, Hearing, Tasting, Touching, Smelling. And possibly we can add feeling into that. The priority though are those 5 senses.

So we will just get right to it.

Can a self be found in experience?

It can help to take each sense individually and really look at them. Is there self in seeing?
Is there a self in hearing?
Is there a self in smelling?
etc...

Let me know if there is any confusion and I will do my best to clear it up.

best,
cody

Hello Cody,
Thank you so much. I agree with everything. Okay lets start. Your question is:

Can a self be found in experience?

In my experience there is no self in seeing, hearing, and sensual perception in general. Its more like the senses are windows in the control room of the self. It definatly feels like there is somebody that is seeing, hearing and feeling.
What feels most like a self is thinking. There seem to be different kinds of thinking. First the thinking that just happens that unvoluntarily appears and vanishes so to speak. But there is allso an inner commenting of events, perceptions and thoughts - that definatly feels like a self. Like when i inwardly talk to my self to sum up and evaluate, what the senses come up with. That kind of thinking is what i experience as me.

Allso a very important point is what i feel in the chest/heart area. Feelings of fear and anxiety are something that directly threatens "ME" It it the self that is suffering, that is sad and that is afraid it seems. That's obviously different from for example sensations of the skin.

So at the moment the intellectual concept of no self makes total sense to me but in my experience there is a solid "no doubt about it" kind of self.

best

Ben

Like when i inwardly talk to my self to sum up and evaluate, what the senses come up with. That kind of thinking is what i experience as me.

But where in experience is the entity called "me" during that process?

Also a very important point is what i feel in the chest/heart area. Feelings of fear and anxiety are something that directly threatens "ME" It it the self that is suffering, that is sad and that is afraid it seems.

Right. A helpful thing to do, just to start is give that feeling of fear attention. It's okay to let it be there. It really does not need to go anywhere. What is it actually protecting? Is it protecting anything "real"? Where is the me that it's supposedly protecting?

So at the moment the intellectual concept of no self makes total sense to me but in my experience there is a solid "no doubt about it" kind of self.

Really really really look into your experience and find this solid entity called a "self". Where is it? Is it anywhere but in thought?

I am stuck. Starring at the self all the time got me in a state where i can't really tell, what it is, that i' m looking for. It's like when your repeating a word over and over until it loses its meaning and a weird sound is all that's left. In one moment it feels like i'm onto something and in the next i'm totaly lost. For now i just keep investigating where the "i" is. What ever "where means in this context."

I am stuck

What I'm getting you to look at is what we're referring to when we say "I am stuck" or "I am hot" etc...

The "I" that we refer to is a thought. It's a mental process. If it is "real" we should be able to find it in our reality. Our experience right now, which is the five senses.

If it cannot be found in experience and is only in thought/thinking it's imaginary. Like Santa Claus. The thought doesn't disappear it's just seen to be purely made up, pure imagination.

I'm chewing on this all day but i don't get it. It seems clear that the self is some kind of holographic image set up just by thoughts that doesnt have any actual reality to it. But obviously thats not the kind of clarity that we're looking for here. It's like "Well yeah, that's an interesting thougt. There is no self, but so what". It makes perfect sense, but i don't feel it.

And there are the expectations i have, thinking of "LIberation" or "Waking up" or what ever you want to call it. Mine mainly have to do with relief from all the weight i carry around. I'm just tiered of hearing my mind struggeling, nagging and worrying all day. I'm really desperate to find a little peace. (who is desperate?) Ok, let's put it that way: There is a feeling of desperation and longing to find peace.

All i can do at the moment is brooding over the question, if i can find a self some where. Do you have a tip how i can look deeper into that question?

I'm chewing on this all day but i don't get it

You see, the joke is that the "I" that doesn't get it IS the illusion. That is the "phantom" self.

Before I give you a tip to looking deeper I'll share this with you.

Basically if we were put it into words. The identification that is occurring with this "I" is saying: I am the thought I.

If I were to ask you the question: "If you had to put all your cards on the table. Go all in. All Or Nothing. Would you say that all you are just a thought, "I"?

What would your answer be? Yes or No?

And maybe we could establish this together, what do we consider real?

It's our experience right? The five senses?

And there are the expectations i have, thinking of "LIberation" or "Waking up"

Again, the basis of the entire expectation of waking up is probably "I am going to wake up". Where exactly is the I? The illusion is that there is an "I" that is going to wake up. We are here together to see in our own experience that it is only a thought.

