The Gate

Hello,

I would like to get a guide please. I am scared and excited but i know it is what i want to do. I use the word 'I' loosely as i am not sure what part of 'me' is choosing/ desiring.

I thought i should give a little background in case it might inform my guide a little as to where i am at so here is a little backstory-

I was once religious until about 20ish (i am 42 now) as my family brought me up that way. I went looking into lots of religions and religious study and found that for me there is no god. At least not one with a beard of some kind and i didn't like books telling me what i was or how i should live so i left religion behind.

In my twenties i trained to be a counsellor and i worker in private practice. Along the way while studying to be a therapist i came upon the Brighton Buddhist centre and started to meditate. I meditated fairy intensely for about 10 years until i stumbled upon Tony Parsons and non duality. Only then did something kind of go Boom/ bang/ snap.

Nowadays my 'I' is silent for much of the time and due to working with the senses intensely for many, many years when the 'I' comes up i hear where its from and i see it as an illusion which i have created due to a billion memories. The i still hangs around though and it still feels like its sort of 'driving' allot of the time. Its as through my sub-consious is full of 'I' and very quietly and subtlety drives me around.

I would like to see clearly and honestly so please help if you can.

Thank you for reading,

Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

I will be happy to be your guide.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Acually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
Please answer these questions in detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Regards Petrus

Hi Petrus,

''The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Actually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?''

Yes that is what i am seeking Petrus.

''Could you learn the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660''

I think i've done this?

I have read and understand the disclaimer.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

If i see through the illusion of a separate self then i will see that my thoughts based around self are just electrical pulses in an organic brain but that the thoughts have no substance to them and that they are not real, that they do not have to control me and that these thoughts are not ME, not Charlie and they do not have to have the power that i have given them for 42 years.

How will life change?

I will not be 'driven' around by my thoughts. I would hope i could just hear the thoughts come and not feel i must respond to them and do what they say or suggest- I would see that as more freedom.

Fear- i do worry that i might become incredibly boring and that in my spare time out of work (as a healthcare worker) i will just sit in a silence where my brain does nothing. Because i do not really have any interests i fear i will just sit in silence for the rest of my life looking at the walls and doing very little.

How will you change?

I am not sure if this is what you mean but i define the 'you' as Charlie's 'self'. I think i would be more silent in everything i did but i can still feel my fear that i will be a vacant shell with pretty much nothing going on other than staring at walls and feeling not very much.

What will be different?

My mind would not be doing gymnastics anymore about sexual relationships with women which would be nice ( but i also fear it would be boring without all the gymnastics). I also fear i would be on my own forever as most people i have met generally recoil from thinking about no-self so i do find this whole journey isolating and lonely.

I would view other peoples minds and what they say, predominately my patients at work as coming from a belief of a fixed self and i would not react so much to what they say or do as i would know that what they are conveying is from an illusion- i would not take what people say and do so personally.

Regards,

Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

''Could you learn the quote function? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660''

I think i've done this?

Yes you did, thank you.

We ask all these questions about what will change, because many people have unrealistic expectations about the process of liberation. Expectations like that all problems will fade, constantly bliss, etc.
If so, these expectations have to be addressed.
Your expectations are not unrealistic, more kind of funny:

Fear- i do worry that i might become incredibly boring

This could happen, haha, but without anyone to bother there will be no problem.
More likely however is that without a controlling I, life will have his natural flow.

My mind would not be doing gymnastics anymore about sexual relationships with women which would be nice ( but i also fear it would be boring without all the gymnastics).

That would be boring indeed, haha. But also here it is more probable that life without a controlling I will be more natural. However everybody reacts differently and beforehand you cannot tell.

I also fear i would be on my own forever as most people i have met generally recoil from thinking about no-self so i do find this whole journey isolating and lonely.

Maybe you yourself will not be thinking much about no-self anymore?

The i still hangs around though and it still feels like its sort of 'driving' allot of the time.

Ok, lets start:
Where do you locate this I? Does it have a shape?

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

'' I also fear i would be on my own forever as most people i have met generally recoil from thinking about no-self so i do find this whole journey isolating and lonely.''


Maybe you yourself will not be thinking much about no-self anymore?

That is very true.

''The i still hangs around though and it still feels like its sort of 'driving' allot of the time''.


Ok, lets start:
Where do you locate this I? Does it have a shape?

I know the 'I' does not have any shape or actual form. i know it is just a huge amount of neurons firing in an organic brain in my head- which draws on memories that i have and makes the 'I' appear real. I know there is no fixed 'I'.

Regards,

Charlie.

p.s Happy New year Petrus and all.

Hi Charlie,

Happy New year Petrus and all.

Yes, yes, happy happy and all, haha.

i know it is just a huge amount of neurons firing in an organic brain in my head -...

Do you realize this knowing is thought too?
You cant experience with your senses neurons firing, so it is no sensation but thought that makes you say that. You cannot really know that.

...which draws on memories that i have and makes the 'I' appear real. I know there is no fixed 'I'

How memories make the I appear real?
If I is not fixed, what else is it?

With these questions I still am figuring out where you are. So sorry if the questions sound stupid and simple..
To find out more quickly where you believe you are here a couple of questions:
Do you have control over your life?
Do you have control over your body?
The body that appears there right now, is it 'you'?
Does the body see, hear, feel etc?
Do you choose what to think?
Do thoughts control your actions?
What does the word 'I' mean or point to?

