The Gate

hi, I'm looking for Smudge to guide me, thanks

Hello Auntie D,

Just a few formalities before we start:

LU says: Enter into this process if you are ready and willing to question all your beliefs and assumptions about awakening, if you are ready to face your fears, and if you prefer truth to comfortable lies. Do not enter if your goal is to fix the parts of your life that you think are broken, to embark on a self-improvement project, or to gain some kind of spiritual certification. On this basis are you ready?

can we both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise?

I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. OK with that?

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. That OK with you?

Also to quote, just highlight what you want to quote and the click "Quote" above, when it posts it will have quoted, its a helpful way to communicate easily. Also its a good idea to tick the box below saying notify me when a reply is posted and tapatalk is a good for phones.

So after agreeing to the above...please begin by listing all of your hopes and expectations of what will come out of this process? How would life be to see break the first fetter? Lets here it all...

Delighted to be journeying with you,

Smudge x

hello Smudgey,
fine with all of the formalities.

expectations and hopes are -
that it will work.
that it won't take that long.
that it will be like the experience i had in spain last year, but it will last, or be 'established'.
most of my expectations are based on that experience, or at least my memory of my memory of it.
that there will be a lessening of anxiety, anxiety about the past as it wasn't really 'my' past and of the future because somehow i'll know that everything is okay, i'll not need to know what is going to happen.
i expect all my tendencies will still roll on but with less momentum.
i expect the dharma to become ridiculously clear and beautiful.
i expect that seeing through 'self' is the beginning of a whole process of unravelling, untangling of views assumptions etc.
i expect to have more energy and less 'holding on' around my diaphragm!

I also have some fears -
i fear that if it does work i will loose it again.
also i quite like the sense of being 'in control' of who i am and i fear loosing that.
and i have some fear around being able to be in this process while 'coping' with the ins and outs of normal life.

how's that for starters?
i so appreciate you doing this with me,
love auntie D

Great list of thoughts...thats all they are. Expectations are the biggest block to seeing (especially if you have been conditioned to 'think' seeing through self is going to look a certain way), so good to have named them so we can be open to what actually is. I see a fig tree every day when I leave my flat, if it turned into a plum tree theres a good chance I wouldn't notice because I expect to see a fig tree, so I would....you get the point yes? Let them all go and be open to this being super simple.

We will come back to fears too, just outing them for now.

So:There is no actual Aunty D, nothing in there in control, nothing driving the show, no self at all..as in zero, what comes up when you read this? (more outing! lets have it all...)

x

:There is no actual Aunty D, nothing in there in control, nothing driving the show, no self at all..as in zero

what comes up is frustration. i know the above, i've been trying to get it back into my thick skull for months. what comes up is that it is so much easier said than done. I feel like i'm trapped in some kind of a tight circling that i can't release.
then i imagine that you are going to keep saying this and i am going to keep say 'yes i know but i don't know.'

Great, so we have a bunch of thoughts, some feelings and body sensations dancing about. No I found yet, but we shall zoom in to all of these areas to check fully.

First we need to be sure we are singing from the same hymn sheet (as it were), so all answers need to come from Direct experience (DE) only, to ensure we know what this is and how it is different from thoughts about DE please do this:
Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, think how it will taste. Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, and actually experiencing from this exercise? please answer fully.

okay.
thinking about a raisin, about what it will taste like, is a bit of an effort. trying to conjure something up. mostly a memory of sharpness, kind of distant and flat.
then tasting the raisin, to begin with it is all texture... which i'd not imagined at all, amazingly textured, and hugely chewy and juicy. much more three dimensional than my thinking of the raisin. all the real raisin eating sensations were inside of me, whereas the thought about raisin was outside, even thinking about the the taste of it.
you ask what's the difference? but it is completely different. the only thing that's the same is the idea 'raisin'.

thinking about a raisin....kind of distant and flat.

Brilliant, yes

then tasting the raisin... textured, and hugely chewy and juicy. much more three dimensional..it is completely different

Nice.

the only thing that's the same is the idea 'raisin'.

Please say what this means, whats the same in 'thought about' and DE?

all the real raisin eating sensations were inside of me, whereas the thought about raisin was outside

1. What does the word 'me' point to in DE here
2. Please describe from DE inside and outside.

This is fun hey!

the only thing that's the same is the idea 'raisin'.
Please say what this means, whats the same in 'thought about' and DE?

actually, i don't think there is anything 'the same'. i think chewiness and imagine chewiness but the direct experience isn't 'chewiness', its indescribable, or i would have to describe it moment by moment... teeth sinking in, or is it raisin wrapping round teeth? would have to use a million words.

all the real raisin eating sensations were inside of me, whereas the thought about raisin was outside
1. What does the word 'me' point to in DE here

in order to think about 'raisin' i have to gather myself together, make a 'me', screw my eyes up a little, and 'make' a raisin with my mind.

the 'me' in DE surrounds the experience of raisin chewing. the raisin chewing is centre stage. plus i can feel it right in the middle of my body, its very much happening in an inside world.

2. Please describe from DE inside and outside.

a lot of what is inside i can't really feel, i can mostly feel my contact with the outside. i guess the raisin is that too, contact with something outside. inside there is some thinking, and there is a watching that connects inside and outside.

so outside there is everything that is being watched, or felt, smelt, tasted, heard. though the line between outside becomes blurred, like a whole zone around me which is a mixture of inner and outer, or mostly outer coming in, in the form of the sound of the dishwasher and the heat of the hot water bottle.

i just drank some cold water (water is wet ;-) ) there's just a whole lot of sensations, seeing the water, glass against lips, indescribable cool, wet, water in my warm mouth staying cool on the way down my throat and then disappearing altogether. sensations over. how odd!

