The Gate

Hi Jahara,

II will be happy to guide you.

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Warm regards Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Many thanks for offering to be my guide.
Yes I have read the disclaimer and the instruction for quoting, thank you.

I understand that liberation is not a solution to life's issues nor is it a way to some kind of 'nirvana'. And I know working on being liberated is painful and hard. I am fully ready to be honest and work on letting go of intellectualising and avoiding facing truth.
My expectations are to see the truth of existence. I want help with peeling away the layers of this implanted 'self', personality. It feels like a prison - the patterns of behaviour, the beliefs - it's suffocating and I want to be free of living under the weight of the Jahara story. I understand being 'awake' intellectually mostly. I also experience going in and out of seeing -it's not sustained. Something external always takes me back into the story and I'm again lost.

Thank you Petrus.

Jahara

And it's not only external things that draw me back into self, but also thoughts. Thoughts create and reinforce this sense of a self and they are constant - one after another - or bunches of 'em all at once :) I know the thoughts can't be stopped - but what I want is to be always aware of what they are and what they do - and that the self they narrate and repeatedly make me believe is true, is a lie.

Hi Jahara,

And I know working on being liberated is painful and hard.

Haha, much people think that and it can be, yes.
But the good news is it doesnt have to be. Lets make this a fun liberation!

I want help with peeling away the layers of this implanted 'self', personality.

I like to go to the core immediately.
Here are some questions about thought:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Same about the thought 'I'?

Regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Thank you for your encouraging response and questions:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?

I honestly don't know where thoughts come from. They are always there. Where's there? In this brain... Thoughts arise from circumstances I guess. They come from emotions. And emotions arise from thoughts.. One thought leads to another..They come from, or rather are made by, the 'self' - the history, beliefs, attitudes, fears, ideas about what is and what should be. Action creates thought. Even when I think I'm not thinking, that is a thought. Thoughts come from the ego that I believe is real - the 'me' that seems to be in this head.
I don't know where they are going. They just appear and then disappear - only to be replaced by another thought. It's like Grand Central in this brain - always comings and goings - crowded and never ending.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

I think so. But only by it being replaced by another thought. But how can I know if it is the is the middle of the thought and not the end? Do they have an end? Thoughts seem to be without beginning, middle and end - they are merge into each other..
Outside circumstances can interrupt a thought. And if later, I come back to doing whatever I was doing when I had that interrupted thought, the thought returns. Or is still there, as if waiting for me to finish it. :)

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No. No it can't. I've tried to find this 'I'. It's nowhere. It can't be just the brain - that is merely an organ of the body. It can't be the body because that is not where thoughts are. Thoughts are thought in the brain but again, that is just an organ of this body. There is no little entity inside me, no little box that houses the 'i'. I can't locate it, no. In moments I think that the 'I' is in the brain, but that is a thought. So thoughts can create an 'I', but there is no tangible 'I' that can create thoughts ???? I'm getting tangled here.. aaaagh! :)

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

It seems as though the thinker is the one experiencing things. It has the APPEARANCE of being the case. Like the thought say to.. eat an apple comes up - so I eat an apple - but it is the mouth, the digestive system that is consuming the apple - the body. And the body is not the thinker of thoughts.. The next thought here is that I am the owner of the body - I who think the thoughts.. but the 'I' cannot be found.. so... the body is the experiencer.. There is thought about what is experienced - the appearance and taste of the apple, the feel of it in my hand - the smell of it. These thoughts though are separate from these direct experiences of touch, sight, taste and smell..

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Yes. I can't locate the 'I', so it can only be a thought. It is a belief. I've always believed there is an 'i'. This belief has been implanted from infancy and is reinforced every second of every day by society, family, friends, circumstances - 'my' history, ideology, beliefs, biases, preferences, tastes, fears, experiences... every bloody thing. :) The 'I' is created by all these things. The key word here is 'created' i.e.: invented.

