The Gate

Hello,

I am looking for a guide. Here is some background:

Two and a half years ago I awoke one morning and everything was different. It was clear I was touching the "enlightenment" that many people spend their entire lives searching for. I hadn't been seeking this change; it simply came to me (it came after a session of neurofeedback that was not intended to spark this). It was like being in someone else's brain - where there had been a constant storm of fears, guilt and shame before, now there was silence. I experienced every moment deeply. I actually felt grateful for irritation and feelings of urgency (both "good" ones like a craving for something healthy and "bad" ones like anger) because these functioned as doors that brought me back into myself, down into my body into love, peace, and at the bottom - complete stillness and nothingness. The name "Sacred Peace" arose for this experience.

Three weeks into this experience, I consciously decided to leave it. I was seriously worried about a family member and believed that I could not help him if I remained in Sacred Peace, because in this state I felt non-attached to everything. As soon as I left it, I returned to exactly as I had been before. I was fine with this for a long time because I thought it was the necessary choice.

Now that I've found Liberation Unleashed, I believe I was on the threshold of accepting that there is no self. And I've read that life continues and is not destroyed after this acceptance.

I'm ready to explore the gate, my fears, and - I hope - cross over.

I'm looking for a guide. In case the trappings will help a potential guide: I'm a 28 year old woman, engaged, no kids, living in the South Atlantic in the USA.

I've read the matching of guides and newcomers doesn't always work. I hope a guide who will be a workable match find me.

Thank you.
Lucy (or if there is no self, "Lucy")

Hi Lucy,

I will be happy to guide you.
I am Dutch, but live in the Western Indonesian Timezone (GMT+8).

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Warm regards Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Thank you very much. Nice to "meet" you.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

I have fears about seeing through the illusion that are expectations of a sort. At some point we should probably go over those because they are holding me back. But, setting the negative expectations aside, here are the neutral/positive expectations:

I expect I will have all the same feelings and be in the same life situation as I am now. However, my relationship with those feelings will be different. My inner experience will be one of greater freedom. For the most part, I will be able to choose which feelings and thoughts to attend to.

I have a hope that I will no longer procrastinate and that I will be more disciplined than I currently am. However my lack of discipline is a habit and I've read that habits often remain. So even though I hope for this, it is a "magical" hope that I don't expect to be fulfilled.

I also have a hope that the experience past the gates will be pleasant and the filled with peaceful, fulfilling nothingness like I experienced before.

Hi Lucy,

I have fears about seeing through the illusion

What are you afraid of exactly?
Fear is a natural thing. It is happening as a response. I suspect that the fear you are feeling now might be a natural response to the unknown.
But I assure you there is nothing to fear. If no-self is true, then it is ALREADY true even now.

For the most part, I will be able to choose which feelings and thoughts to attend to.

The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
If you will see there is no separate self, there is no-one to choose feelings or thoughts either.
So sorry haha... The attitude towards to ALL thoughts and feelings could change though!

I also have a hope that the experience past the gates will be pleasant and the filled with peaceful, fulfilling nothingness like I experienced before

The Sacred Peace is an experience. And experiences always have a start and an end. It is not possible to hold to an experience.

What is possible however, is to have a close look to what we refer to as "ourselves".
That can make a big change. But on the other hand, some people go into that quite smoothly, without any fireworks. But you cant tell how somebody will react in advance.

I always like to start with two sets of questions.
One set about the body, and one about thoughts. Many times the answers to these questions, reveal where you hold on to believes. Here is the first:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Same about the thought 'I'?

Regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Many questions! Thank you for these. I'll answer a few tonight and more tomorrow.

I have fears about seeing through the illusion

What are you afraid of exactly?

I am afraid that without the organizing structure of self, "I" will lose all ambition and won't do self-care (like going to work, feeding myself and doing hygiene). I fear this will cause me to unnecessarily die early because I won't have the necessary things to sustain my body, or that it will change my outer life situation in a way that produces a lot of unpleasant emotions (such as by causing me to become homeless and unsafe).

The Sacred Peace is an experience. And experiences always have a start and an end. It is not possible to hold to an experience.

Wow, I never saw Sacred Peace that way before. Is living a human life an experience, too? If so, is it like Sacred Peace in that it has a start and an end? If that's true, why differentiate between the human life experience and the Sacred Peace experience? (How do we know the Sacred Peace experience cannot last until the end of the human life?)

Also, is being on the other side of the gateless gate an experience?

Where do thoughts come from?