As far as your mind struggling I'd invite you to look into your own experience right now. Find the me that owns it & discover that "you" do not own the mind. It's just busy, that's it. It's not personal.

All i can do at the moment is brooding over the question, if i can find a self some where. Do you have a tip how i can look deeper into that question?

The only way I know how to look deeper is to put all your attention and focus on this moment right now. Look absolutely everywhere for it. Look into the senses. Into what you consider the body. look into the emotions. Is it found anywhere?

Can a "self" or "I" be found is a yes or no question. Maybe's do not suffice. Kind of's do not suffice. It is either findable in our direct experience or it isn't. Thats the bottom line.

Best,
Cody

Who is it, that is looking for the "I" and what is it looking for. You see there is a lot of confusion. The moment i am starting to investigate, if there is a "Me", i lose track, of what i am looking for. The problem is: On a certain level it is crystal clear, that there is no me. When I am unconcious i'm not there. But that does'nt feel like a very profound insight. It feels abstract somehow. Obviously that's not, what we are looking for here.

I have moments though, where eveything gets blurry and the borders seem to dissolve. Thats when it feels like "i am onto something".

I have a practical question here: Yesterday i sat in my armchair doing nothing for about an hour and tried to concentrate on the sensation (thought) of "I". It was a plesant experience - better than watching tv or surfing the internet but in a strange way i didn't know how to tackle it. It seems like I simply don't really understand how (and what for) to "look". The classic Ramana type question ("Who am I") for shure isn`t ment to be repeatet literaly for hours, is it?. But how is it done?

Sorry for maybe asking Stuff, you have already answered :).

Best,
Ben

Who is it, that is looking for the "I" and what is it looking for

This is very difficult to put into words on a forum like this, but I will try. What you 'actually are' is looking into experience. You 're obviously here right now, right? That's reality.

The catch is, there kind of has been a case of mistaken identity. You have mistaken yourself for a thought. Specifically the story of "I", "me", "mine", "myself". Instead of being seen as tools for navigating life they are taken to be the totality of what you are, which it is not.

The other catch is, what is here is not a self. So we are looking together in direct experience to discover this. That while we are so obviously here, there actually is not a solid self here.

That is why I am so relentless with you about questioning the "I" thought because it is not you. It really has nothing to do with you. However, me telling you that does no good. Only seeing it in experience will do it.

for about an hour and tried to concentrate on the sensation (thought) of "I"

You're so close here. You noted something significant. It's the thought of I.

Again, I will put it this way for you. If I were to ask you the question: "If you had to put all your cards on the table. Go all in. All Or Nothing. Would you say that all you are just a thought, "I"?

I bet you would say Hell No. It just doesn't feel adequate, does it? It's because it isn't. It's because you aren't a thought.

The question of Ramana "Who am I" isn't supposed to reveal anything except there is no I. There is only Self. BUT you see, Self is another word. And you aren't a word. That is why they all say 'you' cannot get this through thought. It has nothing to do with thought.

I'll give you a hint here. Who is it exactly that is asking the question "Who Am I"? ;)

We are getting a little off track though....

It's important to look into your own experience right now and check if there is a self or not. Ramana will not help you here.

Cody

Hi Cody,

i'm very busy today. So just one short never the less important question:

That is why they all say 'you' cannot get this through thought. It has nothing to do with thought.

So that means that investigating the "I" or looking deep for a self – how ever we want to call, what we're doing here has nothing to do with thinking. That's very important for me because i frequently drift off into thinking about the whole thing. If that's the case there is only looking or experience left. That's like meditation pretty much isn't it? The object is the entirety of my experience (including rising and fading thoughts). I'm still struggeling with the process you see.

greetings Ben

Ben,

So that means that investigating the "I" or looking deep for a self – how ever we want to call, what we're doing here has nothing to do with thinking.

Yep :) It has zero to do with thinking.

Check this out this haha. This "I" thought. "me" thought. IS thinking. Are you starting to catch on what I'm pointing you towards? This isn't going to be seen through thinking.

So if direct experience is payed more attention to than thinking where is this "you". Is there or is there not one?

Best,
Cody

Today i don't have anything to say. It's like i know everything that there is to know and allso know nothing at all. I really really hope that i get a glimps some time.