Liberation, hopefully...

[lochie]

Hi,
I’m a little uncertain how to proceed but here goes… I’m a semi-retired, self-employed, married guy who has been practising meditation, for an hour, daily over 5 ½ years, with the Triratna Buddhists. My practice is generally very good, often pleasurable, and has led to a great sense of contentment and peace. I lead a full life and Buddhism has become an important but minor part of my life. I have registered with LU from a sense of curiosity and because I have been told that some Triratna members have found it beneficial. It would also be fair to say that any move towards an increased spiritual awareness is attractive.

[JimmyG]

Hello Lochie

This is Rolly (male) from the Switzerland. Very nice to meet you.

I have registered with LU from a sense of curiosity and because I have been told that some Triratna members have found it beneficial.

Yes, I am here to guide you.

A few quick guidelines: look to post daily/regularly or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, our disclaimer.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen the above - then we shall begin.

Best wishes
Rolly

[lochie]

Hi Rolly,
I have read the disclaimer and your rules. I get regular Server 500 errors when I try to log on. Is this usual?

And I look forward to hearing from you,

David

[JimmyG]

Hi David

I'm glad you're ready. Currently there are some hassles with the server which I'm sure is worked on already. Let me know if that continues after a few days. It is best to prepare your answers externally with e.g. winword or other text devices and then copy and prepare that in here.

Let's get started. How about expectations - what are your expectations of this dialogue here?

Best wishes
Rolly

[lochie]

Hi Rolly,

I’ll jump straight in. I said in my initial post that an increase in spiritual awareness would be attractive. Let me restate that as the hope for an improved perception of reality and a fuller acceptance of no-self.

I am someway down the road. Both Christianity and an interest in Hinduism allowed me an individual soul. Initially I found the Buddhist concept of anatta (no-self) difficult. I can now accept that there is no permanent, unchanging self, that David is the product of his experiences and different from the David of say 10 years ago. So David is a useful social and linguistic label for a bag of experiences and emotions all of which are constantly changing. So I have no problem with the idea of no permanent, unchanging self. But, and here is the issue I think I have to address, right in this present moment the David bag is a current entity which has family responsibilities and work or other choices to make. In the present moment David seems real to me….

[JimmyG]

Hi David,

Let me restate that as the hope for an improved perception of reality and a fuller acceptance of no-self.

There is no such thing as improved perception. That is a fantasy that is always a comparison to some imagined past or future. Instead, there is always just this right now as it is, and there is no possibility of this becoming more or less. This is the totality. It is already the case. Nothing needs to be improved.

Initially I found the Buddhist concept of anatta (no-self) difficult.

Yes I agree, trying to understand a concept is impossible. That’s why here you go with direct experience – no concepts, no mind or thought stream, just looking.

the David bag is a current entity which has family responsibilities and work or other choices to make.

These also look like concepts which we will have a look into and see if there’s any reality to them and if there is anything or anyone to choose to make things happen.

In the present moment David seems real to me….

If I tell you there is no ‘you’, no David, at all, in any way, shape or form - what comes up? There’s only life flowing without any general manager.

Take time in your own pace and don’t think. Just watch your breathing, notice what is seen, heard, touched, smelled and tasted, the aliveness of the moment. Observe how thought intrude, let it happen, no clinging. Go by direct experience rather than by your thinking.

Let me know what you find.

Rolly

[lochie]

Let me try and apply this. I'll come back in a few days......

[JimmyG]

That's alright, just keep sitting with it and be back soon.

[lochie]

Hello Rolly,

Yes, don’t think just do it and live in the present moment is fine. But I have to deal with a logical problem first.

I said “In the present moment David seems real to me….”

And you replied “If I tell you there is no ‘you’, no David, at all, in any way, shape or form - what comes up? There’s only life flowing without any general manager”

Well what comes up is a practical day-to-day concern. What about the responsibility and the requirement to act? In my daily life there is a need to act, to make choices for my family or clients which can profoundly affect them. I can’t carry out these responsibilities by sitting back, doing nothing and letting life flow past me.

And what about the wider world? If I give £500 to aid Syrian child refugees this is a good choice undertaken by Label Dave. And this seems to me to lead to another problem. If we deny, totally, that the individual exists then we may be in danger of stripping people’s humanity away, and if we accept that “there’s only life flowing without any general manager” these ideas, especially in combination, could make it much easier to disregard injustice and other peoples suffering. If they don’t exist then neither they nor their suffering are real!

