Do you want a guide?

[Moonlight]

If you are ready to see through the illusion of the self, please reply here,.

[Jakobo]

Yes please Moonlight - I want a guide! :)

So, this will be my second try here. The last time I got really frustrated with the process and felt like I kept going in circles. In the end I ended up avoiding this site...

But now the urge has come to come back here and finish this once and for all. I'm just tired of it now!

When it comes to what's standing in the way for seeing there's no separat 'I', I'll guess it's the expectations... Expectations of the realisation to be a grand thing. I mean - why would I otherwise even bothered spending these years seeking the truth...!? Oooohh the silliness of it... sometimes it's seen, sometimes not.

Well well, I would be glad and really appreciate if you would be my guide Moonlight!

Jakob

[Moonlight]

Hi Jakob, I'm glad to see you here again then.

Since you were here before, I'm supposing you already know the bit about trying to write at least once daily, writing honestly and from your own experience, and also to try and not read and listen to other books, videos and teachers while we're doing this. I hope you're okay with all of that.

Before we start, could you just write a bit about these expectations that you have? What are they, what do you think will happen from this process?

[Jakobo]

Since you were here before, I'm supposing you already know the bit about trying to write at least once daily, writing honestly and from your own experience, and also to try and not read and listen to other books, videos and teachers while we're doing this. I hope you're okay with all of that.

Yes! I know the rules and will follow them. If I won't be able to post a certain day, I'll try to let you know in advance.
At the moment I started reading Gateless gatecrashers again. If you think it's a good idea for me to stop reading that book and other threads on this forum I'll stop that to.

Before we start, could you just write a bit about these expectations that you have? What are they, what do you think will happen from this process?

Well, this enlightening thing has been sold as something grand so to accept that what's happening right now, in this moment to be it, is kinda hard. I mean, I don't feel at total peace at the moment...
What I expect is to feel more ditached to the things happening around me and not get sucked in and kind of being controlled by the events and thoughts being experienced. I've had moments when I've felt more ditached and at ease in the moment which have felt great. This is elusive as I found myself chasing this feeling instead of looking at what's happening in the moment.

I think the heart of my expectations are to be more at peace. I often feel like I'm fighting against life which causes a lot of strain and effort. When I look it's seen that there is no control to be had but still the feeling is of a me pushing against the stream.

[Moonlight]

Hi Jakob. Reading Gatelesss Gatecrashers is fine, but if you feel it might be distracting for you, then let it be for the time being and focus on this conversation.

Thank you for writing your expectations. Nothing too huge but let's leave them for now. Let them go, and we can keep our conversation as a look at what's real and what's not. Simply that

This is elusive as I found myself chasing this feeling instead of looking at what's happening in the moment.

My question to you is, what do you mean when you talk about 'myself'? What does the self mean to you? Please write as much as you want.

Love to you, Moonlight. Btw, my name is Chandi

[Jakobo]

My question to you is, what do you mean when you talk about 'myself'? What does the self mean to you? Please write as much as you want.

Most of the time I would mean and refer to this body and brain that has thoughts running through the head seemingly having some control over what's happening. There are events that's ahppened in life that's only happened to this person, ideas that are unique, a nervous system that is unique, patterns and conditioning that are unique and so on.

But then... investigation happens and the assumption that uniqueness equals a 'me' is seen not to be true. All things in life has a uniqueness to it, it doesn't mean there's an entity controlling the thing.

Referring to 'myself' I might mean this sense of me, the sense of being alive. That's never been questioned so there's always been the assumption that that means there's a 'me' here.

Yesterday when cooking I pondered all of this and huge restistance came. And before I've noticed avoidance too regaring all of this. I don't get these tendencies, forces. But then - who is to get what?! And why would that be important?!

Thank you Chandi! :-)

[Moonlight]

You're very welcome, Jakob. It is a pleasure to talk to you.

Yesterday when cooking I pondered all of this and huge restistance came. And before I've noticed avoidance too regaring all of this. I don't get these tendencies, forces.

Resistance coming up, mind bringing up distractions is normal. Please explain what you mean by 'tendencies, forces'? Are they anything other than sensations/thoughts?

But then... investigation happens and the assumption that uniqueness equals a 'me' is seen not to be true. All things in life has a uniqueness to it, it doesn't mean there's an entity controlling the thing.

Exactly true. Doing great!

