The Gate

Hi

I would like to take up the opportunity of realising the Truth if someone is willing to show me.

A bit of background, I’ve been searching for a good 20 to 25 years. Been through 2 of the 3 monotheistic religions (I was Christian and then a Muslim), have always been interested in eastern philosophy and there was a break in my search between Christianity and Islam where I was reading a lot of Eastern philosophy but it was clouded with dogma and not as direct a nonduality and Advaita Vedanta.

Came across Eckhart Tolle by accident on the net a few years ago. Bought his book, the power of now and was blown away by how spot on he is – not just from a spiritual point of view but from a psychological point of view. That opened the door for me to a vast number of non-dual teachers such as Nissargadatta, Ramana, U.G., Mooji, Papaji, etc. etc.

I’ve also had an interest in Quantum Physics and after reading some of the non-dual texts, it was clear that they were on to something. For me it is as though Science and Eastern Philosophy are converging , now more than ever. Thinking about the monotheistic texts, there are definite non-dual “truths” in them that I think the people of the time missed/mis-understood and unfortunately today they are so clouded with culture and supposition to the point that they have lost their true meaning and message.

I’ve subsequently moved away from monotheism and really feel that non-duality is the truth that explains who and what we are and what everything is/isn’t. I would like to end this long search and live a peaceful life and hopefully someone here can help me with this…

In terms of what stage I’m at, I can clearly see that thoughts just happen and don’t require a “me” to think them BUT at the same time I can create them at will. I.e. I can think/plan what I need to do the next day, etc. From an intellectual point of view I understand that there is no separate self and it makes perfect sense to me, HOWEVER, I’m not convinced as there is still a possibility that we are separate souls and that it is our soul that all experience via the senses report back to. Or that we are just another aspect of mind/brain that is able to watch thoughts and feel sensations.

In terms of timelines I live in South Africa (UTC+2) if that helps with anything.

In terms of house-keeping, I’ve read the disclaimer and forum rules as well as the App, the audio version and I’ve read a bit of the ebook.

Looking forward to it.

Thanks
Bryan

Hey Bryan
I'm Sarah and Id be happy to guide you. I'm in England!
You have looked around the site and you know what we do?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Again Bryan
There are a few house keeping and standard ground rules I need you to confirm before we start, just in case you haven't already seen them all!

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.
OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah

Thank you for agreeing to help me.

I have read the articles you referenced and I have read and agree to the disclaimer.

Ready when you are. ;)

Hi Bryan
Thanks for that. OK then!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

When I ask myself this question in the moment, I assume the role of awareness (i.e. experiencing/perceiving the bodily sensations and thought). If I think about times when I have caught myself lost in an activity then it almost feels like there was no self and that the body was on auto-pilot. An example would be driving while “lost” in thought and then arriving at my destination thinking how did I get here?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

It feels like it’s inside the body - in the space that my head occupies. Probably because seeing and hearing take place here? It does feel like it is in the centre of experience. It doesn’t feel solid or thick and when I am aware of what I’m doing then it does feel fixed/permanent but that is not always true – see example above of driving. There is no colour/shape/texture/size. In terms of ownership of the body and thoughts, I have previously confirmed that I am not ALWAYS the owner/creator of thoughts – most of the time they seem to occur almost randomly or in response to something experienced or to a previous thought BUT at the same time I own them in the sense that I feel that I can create them at will – e.g. I can choose right now to think about a pink elephant.

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

When I read this I can only agree that all of these things make up the sense of me. In terms of where a decision is required, i.e. deciding, choosing, acting, controlling etc. then I would say that most of the time I am consciously doing that.

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

I cannot pinpoint it exactly but it does seem to be predominantly in the head space until a physical sensation is felt, then there is a feeling in that part of the body (which doesn’t feel like it is happening in my head even though I know that it is being felt in the brain). So to average it out I would have to say that I cannot pinpoint a specific location but that it feels localised to the body – I.e. I don’t experience anything that other people/animals/life forms are experiencing.

