The Gate

I'm new, saying hello, leaping into this space of the unknown. Wishing all wellness, and feeling happy this Thursday morning. Just done the some meditation practice and have had breakfast. Getting settled into the day ahead. All the best, Be

Hi Beroca69,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Thanks for your message. My name is Jon.

Could you let me know what bought you to LU and why you have opened a thread here? What might you be hoping to gain or achieve here? You mention meditation. Is that something you do regularly?

What we do here is guiding towards the realisation that 'self' is an illusion, an idea. Is that something you'd like to look at? We do this by means of a conversation, as you probably have already noticed? Before going further could you let me know if you have particular expectations of this process?

Best wishes,

Jon.

I heard about LU when I ws on a meditation/ study retreat in Wales last week. I have asked for ordination into the Triratna Buddhist Comunity and realise that there is some work being done in using the LU techniques (or something) with one of the key meditation teachers in the Order. As I respect his work, I decided to try out LU. There was also someone at the rerteat who had tried it out and I have a sense of connection with her.
Hope to gain/ achieve? I'm curious about LU.. want to achieve.. connection with others who are exploring this way of relating to the universe/ everything and nothing.
Self is an illusion.. there is a sense of this already arising .. thought it'd help to explore this further. to understand how... what it means.. and "so what?" and "now what?"

Meditation happens regularly - I also teach mindfulness and do this at work and run a yoga class.

What do you notice in your experience?
I appreciate you contacting me and guiding, and at the moment.. no clear expectations.. simply curiousity.

Best wishes,
Be.

Hi Be (is it OK to call you that?),

Good to hear back from you with a little more detail and background.

It's a good idea to use the 'Full Editor' available by clicking the relevant button at the bottom of the editing window. This then enables you to use the Quote function when needed. You'll see in my reply that I have used this. When you wish to quote somethig, simply copy and paste into the editing screen after first clicking on the 'Quote' button at the top. Then paste the line between the bracketed 'quote' indicators.

I'm curious about LU.. want to achieve.. connection with others who are exploring this way of relating to the universe/ everything and nothing.[/quote

Curiousity is good. Generally, preconceptions and expectations of a particular-flavoured 'experience' are not. No fixed idea of what might happen will allow room for fruitful investigation, do you see that?

Self is an illusion.. there is a sense of this already arising .. thought it'd help to explore this further. to understand how... what it means.. and "so what?" and "now what?"

Good. OK. Well then, you and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please read and agree to the following:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.


Now, please tell me what you think 'you' are?


Regards,

Jon

Hi Jon,
Yes, calling me Be is fine. Full name is Bernadette.

The disclaimer has been read - and is much appreciated.
The short video... has now been watched. Thank you for that.

No fixed idea of what might happen will allow room for fruitful investigation

Yes, agreed. Ideas seperate from the experience of being. They are conceptual. Being now is direct.

I agree to the list that you provided and to post at least once a day. And will let you know if I need to go away. Sometimes during the week it gets busy, but will try to be consistent with daily posts.

You asked

Now, please tell me what you think 'you' are?

Have no idea.
There are preferences, for example for different foods, for clothes and shoes.
There is a voice, an accent, a face, a body, a name.
There are memories, plans, dreams.
There is a sense of this being unique, that the experiences are not being shared by any other being in this particular time and space.
There is a sense of being an individual.
There is also creation of a sense of self, of identity, through clothes, job title, work, adopting of a persona, a front through which a concept is projected that enables interaction and comunication according to some codes of behaviour. Through this money is earned and that pays for a home, so it enables this body to survive. But the "me" part, there is no idea. Simply open space, love, light, sometimes, distress, fear, cold, anxiety, body sensations.

LIke now, in the process of telling "you" there is a sense of the communication moving into space and openess and being received with openess.

Warm wishes, Be

Hi Be,

Thanks for agreeing to the ground rules.

Yes, agreed. Ideas seperate from the experience of being. They are conceptual. Being now is direct.

OK. But ideas are experienced too, aren't they? Thoughts? These do appear fairly often, don't they? Are these separate from the experience of being? What is it about ideas that makes you say they are 'separate'?

I agree to the list that you provided and to post at least once a day. And will let you know if I need to go away. Sometimes during the week it gets busy, but will try to be consistent with daily posts.

Thanks for this.

But the "me" part, there is no idea. Simply open space, love, light, sometimes, distress, fear, cold, anxiety, body sensations.

Actually you gave quite a series impressions here. Thoughts that suggest there cannot be a very 'solid' or definite 'self'. Would you agree?

Now look at the 'thinker' that came up with this series of ideas.

Is there a 'somebody', a 'mind' or 'me' that organised these impressions? That composed this imagery?


Best wishes,

Jon.

I agree that thoughts suggest that there cannot be a very solid or definite self.
And as for the thinker of the ideas or the creator of the imagery used to communicate.
I agree that there is no self really behind this.. so what is there?

By the way, I checked another post and someone requested a guide who was a Triratna Order member and such a guide responded.
May I make this request also? As it would be useful to see if this works within the Triratna framework.

Warmly,
Be

Hello Be,

By the way, I checked another post and someone requested a guide who was a Triratna Order member and such a guide responded.
May I make this request also? As it would be useful to see if this works within the Triratna framework.