There is awareness of thoughts. I had extensive training in a form of therapy (called "Internal Family Systems" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_F ... tems_Model) that teaches that we are composed of "parts" with distinct personalities. These parts try to protect the "Self" through thoughts, plans, and actions. I envision different "parts" of a person as being different brain patterns that arise and generate thoughts. So thoughts come from brain patterns.

As a sidenote, this form of therapy has given me the idea and direct experience of a Self that is another stumbling block in truly seeing there is no self. (The description on "Self" on this page http://www.selfleadership.org/about-int ... stems.html describes how I viewed and experienced Self.)

Where are they going?

Thoughts echo around the brain and eventually fade as time passes. Thoughts can be enhanced or re-triggered by things that happen in the outside world, making the brain patterns continue longer or expand in new directions.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

At times, I can consciously redirect attention and sometimes that leads to a desired result of a thought fading sooner than it usually does and not repeating in a loop or growing. I can also consciously seek another thought to disrupt the initial thought. But I cannot actively sever and stop the initial thought.

Thank you. I'm eager to continue tomorrow.

Hi Petrus,

I've been considering these questions all day.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

I don't know. Thoughts happen in the brain. Thoughts are brain patterns. I don't think most thoughts are generated by an entity, but I think they are received and listened to by a self entity. I think this self entity directs attention and awareness. Sometimes this intentionality comes out in a thought, like the directive "Let's focus" or knowing-feeling-thought of "This circumstance is not healthy."

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

The thinker of the thought cannot be found on the scale that humans can physically see with. However, that doesn't prove the thinker does not exist. After all, thoughts can't be seen on the human scale scale either. (Thoughts can be indirectly observed through the measurement of neuronal action potentials.)

In my IFS work (the therapy mentioned in my previous post) I did identify "parts" of me that took responsibility for generating types of thoughts. For example, I encountered "manager" parts of myself that seemed to generate caretaking thoughts. So yes, these parts that generated thoughts were found in my experience.

Beyond just encountering parts, doing IFS I experienced a core Self that was distinct from and superior to my many parts. My Self generated a strong characteristic experience with feelings of compassion, connectedness, creativity, calmness, and humor.

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Yes, it could be.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Thoughts occur without being controlled. There seems to be an "I" that has consciousness and can purposefully direct attention to and from thoughts and feelings. This direction of attention can influence (although not directly control) the behavior of thoughts (i.e., whether they grow or fade).

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, but "I" can usually choose not to focus on painful or negative thoughts. That is, if I remember that I have this choice before I get wrapped up in / blended with the thought.

Can you choose what to think?

No, but I can choose where I direct my attention and consciousness.
Also, I can invite certain types of thoughts (such as: What are things I like about my Mom (for a card for her birthday)? What is an argument on x side of a given debate?). I can also set up my environment in a way that influences my thoughts. (For example, watching violent tv shows makes me think "scary" thoughts, so I avoid these shows and I have fewer scary thoughts.)

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?

I don't know. I could imagine that thoughts think me. Consciousness, on the other hand, seems real and separate and not created by thoughts. But is consciousness "me"? (That is, is consciousness just an illusion too?)

Sometimes thoughts occur without my consciousness. For example, sometimes I need to "mull something over." For example, if I have a complicated puzzle I might "put it aside" for a few hours and not think about it consciously. When I come back to the puzzle later, I often have the answer. That indicates that thinking occurred in the meantime without my conscious attention. This observation makes me believe the unconscious is real. In other words, thought patterns can happen without awareness of them.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. It is possible to influence whether a thought will appear by not exposing oneself to stimuli that typically spark that thought. It is also possible to change my reaction to a thought, which can lower the likelihood of subsequent thoughts from occurring. But I can't force a thought to not appear.

Same about the thought 'I'?

I don't know. If I cross the gateless gate this might result in thoughts about "I" ceasing to appear, or becoming less common. This would be an environmental change resulting in a thought not appearing. In that way, the thoughts about "I" would be prevented from appearing (if not completely, then as much as they do now).


Today I remembered the existence of experiences of "blacking out" or "browning out" (when someone takes a mood-altering substance and afterwards can't remember what happened, although they functioned somewhat normally while they were not conscious of it). The fact that these things happen made me wonder how much "I" is associated with the tracking of one's thoughts and/or consciousness.

Thanks, Petrus. I'm really looking forward to your response / reflections.

Hi Lucy,

I really like the enthousiasm you are expressing!!

I am afraid that without the organizing structure of self, "I" will lose all ambition and won't do self-care...

Haha, ambition could become a little less, but life can take care very well of everything, without there being a you. It will be more natural.

Wow, I never saw Sacred Peace that way before.

Everything what starts and ends is an experience only, isnt it?