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

No

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?

In the now moment, everything seems permanent, but at time flows, nothing is permanent except for my awareness or sense that I exist or I am aware. But even that is not true because I seem to lose that awareness in deep sleep.

Regards
Bryan

Hey Bryan

When I ask myself this question in the moment, I assume the role of awareness (i.e. experiencing/perceiving the bodily sensations and thought). If I think about times when I have caught myself lost in an activity then it almost feels like there was no self and that the body was on auto-pilot. An example would be driving while “lost” in thought and then arriving at my destination thinking how did I get here?

Wonderful. How often is autopilot experienced? Roughly! Have a look through your day – do tasks still get done even if thoughts are elsewhere?

I have previously confirmed that I am not ALWAYS the owner/creator of thoughts – most of the time they seem to occur almost randomly or in response to something experienced or to a previous thought BUT at the same time I own them in the sense that I feel that I can create them at will – e.g. I can choose right now to think about a pink elephant.

Do you bring thoughts? How do you create a thought? Do you send them away?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Do you plan what thought you are going to have before you have it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Try to suppress your next thought before it arises. Does it work?

When I read this I can only agree that all of these things make up the sense of me. In terms of where a decision is required, i.e. deciding, choosing, acting, controlling etc. then I would say that most of the time I am consciously doing that.

Do you decide to like ice cream or not? Do you decide to like tea or coffee or not? Think of a lift with a voice telling you what floor you are on. The voice accompanies the lift but doesn’t drive it. Now watch next time the hand reaches for clothes in the morning have a really good look at the process – is it autopilot? Are thoughts accompanying deciding? Are they before? During? After? What do you notice?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah
Hope you're having a great day.

When I ask myself this question in the moment, I assume the role of awareness (i.e. experiencing/perceiving the bodily sensations and thought). If I think about times when I have caught myself lost in an activity then it almost feels like there was no self and that the body was on auto-pilot. An example would be driving while “lost” in thought and then arriving at my destination thinking how did I get here?

Wonderful. How often is autopilot experienced? Roughly! Have a look through your day – do tasks still get done even if thoughts are elsewhere?

I would say 50 to 75% of the time. Yes tasks still get done.

I have previously confirmed that I am not ALWAYS the owner/creator of thoughts – most of the time they seem to occur almost randomly or in response to something experienced or to a previous thought BUT at the same time I own them in the sense that I feel that I can create them at will – e.g. I can choose right now to think about a pink elephant.

Do you bring thoughts? How do you create a thought? Do you send them away?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Do you plan what thought you are going to have before you have it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Try to suppress your next thought before it arises. Does it work?

I don't bring them. I can't explain how I create them but that doesn't mean I don't. Sometimes I send them away by cutting them off. I don't know what I'm going to think next only as it happens. I don't plan thoughts I just think them. I can't predict thoughts but seem to be able to suppress them for a while but not long.

When I read this I can only agree that all of these things make up the sense of me. In terms of where a decision is required, i.e. deciding, choosing, acting, controlling etc. then I would say that most of the time I am consciously doing that.

Do you decide to like ice cream or not? Do you decide to like tea or coffee or not? Think of a lift with a voice telling you what floor you are on. The voice accompanies the lift but doesn’t drive it. Now watch next time the hand reaches for clothes in the morning have a really good look at the process – is it autopilot? Are thoughts accompanying deciding? Are they before? During? After? What do you notice?

There are some things I like or dislike immediately and others i will think a bit and then decide whether i like them or not. In terms of when thoughts happen when deciding, they seem to happen during because they are the decision themselves if that makes sense. in terms of a decision that requires a physical action they happen prior to or at the same time as the action.

Regards
Bryan

Hey Bryan

I don't bring them. I can't explain how I create them but that doesn't mean I don't.

Quite right – so look. Do you experience creating them? Do you experience a thought before it materializes? Can you see where they come from?

Sometimes I send them away by cutting them off.

Can you explain in a bit more detail please? How do you cut them off?