This is fun hey![/quote]
it certainly is interesting! :-) sweet dreams Xx

Theres quite a lot here, so take your time to be thorough..

i don't think there is anything 'the same

Check with DE, thinking will lead you a merry dance!

make' a raisin with my mind.

So back to idea's..
can YOU be found in ideas/thoughts? look deeply and describe
and, what is this YOU that screws up YOUR eyes and creates ME's..and then surrounds them!...describe the YOU that is found in DE..

i have to gather myself together, make a 'me

A lot of me's here!!


I think we have some looking to do on inside/outside too, thins might help as a starter:

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

What do you find?

Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

xx

So back to idea's..
can YOU be found in ideas/thoughts? look deeply and describe

well thoughts usually just come and go. but then when you tell me to 'think about what a raisin tastes like' then there is a concentration of energy between the eyes and an effort to 'create' this raisin. that kind of effort, or focussing, or holding on to something, that's what i identify as 'me'. its not a pleasant sense of me.

and, what is this YOU that screws up YOUR eyes and creates ME's..and then surrounds them!...describe the YOU that is found in DE..

on the other hand when enjoying the raisin, there's more relaxation, there is still a sense of 'me' but this time 'me' is the whole field of awareness, at the centre of which is the raisin taste. so me is a big breathing field, which doesn't really have edges.

also there is enjoyment, which i think of a me enjoying.
and in the first example there is tension, effort.
so of everything that is going on it seems that the emotion 'me', though when i look it's just 'effort', just 'enjoyment'.

i mean i can look and see that there is no me to be found in experience, and yet i know i haven't 'let go' of me!

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

What do you find?

erm... how can i look at my face? into my own eyes? my eyes are in my face, looking out. i can sort of see my nose, my cheeks, but i'm so used to filtering them out. there are objects that can be seen, but my face isn't one of them.

Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

sorry, i don't think i really get this. i can point out at objects in the world, its the same as pointing at my leg or my hand. then point at my own face and there is a desire to be able to 'look back', but i can't do that. so then there is just a sensing, of what is there. sometimes it is of something behind the eyes, looking out, or just the sensations of looking.

i don't know if i'm making this more complicated than it should be. i've spent ages with this reflection. but there is just a finger pointing back, at me! pointing at an unseen face, pointing at the place the seeing seems to be coming from. i don't know what's there, there's nothing there really, there's no three dimensional head! and sometimes the seeing seems like it could be coming from anywhere. like there are no eyes and no head.

okay, going to put the dinner on now! Xx

sorry, bad copy reading, it should say -

also there is enjoyment, which i think of as me enjoying.
and in the first example there is tension, effort, which I think of as 'my' effort.
so of everything that is going on it seems that the emotion is what I think of as 'me', though when i look it's just 'effort', or just 'enjoyment'.

effort, or focussing, or holding on to something, that's what i identify as 'me'.

So theres effort, body tightness and thought being identified with here (and awareness and emotion gets identifies with too as you go on). So lets take it slowly and each in its turn.

So, body:

but there is just a finger pointing back, at me

Is this DE (Me), or a story added onto it?

This sounds more like DE..

..just the sensations of looking... nothing there really...the seeing seems like it could be coming from anywhere. like there are no eyes and no head

YES! In DE face is nothing more than an idea, a memory of something seen in a mirror..keep doing the 180 degree backward looking (whenever you get chance), describe this 'nothing' more fully..is it a nihilistic nothing or a vast, spacious, aliveness...and is it separate from the seen?

So in DE when doing the 2way looking is there an inside and outside to be found. Any boundaries in DE?

Great stuff, feeling you looking deeply my friend...xx

i can look and see that there is no me to be found in experience, and yet i know i haven't 'let go' of me!

Interesting story...a character that can choose to let go of itself...hmmm!

but there is just a finger pointing back, at me

Is this DE (Me), or a story added onto it?

its all a story, all there is in experience is just a fascinating, extra thee dimensional, visual object in space.

..just the sensations of looking... nothing there really...the seeing seems like it could be coming from anywhere. like there are no eyes and no head

YES! In DE face is nothing more than an idea, a memory of something seen in a mirror..keep doing the 180 degree backward looking (whenever you get chance), describe this 'nothing' more fully..is it a nihilistic nothing or a vast, spacious, aliveness...and is it separate from the seen?

it is alive, spaciousness, full. its without edges and is somehow all one with the visual field. not even sure if 'visual' is the right word. i'll keep doing the backward looking and see if i can say more later.

So in DE when doing the 2way looking is there an inside and outside to be found. Any boundaries in DE?

there's no boundaries, no edges, no inside, no outside, no eyes, no head... field is the word that comes to mind, a vast open field with various things appearing, a chair, a potted plant, an arm!

Great stuff, feeling you looking deeply my friend...xx

I am! I was looking deeply all through my dreams last night. i've got more time today so i'll stay on the case. thanks so much for coming along with me :-)

it seems like i'm not writing much but i am doing a lot of looking. tell me if you think i need to do anything differently.
see you later Xx