Also, is being on the other side of the gateless gate an experience?

Haha, no it is all the same over here. The only difference is that there is no believe anymore in a separate self.

So thoughts come from brain patterns.

This is what you learned. But if you look for yourself: where do thoughts come from?

As a sidenote, this form of therapy has given me the idea and direct experience of a Self that is another stumbling block in truly seeing there is no self.

This is also knowledge you heared. But can you show me what or where this self is?

At times, I can consciously redirect attention

You answered that several times. How do you do that?

Thoughts happen in the brain. Thoughts are brain patterns.

Again (sorry, haha): this is learned knowledge. When you look yourself you even cant see a brain!

I don't think most thoughts are generated by an entity, but I think they are received and listened to by a self entity. I think this self entity directs attention and awareness.

Like you say: these are all thoughts. But is it true?
Maybe you just dont know where thoughts come from?

The thinker of the thought cannot be found on the scale that humans can physically see with.

So is there an entity that thinks?
Or is it just thoughts passing by?

So yes, these parts that generated thoughts were found in my experience.

Where these parts reside? And how do they cook thoughts? What are the ingredients?

I experienced a core Self that was distinct from and superior to my many parts.

Could you elaborate on this?

I can also set up my environment in a way that influences my thoughts.

But what decides to set up an environment?

Consciousness, on the other hand, seems real and separate and not created by thoughts.

Existance (life) is. Some call it consciousnes, or God, or whatever.
The risk is to move the personal I to some sort of personal consciousness.

That indicates that thinking occurred in the meantime without my conscious attention.

That indicates that without thinking, controlling etc life goes much easier!
The answer is there, you only have to give space for it, by not trying, but being....

The fact that these things happen made me wonder how much "I" is associated with the tracking of one's thoughts and/or consciousness.

I only exists in thinking. Outside thinking there is no I.

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Good, I'm glad my long responses aren't getting in the way too much.

But if you look for yourself: where do thoughts come from?

I don't know where thoughts come from. They appear and I am aware of them. Or there is awareness of them.

The idea of parts generating thoughts was a relief because it explained where the thoughts came from. But this model didn't hold up over time because I'd learn about different parts with supposed distinct personalities that were generating a certain type of thought then a few weeks later totally forget about those parts and not be able to find them again ("Where did this part called __ go?" Nowhere to be found). If there really were distinct parts generating these thoughts, they'd be findable again. I think the parts idea is just a model that works if one believes in self. I don't think the parts stuff is truth.

can you show me what or where this self is?

I can't. My only experience with this self is my experience with Self, which I describe below. It was challenging to get Self to appear. But Self was consistent in traits (creativity, compassion, etc.). I wrote more about this below. :)

At times, I can consciously redirect attention

You answered that several times. How do you do that?

I sort of pull my attention away. It takes effort. Sometimes my brain feels a rushing that I imagine to be blood.

When you look yourself you even cant see a brain!

Yes, but there IS a brain. Right? Not seeing something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Like you say: these are all thoughts. But is it true?
Maybe you just dont know where thoughts come from?

Yeah, I don't know where most thoughts come from. But I still feel like certain thoughts, meta-thoughts come from a "me." Sorry, I know that's the main thing that's supposed to be dismantled here.

So is there an entity that thinks?
Or is it just thoughts passing by?

I'm beginning to think it's just thoughts passing by.

Where these parts reside? And how do they cook thoughts? What are the ingredients?

Haha! Um ... well I think these parts are neural networks in the brain. The more often neural pathways are used, the more likely it is they will be used again. The "ingredients" are action potentials (electricity) generated from a neuron down a dendrite (connector between neurons), and action potentials are constructed of sodium and potassium. So "parts" are simply another way of saying "conditioned brain patterns." I might be going in a circle now and just repeating myself from where I began.

What I just described is the observable occurrence of thoughts, but it doesn't explain the content of thoughts. If we go with the scientific description, all thoughts would be the same, just some would have higher or lower levels of electricity. But all thoughts are not the same. So the scientific description does not explain the content of thoughts, which is the most recognizable thing about them.

I experienced a core Self that was distinct from and superior to my many parts.

Could you elaborate on this?

The core self was a feeling of great peace. It somehow knew the answers to things that had disturbed me. I felt filled with compassion and love. Being in Self felt effortless. But it was hard to get there. I had to have a guide (a co-therapist) help me unblend from my "parts." And the "parts" had to agree to step aside. The Self could relate to the parts as their thoughts and feelings arose, and Self did so with love and understanding.

My thoughts all agreed, "THIS is Lucy's core self."

Is it possible this thing labeled Self is a mini stepping through the gateless gate?