I want to take each thing I listed and look at it.. 'Society' labels us - we need an I.D. to function - a name and other identifying information. 'Family' - parents encouraged a separateness.. they taught me what is mine and what is theirs. What i can touch and what I can not. What I need to learn and how I need to behave. Siblings reinforced this - mine, yours etc..Parents labelling this person named Jahara - giving me a persona - saying I am 'lazy' or 'good at drawing' or 'bad at math'..etc. telling me this is 'your bed', 'your chair'..
'Circumstances' - I seems to be located here - because 'my' circumstances are that I'm currently sitting in this chair, in this room, in this country I am visiting.. but again this is the body in this circumstance - there are thoughts about it, but they are not the 'I'..
'History' - this seems to illustrate an 'i' - but again that is just a thought. A personal history is but a series of events and circumstances long gone. It doesn't exist. It can't be found. This history is just a thought, a memory. It's not tangible - can't be located. '
Ideology' - this is also a stance - a viewpoint created by circumstances and beliefs. Circumstances that also can't be found. And beliefs are just thoughts. 'Beliefs' - yes, they are thoughts - human invented, changeable and not tangible. 'Biases' , 'preferences' and 'tastes' = the same as beliefs. 'Fears' come from past experiences, and a mental projection into possible future events. So these too are thoughts. 'Experiences' - there are thoughts about these, but past experiences do not exist. Experiences are experienced by the body and opinions about them are formed by the thoughts. So all these things do not create an 'I'. The 'I' can only be an invention of thought... I think. ha ha. :)

Petrus, I'm having trouble with getting the 'error 500' message' . I will send this now and answer your other questions later in the day.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

It feels like thoughts cannot be controlled. One thought can be consciously replaced by another if the original thought is, say, too painful. But this is just a bandaid and the thought comes back. So there is a certain lack of control - so this would indicate there is no controller. Thoughts can be temporarily put to the 'back of the mind' but they come back (from wherever they seem to go ) :).. There is no 'I' to stop thoughts arriving in the first place - they seem to have 'minds of their own', as they saying goes. Just now, in contemplating this question, a barrage of thoughts arrived, one following the other - some in the foreground, others fading or in the background - whatever it is that is aware of these thoughts, is also a thought - there is thinking about the thoughts - but where is the originator of the thoughts? Or: where do they originate from? They aren't invited by anyone. And any control of them seems ephemeral and fleeting - so there can't be a controller - if there is, she is not doing a good job. :)

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?

It doesn't feel like there is any control over painful or negative thoughts coming up really. A choice can be made to redirect a painful thought by thinking about something else, but the painful thought comes back. Especially if it is an unresolved issue - thoughts about it keep arising. A negative thought triggers emotion, which in turn reinforces the thought and leads to more painful thoughts. It feels like all that can be done is to watch the thoughts, but to stop them coming is an illusion and just another thought. How can 'I' know a negative thought is coming? It is not experienced until it is thought... aaaagh :) But who is experiencing the thought? It is just thought being thought by no one - there can be thoughts about the thoughts and feelings about it.. but who is feeling?
I don't know if I can choose what to think or not think. Thinking about not thinking about something is really thinking about that thing. :) Thoughts can be replaced by others -but in that replacing, there is still thought about what is being replaced. I just tried it. I was thinking about something that is bothering me and tried to replace it with a thought about something else. I thought, ok, think about the beach. So I started visualising the sand and water, and thinking about the last time i was there, who I was with etc... This temporarily seemed to replace the painful thought. But it just came back (if it ever left).

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?

Thoughts think you. If there was a 'you' to think thoughts then that 'you' would have control over them. Thoughts create an 'I'. 'I' cannot be located, so it can only be a thought. It is said that thoughts can be changed - you know the sayings.. like 'change your thoughts, change your life' etc.. A choice can be made to focus more say on the positive aspects of life, thereby hoping to reduce darker negative thoughts. But again, this is ephemeral and illusionary surely.. artificial and not sustainable. A person is invented by thoughts, thoughts aren't invented by a person... Any consciously bidden thought does not eradicate or control the billions of other thoughts that are just there only 100 percent of the time. :)

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, because you don't know it's coming until it is there. The thought 'i will prevent this thought from coming' , is a thought about a thought that is already there. There can be effort made to not think about a certain subject, but in trying to not think of it, you are really thinking of it.

Same about the thought 'I'?

No. The thought 'I' is always there. It is encased, enfolded, imbricated and braided into EVERY OTHER THOUGHT. Thoughts are thought to be generated from the 'I'. The 'I' seems to be the originator of the thoughts and is also the subject of the thoughts : 'I am in this chair' is a thought that just came up. It's insidious. 'I am cold'. 'I am hungry'. 'I feel like going for a walk'. I can't stop these thoughts from appearing. The best that can be done is to watch them.. but who is doing the watching? The thought about watching them is 'I will watch MY thoughts'.. sigh... :)

Thanks Petrus :)

Jahara

I meant, YES, same about the thought 'I'. NO, it is not possible to prevent it from appearing.

Hi Jahara,

I honestly don't know where thoughts come from.

Very good, we dont know.
All the rest after that sentence you wrote is: making assumptions, theories, reasoning... All belonging to the realm of thinking. That is fun, but you never will come with a real answer there...