I don't know what I'm going to think next only as it happens. I don't plan thoughts I just think them. I can't predict thoughts but seem to be able to suppress them for a while but not long.

Can a thought think? What power do thoughts have? What exactly can they do?

There are some things I like or dislike immediately and others i will think a bit and then decide whether i like them or not. In terms of when thoughts happen when deciding, they seem to happen during because they are the decision themselves if that makes sense.

So the decision makes itself rather than a ‘you’ making them?

in terms of a decision that requires a physical action they happen prior to or at the same time as the action.

Every time? Are there any instances when the action happened before thought? Re answer above – where thoughts are elsewhere but tasks still get done. Do ‘you’ control doing?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah

Busy day today. Will try post a reply tomorrow.

Regards
Bryan

Thanks for letting me now Bryan
S xxx

I don't bring them. I can't explain how I create them but that doesn't mean I don't.

Quite right – so look. Do you experience creating them? Do you experience a thought before it materializes? Can you see where they come from?

If I use my mind to intentionally solve a problem or make a decision then there does seem like there is something (me) intentionally creating the thoughts but most of the time there is no experience of creating them. I don't ever experience thoughts before they materialize. I've tried to look where they come from and cannot find a location or source. They just seem to materialize out of nothing.

Sometimes I send them away by cutting them off.

Can you explain in a bit more detail please? How do you cut them off?

An example to explain this would be where I catch myself thinking a negative thought and before it finishes, I make an intention to stop it and it just stops. Can't really explain how I do it. It's like trying to explain how you close your fist - you just have the intention to do it and it happens.

I don't know what I'm going to think next only as it happens. I don't plan thoughts I just think them. I can't predict thoughts but seem to be able to suppress them for a while but not long.

Can a thought think? What power do thoughts have? What exactly can they do?

I've never experienced a thought thinking. Thoughts have the power to control the body and trigger emotions and I think that they are powerful enough to "attract" things in your life (aka power of the mind, mind power, etc. I've experienced this in my life on a number of occasions. I've always got what I've really wanted).

There are some things I like or dislike immediately and others i will think a bit and then decide whether i like them or not. In terms of when thoughts happen when deciding, they seem to happen during because they are the decision themselves if that makes sense.

So the decision makes itself rather than a ‘you’ making them?

I can't see that clearly enough to say that the decision makes itself. At the moment it still seems like there is a me that makes the decision via thinking. I.e. I intentionally think (and create associated thoughts) about the problem/decision to be made and then come to a conclusion where I make a decision and then cause the body to act out the decision.

in terms of a decision that requires a physical action they happen prior to or at the same time as the action.

Every time? Are there any instances when the action happened before thought? Re answer above – where thoughts are elsewhere but tasks still get done. Do ‘you’ control doing?

Definitely not every time - there are many "arbitrary" decision that need to be made quickly and those seem to be automatic. I seem to control 'intentional doing' but 90% of doing happens on auto pilot.

Hi Bryan
Apologies – I had an impromptu visit to the seaside yesterday – so didn’t post!

If I use my mind to intentionally solve a problem or make a decision then there does seem like there is something (me) intentionally creating the thoughts but most of the time there is no experience of creating them.

OK – really explore this. ‘Is’ or ‘seem’. Go to the actually experience of it. It may take some time to actually notice it, but keep looking. Can you catch that point where there is a ‘you’ making a decision? Or like the lift voice – is the thought just along for the ride whilst the decision just happens?

An example to explain this would be where I catch myself thinking a negative thought and before it finishes, I make an intention to stop it and it just stops. Can't really explain how I do it. It's like trying to explain how you close your fist - you just have the intention to do it and it happens.

So again – is this ‘is’ or ‘seem’? Do the negative thoughts reappear? What is ‘negative’? Is that a thought about a thought? Is that a story about a thought? Is that based on a thought wanting something other than what is? Track down and find the one who ‘stops thought’. Is it a ‘me’ or is it a ‘thought’ that says Ive stopped thought?