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Happy New year Petrus and all.


Yes, yes, happy happy and all, haha.

Lol.

i know it is just a huge amount of neurons firing in an organic brain in my head -...


Do you realize this knowing is thought too?
You cant experience with your senses neurons firing, so it is no sensation but thought that makes you say that. You cannot really know that.

Okay yes.

...which draws on memories that i have and makes the 'I' appear real. I know there is no fixed 'I'


How memories make the I appear real?
If I is not fixed, what else is it?

The memories or picture's of myself in my head make the I appear real but i know that the pictures and memories are not real, have no substance and are not an 'I' and are not Charlie.

Do you have control over your life?

I believe i can make a conscious effort to do one thing or another but i know i cannot control my ageing and eventual death.

Do you have control over your body?

I can direct my thoughts to move my body in 'space' and 'time' (control?) but it will age and die so no i do not have control of that. In short it seems i have some control but not over ageing and death.

The body that appears there right now, is it 'you'?

My body does feel that it is Charlie yes.

Does the body see, hear, feel etc?

This body sees, hears, feels etc yes.

Do you choose what to think?

I can direct my thoughts and thinking but often thoughts arise and shoot off here and there and i then look at them and say ''wow that was all very quick- that is thinking''.

Do thoughts control your actions?

I think, i think about food and what i want to eat and then go and make that food- is that control over action?

What does the word 'I' mean or point to?

For me the 'i' points to this whole system that is my body and brain. Interestingly i don't connect the 'I' with whats in my head but more about this body i have called Charlie for so long.

Regards,

Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

For me the 'i' points to this whole system that is my body and brain

Lets investigate what the body is some more.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching.
With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
Can you feel where the body ends?
Can you feel your ears?

In direct experience does this body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in direct experience?

Do you have control over this body?
Does the body hear?
Or is there hearing?
Are you this body?

Can you locate a mind?

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Can it be known how tall the body is?

no.

Does the body have a weight or a volume?

no

Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?

no

Can you feel where the body ends?

no

Can you feel your ears?

This can yes.

In direct experience does this body have a shape or a form?

no

Is there an inside or outside?

no

What does the body consist of in direct experience?

Just tingling.

Do you have control over this body?

no

Does the body hear?

Without mind there is only hearing happening.

Or is there hearing?

Hearing is happening but not 'TOO' me or BY 'me'.

Are you this body?

No.

Can you locate a mind?

No

Petrus, while doing this, this morning and again now, i know what is happening but i'm scared. Scared i'm going to loose something. Scared i am going to loose what i think of as Charlie. I am flipping between what is and then i almost perceptively 'grab' at some Charlie identity and hold onto it while an internal voice somewhere says 'NOOO' and i feel fear. I'm flipping back and forth.I also sense a huge expanse and an opening space and that's scary too. Lots of fear.

Regards,

Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

Petrus, while doing this, this morning and again now, i know what is happening but i'm scared. Scared i'm going to loose something. Scared i am going to loose what i think of as Charlie. I am flipping between what is and then i almost perceptively 'grab' at some Charlie identity and hold onto it while an internal voice somewhere says 'NOOO' and i feel fear. I'm flipping back and forth.I also sense a huge expanse and an opening space and that's scary too. Lots of fear.

Fear is a natural thing. It is happening as a response. I suspect that the fear you are feeling now might be a natural response to the unknown.
But I assure you there is nothing to fear. If no-self is true, then it is ALREADY true even now, and when you recognize what's already true, nothing will really change, only what you recognize.
Relax, everything already is out of control!

And I am here to walk with you and to guide you (without having any control either, but relaxed).

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Just doing the daily check in- today my body has been full of sensation. My intuition is that I'm sub consciously creating lots of body sensation and anxiety to deflect from being aware that yesterday i realised that there was no Charlie in the body. Even as i write this i feel overwhelmed with sensation and an on-edge feeling and its extremely hard to 'just be aware of overwhelmed-ness/ be with the overwhelmed-ness' so im deflecting in every way i can. I have a feeling that Tony Parsons would say to me- ''and you are deflecting from overwhelmed-ness and that's whats happening and that's perfect as it is'', but it doesn't feel so great. I'm a bit confused Petrus.

Regards,

Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

yesterday i realised that there was no Charlie in the body

Yesterday you realised, but before it was true also. Tomorrow it wil be true too.
You wrote it doenst feel good. Can you elaborate on that?

I'm a bit confused Petrus.

Confused is good, Not knowing is good. It is the natural human condition. Open and vulnerable.

Let me know how you are doing...

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

Yesterday you realised, but before it was true also. Tomorrow it wil be true too.
You wrote it doesn't feel good. Can you elaborate on that?

What i mean is that my body seems to have ramped up sensation so my body is kind of buzzing and that my mind is sort of buzzing too and making me feel un-grounded, anxious and not good.

Its as though just as I'm getting to the truth of things my entire system has created a sort of buzzing edgey-ness so its hard to feel grounded or get any kind of grip on whats going on. Its plainly all very disconcerting.

Regards,

Petrus.

Hi Charlie,

Maybe we wait a few days before continuing?
Or not?

Warm regards, Petrus
PS what timezone or country you are in?

Hi Petrus,

Yes maybe a day or two might be good.

I'm in the u.k. What time zone are you in?

Regards,

Charlie.