So thoughts can create an 'I', but there is no tangible 'I' that can create thoughts ????

Did you ever noticed, this so-called I is only there when you are thinking?

I'm getting tangled here.. aaaagh! :)

Getting tangled is very very good...haha

so... the body is the experiencer..

Can you check that? You can experience the body and now you say the body is the experiencer.

Is there a solid body anyhow?
You can feel pressure here and there.
You can see small parts of it, etc.
Your head and back, you cant see, only in a mirror.
Inside (if you can call it that) you cant see a thing, only feel, and mostly when something is wrong.

There is thought about what is experienced - the appearance and taste of the apple, the feel of it in my hand - the smell of it. These thoughts though are separate from these direct experiences of touch, sight, taste and smell..

Thought is a kind of subtitling machine,isnt it?

The 'I' can only be an invention of thought... I think. ha ha. :)

I think that too, haha...
But it just is true too.

But who is experiencing the thought?

Maybe no who? Maybe there is just experiencing?
When listening music is someone listening? Or is there just listening?
Making music: is there an I making music?
Thoughts are just thought. (<= period) Not by someone.

Thoughts can be replaced by others -but in that replacing, there is still thought about what is being replaced. I just tried it. I was thinking about something that is bothering me and tried to replace it with a thought about something else. I thought, ok, think about the beach.

Who decided to think about the beach? So who replaced the thought? Not a who, but a thought again!
Exactly as you said: "I thought, ok, think..."
Thoughts are very good in disguising as an I.

The best that can be done is to watch them.. but who is doing the watching? The thought about watching them is 'I will watch MY thoughts'.. sigh... :)

When you discover this, it is normal to get crazy from these I thoughts at start.

There is no best thing to do. You are already doing what you are doing, including thinking. No I can prevent this or alter this. Life just is (and sometimes shit happens).

You are doing very fine!
Thank you too.

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Did you ever noticed, this so-called I is only there when you are thinking?

Yes I HAVE noticed. The times of not thinking though (at least during the waking hours) are fleeting. So the absence of the 'I' is also fleeting. I love that second or two upon waking in the morning when I am half asleep and not yet fully conscious of who I am, where I am, what is happening in my life etc etc.. There is no 'I' then. And then 'reality' kicks in and there is a sensation of heaviness. I am an artist, and a lot of the time when I'm completely focused on painting a picture, the 'I' is gone. All there is is the application of paint on canvas - a complete being in a flow of creativity. The feeling is of complete contentment - blissful absence of self - no thoughts - only intense seeing and a brush applying paint.

Can you check that? You can experience the body and now you say the body is the experiencer.

Is there a solid body anyhow?
You can feel pressure here and there.
You can see small parts of it, etc.
Your head and back, you cant see, only in a mirror.
Inside (if you can call it that) you cant see a thing, only feel, and mostly when something is wrong.

Yes I can check that. Like right now: I can feel the keys under my fingers, hear the sound of the fridge, see the light coming through the window, smell the faint odour of fruit .. ooooh - just noticed: that sentence began with 'I'. ha ha! :) So.. it is my fingers that can feel the keys... It appears as if there is an 'I' experiencing all of this.. but really it is skin, eyes, nose and ears. The 'I' is the thoughts about these senses. The brain telling the fingers to type these words - the brain thinking these sentences to type to you.. And also noticed I typed 'my' fingers... There is a belief of ownership of fingers.. this is where I get tangled -. they are 'my' fingers - in that they aren't someone else's fingers.. is it just semantics? no.. hmmmm... it's the set-in-stone belief in a self to own the fingers.

Is there a solid body? Everything is atoms isn't it? (I didn't do science at school ha ha).. so atoms floating about.. as I understand it, solidity is an illusion. There seems to be a solid body separate from other bodies and everything. A body sitting in this chair, legs crossed, head bent down, hands on keyboard..
Yes I can feel pressure here and there - bottom, hands, foot on the tiled floor, some discomfort in the back, a bit of a headache in the back of the head..
Yes only some parts are seen and not the so-called 'inside'. The parts not seen, do not rely on being seen to exist...don't need thoughts about them to exist.. Just a body in space.. the thoughts about them saying 'this is my hand, my foot' etc.. do not affect their existence.. the brain controls function - neurologically .. It feels like there needs to be an 'i' to give the brain instructions.. but it is just thoughts.. and this feeling there needs to be an 'I' is just another thought...

Thought is a kind of subtitling machine,isnt it?

Yes, in terms of experiencing things (as I'd described: the eating of an apple). Thought also narrates the action - 'this apple is sweet, 'this apple is red and large' etc..