Thoughts have the power to control the body and trigger emotions

OK – be happy now. No thinking just do it! Did it work?

and I think that they are powerful enough to "attract" things in your life (aka power of the mind, mind power, etc. I've experienced this in my life on a number of occasions. I've always got what I've really wanted).

Is this thought explaining or writing a story about what happens?

I can't see that clearly enough to say that the decision makes itself. At the moment it still seems like there is a me that makes the decision via thinking. I.e. I intentionally think (and create associated thoughts) about the problem/decision to be made and then come to a conclusion where I make a decision and then cause the body to act out the decision.

And again as above – keep looking. Where is this ‘you’ creating all this? Pinpoint that you. Is it a story thought again trying to explain what is happening?

Definitely not every time - there are many "arbitrary" decision that need to be made quickly and those seem to be automatic. I seem to control 'intentional doing' but 90% of doing happens on auto pilot.

What is the difference between an automatic decision and one made by ‘you’? And what is the difference between intentional doing and autopilot? Can you pinpoint what makes one one or the other? Don't think about this! Look.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah

Hope you had a good time at the beach!

If I use my mind to intentionally solve a problem or make a decision then there does seem like there is something (me) intentionally creating the thoughts but most of the time there is no experience of creating them.

OK – really explore this. ‘Is’ or ‘seem’. Go to the actually experience of it. It may take some time to actually notice it, but keep looking. Can you catch that point where there is a ‘you’ making a decision? Or like the lift voice – is the thought just along for the ride whilst the decision just happens?

It ‘seems’ like there is a me that is making the decision but when I try and look for a me or a source, I cannot find anything.

An example to explain this would be where I catch myself thinking a negative thought and before it finishes, I make an intention to stop it and it just stops. Can't really explain how I do it. It's like trying to explain how you close your fist - you just have the intention to do it and it happens.

So again – is this ‘is’ or ‘seem’? Do the negative thoughts reappear? What is ‘negative’? Is that a thought about a thought? Is that a story about a thought? Is that based on a thought wanting something other than what is? Track down and find the one who ‘stops thought’. Is it a ‘me’ or is it a ‘thought’ that says I’ve stopped thought?

I have to say that this is also ‘seem’ as it certainly seems like there is a me stopping the negative thought but when looked at no source or doer can be found. It’s very convincing because the negative thought is stopped and does not continue nor comes back up.

Thoughts have the power to control the body and trigger emotions

OK – be happy now. No thinking just do it! Did it work?

If I try to be happy I can change my mood slightly but not a drastic switch of genuine emotion. But in terms of thoughts controlling the body, I can have the intention (thought) to close my hand and it will happen.

and I think that they are powerful enough to "attract" things in your life (aka power of the mind, mind power, etc. I've experienced this in my life on a number of occasions. I've always got what I've really wanted).

Is this thought explaining or writing a story about what happens?

What do you mean by writing? Are you referring to the words above or to the thoughts in my head telling me that my mind created the occurrence in my life? If the former then yes it is just thought writing a story… If the later then no, it can’t be because the thoughts happen before the physical manifestation/occurrence happens. I.e. I keep thinking that I want something and then after the thoughts it appears in my life. Maybe I’ve misunderstood you here?

I can't see that clearly enough to say that the decision makes itself. At the moment it still seems like there is a me that makes the decision via thinking. I.e. I intentionally think (and create associated thoughts) about the problem/decision to be made and then come to a conclusion where I make a decision and then cause the body to act out the decision.

And again as above – keep looking. Where is this ‘you’ creating all this? Pinpoint that you. Is it a story thought again trying to explain what is happening?

I’ve looked. I can’t find any me.

Definitely not every time - there are many "arbitrary" decision that need to be made quickly and those seem to be automatic. I seem to control 'intentional doing' but 90% of doing happens on auto pilot.

What is the difference between an automatic decision and one made by ‘you’? And what is the difference between intentional doing and autopilot? Can you pinpoint what makes one one or the other? Don't think about this! Look.