But what decides to set up an environment?

It feels like "I" decided to set up an environment. But beyond feelings, what is observable: There is an impulse or decision to set up an environment. Sometimes thoughts arise protesting this. If those thoughts are not encouraged and blended with, the process of setting up the environment proceeds and it is done.

Existance (life) is. Some call it consciousnes, or God, or whatever.

So consciousness is real? Cool!

The risk is to move the personal I to some sort of personal consciousness.

I don't really understand this. Could you elaborate?

That indicates that without thinking, controlling etc life goes much easier!

I see this.

However what about when people black out and do really destructive things? Maybe they DO have the belief of a self at that time? Maybe that is different from when I allow thinking to occur without my attention when I'm mulling something over? Is the thinking even occurring if I'm not paying attention? I read about a research study on birds learning new songs. The birds had brain activity in the areas of the brain that are involved with learning when they slept. This indicated the birds were learning while they were asleep. I think this means thoughts were going on while they were asleep. So does the "mulling it over" process involve thoughts occurring that are simply not being paid attention to?

Going back to the blackout example where life is lived but memories are not recorded: if it's true there are thoughts and there is consciousness, is it also true there is recording of memories? If so, how does the "recording of memories" fit in? Is that part of consciousness? Or is it more like thoughts - something that can happen but is not required? I've written daily in a diary almost my entire life but lately have stopped, thinking that maybe my attachment to / practice of remembering what happened in a day is antithetical to crossing through the gateless gate. (I used to think reflecting helped me learn from life.)

Thank you, Petrus!! I feel almost on fire with wanting to continue with this.

Hi again Petrus,

Two thoughts:

1. When I was in the Sacred Peace experience, there was no Self to be found. There were just thoughts, sensations, attention, love, gratitude, stillness, observing/recording and ... I will admit, a belief that there was an "I". But there was no core Self like I experienced in therapy sessions that I talked about earlier.

How is it, then, that in my normal life I thought I was "in Self" at moments in therapy?


2. Your answer about life doing a good job of living itself helped, but I do still have some fear. I am still afraid that if I let go of the illusory "self" structure something will happen to me like happened to a friend of mine. As you can see in this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0 Hannah totally forgot who she was for several seeks. She even denied she was Hannah to a fellow student who spotted her and asked if she was the girl everyone was looking for. Hannah ultimately wandered into the harbor and nearly drowned. I am afraid that will happen to me. If I let go of a self, will I forget I am "Lucy" and will I no longer take care of myself, content to simply do the next "right" thing (such as wandering into the harbor to cool off)?

While looking for the link about my friend to show you, I found this description of Depersonalization Disorder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder It's not what Hannah had, but it made me thing - is Depersonalization Disorder a pathologizing of having crossed through the gateless gate?

Thanks, Petrus.

Hi Petrus,

I apologize if I'm posting "too" much.
But I wanted to tell you:
I am experiencing a lack of self.
My mind (thoughts) have not fully understood it, but they are starting to more and more.
I feel just an experiencing, interspersed with feelings, then a reminding sometimes after thoughts and feelings that "There is no "I" to feel ..." That, too is a thought coming from a knowledge.

This is smooth and I'm not fully there but it seems I'm starting to slip through the gate. Like a sponge being submerged in water - there are a few moments before the sponge is fully soaked. Seems "I" might be in those moments before complete soakage.

"I" am still eager to continue our discussion. Just wanted to tell you

Hi Lucy,

Just finished answering you. Then lost all!
Had to start again. So maybe I am not very extensive again now in answering, haha..
If questions keep unanswered, just ask them again. (I do!)

I sort of pull my attention away

Is it really a you that is pulling?

Yes, but there IS a brain.

Scientifically speaking yes! But in these matters science is not really giving the answers (yet?).

But I still feel like certain thoughts, meta-thoughts come from a "me."

Just keep looking...

The risk is to move the personal I to some sort of personal consciousness.

I don't really understand this. Could you elaborate?

Sometimes people see there is no I, and then start saying: I am consciousness.
It is like they moved the separate self to a separate consciousness.
If you look closeley when experiencing, there is no observer and no object, only experiencing.
So there is looking (hearing, smelling) only. You cannot experience consciousness. You just are!

Your answer about life doing a good job of living itself helped, but I do still have some fear. I am still afraid that if I let go of the illusory "self" structure something will happen to me like happened to a friend of mine.

Your friend, was she on a sprititual path?
These things can happen, especially when someone is out of balance, not especially only when doing these inquiries we do here.
We do however not recommend to do these inquiries if easily out of balance. There is this disclaimer on LU: (http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/). I actually dont know why I didnt ask you to read them.
When the anxiety persists, please let me know!