Maybe no who? Maybe there is just experiencing?
When listening music is someone listening? Or is there just listening?
Making music: is there an I making music?
Thoughts are just thought. (<= period) Not by someone.

It APPEARS that there is someone listening to music. .. But.. the ears are listening.. and there is thinking about what is heard. When 'I' play the piano, it appears as if there is a player.. but eyes are reading the music, brain is transferring what eyes see to fingers.. ears hear ... It really feels like there is a self playing the piano... but when it's broken down - really looked at.. it's a body on the stool, fingers on keys and eyes on music.. an 'I' can't be located... so..there's just playing.. with all those body parts doing their bit...:)

Who decided to think about the beach? So who replaced the thought? Not a who, but a thought again!
Exactly as you said: "I thought, ok, think..."
Thoughts are very good in disguising as an I.

Yes the belief that there is an 'I' is just a thought!!! shit.. :) and yes, the thought to replace the negative thought with another about the beach, was just a thought! No one decided to do this.. it was just another thought ... looking for the 'I'.. is a thought.. frustration and confusion about not finding the 'I' that seems to exist.. are also thoughts...

There is no best thing to do. You are already doing what you are doing, including thinking. No I can prevent this or alter this. Life just is (and sometimes shit happens).

It FEELS like there is an 'I' controlling thoughts and actions. It's so embedded for so long - seeing outside of this illusion to the truth that there is no controller, is like suddenly being cast out into space with no life line. The reaction is to stop the seeing and come back to the safety of the illusion.
There is something happening in 'my' life that 'i' would prefer was different than it is. There has been much mental angst about it, sadness, frustration, feelings of hopelessness, resentment.. ( as you say: 'shit happens' ) :).. I'm realising, through answering your questions.. by looking at all this.. that these 'negative' feelings of sadness, frustration etc.. come from the illusion that I have some control over what I would wish to be different. There is no 'I' to control anything. there can only be torturous thoughts about it - letting go of the illusion of being able to change things..happens in the fleeting moments of seeing there is no one to do the changing.. So what is left? Accepting the situation? But there is no 'I' to accept anything. There is just situation. Just life.. I come in and out of seeing this.. feeling frustrated that it is not sustained ... Both fearing to be cast out into empty space and wanting it at the same time...But there is no self to be cast out.. space is already empty... .. 'I' just felt this strongly so i typed it.. but the next second a thought comes up that this is not true... The so-called 'ego' fighting the truth???

Thank you Petrus.

Jahara

Just read over my responses - reading the words 'I am an artist' was jarring.. Artistic activity is happening.. a painting is being painted... but.. this labelling - attaching a self to an activity or occupation.. it seems silly - or rather.. false .. The attachment of a self to a noun.. a doer to a noun.. hmmmm ... so ... art is happening.. that is all.. 'I' is a pro-noun - a word that stands in for a noun - a name.. 'Jahara' is the noun/ name - attached to another noun 'artist', as in 'Jahara is an artist'. But 'Jahara' is just a sound, a word label attached to a made up self.. part of the description of which is to label Jahara as an 'artist'...

Hi Jahara,

Now I lost 2 times my typings to you. So I try again (maybe a little shorter than the first 2 times):

I love that second or two upon waking in the morning when I am half asleep and not yet fully conscious of who I am, where I am, what is happening in my life etc etc.. There is no 'I' then.

Everybody likes the moments without I.
When you see through the I-thought once, it will be like there never is an I, so that is good news!

A sensation of heaviness is resistance: feel it, see what it is, dont run for it...

this is where I get tangled -. they are 'my' fingers

What is difference if you look at "your" fingers or looking at the ones from the one sitting next to you?
What is the difference of looking at you fingers or the tree in front of you? Both is seeing! Isnt it?
Is it maybe only the label (thought) attached to it?

It APPEARS that there is someone listening to music. .. But.. really looked at.. .there's just playing..

Exactly!

It FEELS like there is an 'I' controlling thoughts and actions. It's so embedded for so long - seeing outside of this illusion to the truth that there is no controller, is like suddenly being cast out into space with no life line. The reaction is to stop the seeing and come back to the safety of the illusion.

To let go of the habit will take time.
But once seen it is hard to unsee. Santa will never get the same after told he doesnt exist, but you still like the presents, haha..

There is something happening in 'my' life that 'i' would prefer was different than it is. There has been much mental angst about it, sadness, frustration, feelings of hopelessness, resentment..

Feel the feelings totally! It is a ridiculous thing to say, because what else is there to do?
But without an I able to do something you only can experience what is.
Sometimes thats fun, sometimes it is not.
An I (if it did exist) could not change that, only make it more complicated...