If I really look at it, it is as though for automated decisions/actions, my attention is not on the decision/action taking place and for the decisions/actions made by ‘me’, my attention is on the decision/action. If this is true then who is the me who’s attention is either on the decision/action or not?

Having said all of the above, I want to add something and ask a question if I may (which will most likely break the rules because of it’s analytical philosophical nature…I can’t help it though, my profession is very logical and is based on analysis and technology - IT). I can see that life is just a series of reactions to whatever comes up in any given situation. I.e. it is as though there is a very complex and highly sophisticated computer program running that is filled with IF this THEN that ELSE this logic built into it which has evolved over the lifetime of the human (as well as from the beginning of the universe – i.e. evolution of the species). This is essentially what the brain is (the computer/program) and it reacts to any given situation by running it (the experience of the senses) through the program which then comes up with a decision and associated action. As you say the mind then just comments or “reads out” the decision process as it happens in the brain as well as the final decision. So ultimately we don’t exist as a sentient ‘me’ and we are essentially just organic robots living out a life until death. So in this case, the ‘me’ that I talk about and that I can’t find must be the brain.
And…, this all seems quite clear to me and plausible but what I can’t see is how statements are then made that we are not this (body-mind) but rather the totality of everything that exists (the substrate of all existence. Awareness. The Absolute. God. etc.). How is that conclusion made? I don’t see the connection.

And finally, is there any sentience or aliveness at all? Or are we all just robots? I.e. is there a thing called Awareness that is experiencing everything and is everything. Or is there just everything and it is all made up of lifeless robots and matter that have no real sentience or awareness at all?

Feel free to completely ignore the above if I’ve deviated from the intention of the forum and this conversation.

Thanks
Bryan

Hey Bryan

Hope you had a good time at the beach!

I did thank you! Lovely.

I have to say that this is also ‘seem’ as it certainly seems like there is a me stopping the negative thought but when looked at no source or doer can be found. It’s very convincing because the negative thought is stopped and does not continue nor comes back up.

Are you catching it at the point of when the decision is being made? Keep looking!

If I try to be happy I can change my mood slightly but not a drastic switch of genuine emotion. But in terms of thoughts controlling the body, I can have the intention (thought) to close my hand and it will happen.

Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.
Looking at the fingers in the air, it’s not quite known when they will tap. In fact, the thought “tap now” can quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air.
See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.
Is it true that in direct experience there is no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap?
What causes the finger to tap? Anything? See what can be discovered in experience rather than thought.

What do you mean by writing? Are you referring to the words above or to the thoughts in my head telling me that my mind created the occurrence in my life? If the former then yes it is just thought writing a story… If the later then no, it can’t be because the thoughts happen before the physical manifestation/occurrence happens. I.e. I keep thinking that I want something and then after the thoughts it appears in my life. Maybe I’ve misunderstood you here?

Im referring to what thoughts say – and yes you saw that! Do thoughts tell lots of stories about whatever is happening? How much of thought is future based? How much roughly as a percentage is past based?

I’ve looked. I can’t find any me.

How does that feel?

If I really look at it, it is as though for automated decisions/actions, my attention is not on the decision/action taking place and for the decisions/actions made by ‘me’, my attention is on the decision/action. If this is true then who is the me who’s attention is either on the decision/action or not?

So attention is the key here – yes? When attention is on something there is a ‘you’ that you cant see/find controlling or creating etc. – yes? Do you control attention? How long for? If there was control – wouldn’t it be total?

I want to add something and ask a question if I may

Im going to answer with a question or two! :)
Do you exist? – yes or no – no thinking about it – just answer.
Havent you answered yourself with one sentence – ‘I cant help it’.
Are there thoughts ‘wanting’ here? Are thoughts wanting to understand?
What is actually experienced here – any or all of the above? NOT what is thought about – what is experienced? E.g. do you experience your brain or thoughts?
Lastly – what notices looking? What notices feelings? What notices thoughts, sensations, being aware etc? Is there something that notices everything?
Hugs Sarah xxx