I can hardly say 'no' can I? Or if I did, would you stay the course with any confidence? If this is what you want then it may not be possible for me to guide you anyway, but I will let you choose.

Though four of my previous clients who successfully passed through the gate came from Triratna (and I am still technically an Order Member myself), I would want to point 'beyond' identification with any kind of framework. Nothing can be a container for this kind of looking.

Please let me know how you'd like to proceed?

Best wishes,

Hi Jon,
Please tell me what you mean by:

I am still technically an Order Member myself

Yes, I notice resonating with what you wrote:

Nothing can be a container for this kind of looking.

You wrote:

But ideas are experienced too, aren't they? Thoughts? These do appear fairly often, don't they? Are these separate from the experience of being? What is it about ideas that makes you say they are 'separate'?

Yes, what is it indeed.. well there was a moment (a few years ago now and sometimes, even in moment by moment experiences) when the thoughts became like 'clouds in the night sky parting to reveal an open deep spaciousness' (like the way clouds part to reveal the stars in the night sky away when you are deep in the country). I was on a solitary and it was the third day or something. But this is also a feature much of the time.
Are these thoughts seperate from the experience of being? I guess not. And that it is rather like the thoughts and the experience of being are simultaneous and interconnected. Perhaps it is that the awareness of this may be narrow at times (and notice simply the thoughts) or broader (and notice thoughts and spaciousness between) or even broader (and notice the thoughts, the spaciousness and that 'beyond' from which the spaciousness arises).

I wrote a poem about it.

As for how I wish to proceed? Well, I'm glad that you have an experience of Triratna - are/ were you an order member in the triratna context?

Be

Hi Be,

Please tell me what you mean by:
I am still technically an Order Member myself

Just that. I was ordained in 1980 into the FWBO and have not resigned since. But after about ten years I found life 'within' the FWBO to be somewhat claustrophobic and at some stage I simply went my own way but without resigning. Once my children were born there was not a great deal of incentive to return.

Have you decided to stick with me for this or are you still requesting a different guide? Sorry but I have to ask you to decide now about this because I want to work with people who are sure they wish to work with me. I am very happy to continue if you are? Please let me know either way.

Thanks for your observations about thoughts, which are interesting. We can talk about those if you like, once I have heard back from you.

Best wishes,

Jon.

Happy to continue being guided by you.. it is good to see what is coming up for me about this process.

Best wishes,
Be

And thank you for your time and patience with this process.
I'm in the woman's ordination process and am finding it surprisingly kind, honest and open.
I'm also a parent.

Great! Let's continue then. I am very happy to be working with you.

Let's look at what you said about thoughts...

Yes, what is it indeed.. well there was a moment (a few years ago now and sometimes, even in moment by moment experiences) when the thoughts became like 'clouds in the night sky parting to reveal an open deep spaciousness' (like the way clouds part to reveal the stars in the night sky away when you are deep in the country). I was on a solitary and it was the third day or something. But this is also a feature much of the time.
Are these thoughts seperate from the experience of being? I guess not. And that it is rather like the thoughts and the experience of being are simultaneous and interconnected. Perhaps it is that the awareness of this may be narrow at times (and notice simply the thoughts) or broader (and notice thoughts and spaciousness between) or even broader (and notice the thoughts, the spaciousness and that 'beyond' from which the spaciousness arises).

In particular...

Are these thoughts separate from the experience of being? I guess not. And that it is rather like the thoughts and the experience of being are simultaneous and interconnected.

Yes. That's an important observation. Ccould a thought be prevented from appearing? This may sound a little odd but it's important. Look at this. Is there a 'self' that could prevent a thought from arising?

When we hear sounds or see sights and experience the five senses happening right now would you agree that there is an undeniable, real, raw quality to sensation?

Feel the side of your face with a hand. Notice just the sensation of this. There is an immediate, visceral experience that is happening right now, isn't there?

But then, perhaps a thought appears? Perhaps the thought is ABOUT something? ...Making a statement about the sensation perhaps, or about something else...but offering a commentary? And this thought is something extra added on to the real sensation of hand against face?

(If the scenario described did not happen in this way there will be plenty of opportunities for just stopping and observing one or other of the five senses. Just notice what it is like to be hearing sounds for example. Just hearing. Right now. Then, notice if a thought or two come along and if they 'say' something..


Best wishes,

Jon

Hello,
Glad we are continuing.
You ask:

Ccould a thought be prevented from appearing?

I don't think so. Thoughts arise and pass away. They can be changed, once they have arisen and stopped. But in terms of being prevented from appearing, probably not, because in thinking about stopping the thought, the concept of the though needs to be in mind and so the thought has already arisen. So probably not.

The sound of the wibd triggered the image of the sea and a memory of being in Ireland. Then thoughts of a coversation with my sister, who lives there. The thoughts 'say' that it's good that I booked a ticket to visit her.

I think that these thoughts are triggered from autobiographical memory. And that they like to an urge to be close to her - something about memories of warmth and closeness. And so on. And a delight in travelling. And anxiety as the relationship has its rocky memories too.

Best,
Be

By the way, are these emails all in the public domain?