Now I don’t believe you are advocating this so I need to understand how people can discharge their responsibilities and maintain compassionate action, while not actually existing. The idea of Label Dave or David as just a bag of constantly changing experiences and emotions seems sensible to me. I can understand non-existence in absolute terms, but day-to-day or minute by minute, I think there has to be recognition of a relative or temporal entity even if it this is impermanent and constantly changing.

[JimmyG]

Hallo David

Thank you for your frank replying. Before we tackle basic assumptions here let's first do some basics:

Yes, don’t think just do it and live in the present moment is fine. But I have to deal with a logical problem first.

Just to give you an idea of what this dialogue is not about:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.


In order to make sure we are both yielding the same thing, here is a simple exercise to see the difference between looking into thoughts and into direct experience. Pick a fruit, and place it in front of you.
Close your eyes and imagine that you take the fruit in your hands, feel it. Texture, weight, shape, colour. Imagine that you are smelling it. Take a bite. Feel the sensation of taste.

Then open your eyes and take a look, did anything happen to the fruit in front of you? Is there a sign of bite on it?
Do you need to look in order to know that the bite is not there?

Now take the fruit in the hands and experience the shape, colour, texture, notice details. smell it and bite it. Feel the taste, texture.

What is the difference between the same fruit imagined and experienced?

Best wishes
Rolly

[lochie]

OK, I'll try this.

[lochie]

Hi Rolly,
"here is a simple exercise to see the difference between looking into thoughts and into direct experience. Pick a fruit, and place it in front of you.
Close your eyes and imagine that you take the fruit in your hands, feel it. Texture, weight, shape, colour. Imagine that you are smelling it. Take a bite. Feel the sensation of taste.

Then open your eyes and take a look, did anything happen to the fruit in front of you? NO Is there a sign of bite on it? NO
Do you need to look in order to know that the bite is not there? NO

Now take the fruit in the hands and experience the shape, colour, texture, notice details. smell it and bite it. Feel the taste, texture.

What is the difference between the same fruit imagined and experienced?" There is vividness and intensity in the experienced fruit which is not present in the visualisation.

[JimmyG]

Hi David

There is vividness and intensity in the experienced fruit which is not present in the visualisation.

This is a beautiful description of what is meant by direct experience which cannot be grasped by imagination and thinking, you need to look, to look directly at what is there. Just this. Everyone’s experience is what’s happening in the present moment, doesn’t matter who you are. Even remembering the past or imagining the future, it’s happening now.

The same way you can investigate how choice and decisions are happening now, as a daily basis so to speak. Look at these events as they unfold, in real time, and describe what you see, as plainly as you can. Maybe when you choose to go out or stay in, the ingredients for dinner, what to wear. Give me two examples of any apparent decision-making events.

Ask yourself these questions:

1) As the choice unfolds, can a chooser be experienced? Are ‘you’ the chooser?

2) What factors are taken into consideration when the choice occurs?

3) Is there location of choosing, a choice point?

4) Do thoughts have an influence on what happens?

5) Do thoughts comment on what happens? When, in relation to the event, does the commentary come up?

How is it with intention, free will and control? What do you find?

[JimmyG]

Hello David, how's it going?

[lochie]

Hi Rolly,

Apologies for not responding before, things have been busy…
Two choices
1. Decide which film to take my wife to?
a. My wife says you choose. I narrow it down to three films, one of which is a period drama. My wife likes period dramas so I choose that one. I am the ‘chooser’ in that I decide on a given film. The choice point is the time (7pm?) when we have to leave the house. Thoughts in the sense of the content of the films and a desire to give my wife a pleasant evening have an influence on the decision. After the film there will be more thoughts about content.

2. Decide which of two excellent schools to send my daughter to?
a. This is similar except the stakes are much higher. This decision requires exhaustive research into the school, and a difficult decision based on my daughter’s academic capabilities/potential/interests including extra-mural activities and assessment of which school we think my daughter will be happiest at. This is a three way decision process involving my wife and daughter. But there are real choices and important decisions to be made. And yes I am a chooser.

3. 5) Do thoughts comment on what happens? No.When, in relation to the event, does the commentary come up? Potentially. before, during and after..

How is it with intention, free will and control? What do you find? Yes I can formulate intentions, I have free will over choices and some control.