I am experiencing a lack of self.
My mind (thoughts) have not fully understood it, but they are starting to more and more.

Very good!
Your mind never will understand this fully. It is beyond mind.
Just let the mind do his tricks. Maybe respond: "well done" and smile...

Warm regards, Petrus.

Hi Petrus,
So sorry your original response got lost. How frustrating!

I am passing through the gate in some way.
There is a knowing there is no self.
An observable difference is how effortless tasks are now. Doing happens, just happens, no need for "self." Things that would have been big accomplishments are so easy. Not everything is easy but many things (that weren't before) are.

When the anxiety persists, please let me know!

There are still a lot of fears. I (repeated thoughts are coming up) am afraid that if I live as having no self, I will forget who I am and do what my friend did. (To answer your question, she was not on a spiritual path as far as I know.) I am very afraid of "blacking out" and wandering off. Could you say more to reassure me, or help find other guides' wisdom to do so? If there is no reassurance, I'd like to know that.

Speaking of that, you said:

These things can happen, especially when someone is out of balance, not especially only when doing these inquiries we do here.

That sounds honest. Are there ways I can help myself to make this less likely?

An additional fear is that I have my wedding coming up in a few months and there is fear I will be so detached I won't experience it. I haven't bought into that fear (there is realization saying "I haven't bought in" is self-talk) but it is a distressing fear.

I sort of pull my attention away

Is it really a you that is pulling?

I really don't know. The question of who is pulling seems so uninteresting now.

But I still feel like certain thoughts, meta-thoughts come from a "me."

Just keep looking...

As I look - or in the moments between - there is a knowing that there is no me. There is just knowing and observing.

The word "me" almost seems foul now. I don't want to say it.

Sometimes people see there is no I, and then start saying: I am consciousness.
It is like they moved the separate self to a separate consciousness.
If you look closeley when experiencing, there is no observer and no object, only experiencing.

Yes, this is what "I" was doing. I was beginning to think the consciousness was evidence of me. There is still a little bit of this belief left.

We do however not recommend to do these inquiries if easily out of balance.

I am highly sensitive so experience things fully but am not easily out of balance as far as I can observe. I have never had a psychiatric problem (other than PTSD that ended a few years ago) and am not on any drugs or prescriptions. I don't take any mood-altering substances. I hold down a steady job and have been a stable adult for years.

There is this disclaimer on LU ...

Yes, I read the disclaimer when I first came to the site and fully accept the terms. The disclaimer pleased "me" as I found it very responsible.

I am experiencing a lack of self.
My mind (thoughts) have not fully understood it, but they are starting to more and more.

Very good!
Your mind never will understand this fully. It is beyond mind.

Your response helped a lot. "I" could release more into the experience and let go of the boring tricks and puzzles the mind makes up around the questions about self.

Just let the mind do his tricks. Maybe respond: "well done" and smile...

I love this!! Makes me smile big and laugh inside.

There is a feeling of needing more help from you (your thoughts on my questions, guidance, questions from you, whatever is appropriate now), and there is a feeling of urgency. I emailed Ilona today asking for help because I thought she might be in the same time zone and available. No reply (yet) but just wanted to let you know. (I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't reply at all given the many demands on her time.)

Very appreciative for your time and gift of focus. Thank you!!

PS - Is there a way to evaluate if you are "easily out of balance"? Anxiety is attaching to that question. "I" don't think I am easily out of balance but anxiety/fear around that is here.

Hi Lucy,

I didnt ask you to read the disclaimer, because I thought you are not soemone who is fast out of balance.
So maybe that is reassuring you.
I think you are doing very fine. It will be getting used to this new situation without an I.
However, in fact, you always did, only thought there was I.
I that respect nothing changed. So relax, everything was already out of control.

Maybe you can read about fear here (its on Ilona's website):

http://markedeternal.blogspot.nl/2014/0 ... ation.html

There is a feeling of needing more help from you (your thoughts on my questions, guidance, questions from you, whatever is appropriate now), and there is a feeling of urgency. I emailed Ilona today asking for help

Shoot, I am here and awake for the next 8 hours. Ilona is in England I think and still asleep..

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Lucy,

My previous answer was written a bit quick and so had some errors.
But it was understandable I think.

If you like I can shoot my second set of questions?
But if you like we also can chat on Facebook or another medium. Send me a PM if you like that.

I am highly sensitive too, but the balance only got better after the Gate, haha.

Can you tell me what : "I haven't bought in" means?

Warm regards, Petrus.