Warm regards, Petrus

Now I lost 2 times my typings to you. So I try again (maybe a little shorter than the first 2 times):

Hi Petrus... yes I have had trouble too. Now I copy and paste my typing to you onto a document before I submit it, in case it all gets sucked into the void of cyber space. :)

Everybody likes the moments without I.
When you see through the I-thought once, it will be like there never is an I, so that is good news!

A sensation of heaviness is resistance: feel it, see what it is, dont run for it...

Yes it's a very peaceful - a light feeling - not being weighed down. Free. Yes I can see the 'I' thought - once seen there is no way to un-see. There is a feeling of being adrift and cut off from everyone and everything. There is an aversion to reading, watching films - anything that displays human drama. The heaviness comes when I 'forget' and get involved in my own human dramas: longing, obsessing, fearing, worry, hurt etc etc.. But there is no one to own these - they are just thoughts ...functions of the human brain - reacting to stimuli. ...

What is difference if you look at "your" fingers or looking at the ones from the one sitting next to you?
What is the difference of looking at you fingers or the tree in front of you? Both is seeing! Isnt it?
Is it maybe only the label (thought) attached to it?

Yes seeing the fingers or someone else's fingers, or a tree.. all just seeing yes. The difference though is that 'I' can feel MY fingers... no no - this brain picks up on the sensation of touch.. it's the brain, essentially that experiences all sensation via the body parts.. sensory organs..

Feel the feelings totally! It is a ridiculous thing to say, because what else is there to do?
But without an I able to do something you only can experience what is.
Sometimes thats fun, sometimes it is not.
An I (if it did exist) could not change that, only make it more complicated...

This is where I get stuck. Does this mean we just allow things to happen? we have no agency, no decision making ability?
.....Thoughts respond to situations and incite action.
hmm yeah ok.. so 'I' is just a thought - so really it is circumstances and thoughts about them that direct action.. The stomach feels empty so the thought comes 'go eat something', so the body goes to the kitchen.. Ok yes. .it's all functions of the organism.. whether it is the body/brain satisfying the need for nourishment or how to negotiate with someone if there is an important issue.. But that is just a thought - that there is an issue.. brain/body reacting to a circumstance and labelling it 'issue'.. labelling is a thought... There can't suddenly be freedom from caring about issues - only seeing it as thoughts and external situations that the human organism negotiates...hmmmm... :)

Thanks Petrus.

Jahara

Hi Jahara,

The difference though is that 'I' can feel MY fingers...

So the fact you can feel fingers, make you call or label them mine?
Still doesnt make MY or MINE something real, isnt it?
What about hair? When you cut it all of a sudden it isnt YOUR hair anymore?
YOU is used for about everything: I am old, I am hungry, I have fingers, I am rich.
And in the meantime it just doesnt exist....

This is where I get stuck. Does this mean we just allow things to happen?

Is there someone there to allow?

It is a true wonder life is like it is.
Without someone that thinks he/she is an I, life even flows more natural.
Decisions are made natural, not by an I or manager.
Important issues are discussed more natural.

Warm regards, Petrus

So the fact you can feel fingers, make you call or label them mine?
Still doesnt make MY or MINE something real, isnt it?
What about hair? When you cut it all of a sudd

OMG! Yes... the fingers are attached to this body but there is no one to claim ownership..The brain/body organism feels them. This is insidious - we label things as 'mine' - 'my computer', 'my clothes', 'my phone'. .. it's so normalised and constant - obscuring the truth only ALL the time! The things are used by this body/brain but there is no 'I' to own them. Ok yes.. shit.. ok..

Is there someone there to allow?

It is a true wonder life is like it is.
Without someone that thinks he/she is an I, life even flows more natural.
Decisions are made natural, not by an I or manager.
Important issues are discussed more natural.

oh.. ok. .yes.. things are as they are - no one to allow or disallow - it is the illusion of control - of there being someone to orchestrate, direct the action - - The angst and worry and fears and stress are just thoughts thought by no one - not by a self that has any say or control over the action.. Life goes on naturally - life is negotiated by body/brain, just as non-human animals do.
Wanting to stage manage is just a thought - there's no one to do it - the belief in a self is a belief in a limited 'I' - sculpted by a history that doesn't exist, by parents, institutions, society - fears, beliefs, attachments, preferences, ideology etc etc.. all inform how the 'i' wants things to be - .. So without all that tension created by belief in a self ... - it's a release from a 'prison' that was never there - non-human animals respond from instinct and direct experience - humans are disconnected from this ..