Referring to 'myself' I might mean this sense of me, the sense of being alive. That's never been questioned so there's always been the assumption that that means there's a 'me' here.

So let's question the assumption. Does 'sense of being alive' = a 'me'?

Stop for a few minutes. simply look at the screen and see what you're experiencing now. As you're reading the words, simply look at what is actually happening, not what we think is happening. Sense of aliveness is there, reading is happening, but can you actually find an entity that is doing the reading?

Love to you, Chandi

[Jakobo]

Thanks for your kindness Chandi. The effort all you guides put down in all of this is very, very appreciated!

Resistance coming up, mind bringing up distractions is normal. Please explain what you mean by 'tendencies, forces'? Are they anything other than sensations/thoughts?

The feeling is that there is 'someone in there' saying no and being afraid of this investigation. The story goes something like - if there is nothing to loose (a me) then why is there a fear of loosing something.
(It's funny because now when I saw that you had posted a reply my first feeling were of anticipation directly followed by feeling a little afraid and wanting to read something else and not your reply...)

But yes - when looking at direct experience all there is is sensations and thoughts. Everything I just wrote is only thoughts about other thoughts, about other thoughts, about sensations and so on.

So let's question the assumption. Does 'sense of being alive' = a 'me'?

No. It is such a strong belief that the sense of being alive = me, but it cannot be true. The sense of being alive is felt in the body as sensations that kind of moves around and is felt differently all the time.

Stop for a few minutes. simply look at the screen and see what you're experiencing now. As you're reading the words, simply look at what is actually happening, not what we think is happening. Sense of aliveness is there, reading is happening, but can you actually find an entity that is doing the reading?

When reading this there is a lot of thoughts about what is happening making the easiest thing like simply looking into something difficult and blurry. The mind kind of goes blank.
It's like there are layers of thoughts wanting to interpret what is happening (saying thing like there has to be an interpreter for reading to be possible), creating sensations which creates thoughts, creating more thoughts and so on.
But then that's it, no entity doing it all is found.

Lots of love and a happy new year!

[Moonlight]

A very Happy New Year to you too!

Today, I'd like you to pause during your usual activities at various times, and just notice what is going on. Notice the thoughts. For example, I am eating this sandwich. Then, actually LOOK at the experience itself. The feel, the smell, the taste, and if there is actually a doer, an experiencER of all that to be found.

Try this with different experiences, both with eyes first open and then closed.

Observe what the mind is doing, and what the experience is; what is real and what is not.

Please describe me all that you found.

[Jakobo]

Drinking coffee, feeling the heat of it, a sense of numbness on my lips and mouth.
The mind is labelling the experience and trying to explain everything that’s happening. But those moments when the mind is quiet things still happen, life continues. There’s a realization that the mind isn’t necessary in every single moment of life. For a brief moment there is the experience of the direct experience of what’s happening. Often when I think there’s only the direct experience there’s still this thin, almost not noticeable veil of the mind trying to explain what’s happening.

Listening to music. Hearing sounds, feeling sensations from different parts of the body. Closing my eyes only relying on sensations it’s not possible to say for example how my hands are intertwined, there is only a belief in how. All sensations are very direct and sharp in a way. There is no ‘self’ found that is doing or experiencing it all.

Nothing more to report for the moment but will continue looking :)

[Moonlight]

You're doing very well, Jakob. Great observing.

Often when I think there’s only the direct experience there’s still this thin, almost not noticeable veil of the mind trying to explain what’s happening.

Please remember that we are not trying to 'shut the mind up', or make it completely quiet or something. The mind does what it does, i.e., the labeling, the interpretation, the stories, as you've already seen. It is enough to notice, to realize what is happening, to see the stories for what they are.

I'd like you to try another experiment. Please read all the way through, and then do it in one go.

Close your eyes, and focus on something in the body. Could be the feel or sound of the breath, or a sensation in the body. Just feel what is happening, the experience.

Now, put the attention on a sound you can hear. It can be anything, the sound of a bird, or a machine that is running, it doesn't matter.

Open your eyes and write about the experiences. Is there a difference in the two? What about things like distance, separation, what do you find? Is there a delineation in what is happening, and the experience of it? And finally, do you find anything or anyone who is doing the experiencing?

[Jakobo]

I did the experiment a few times during the day when I found the time and the experience varied a bit from time to time. Most of the times I would say that it’s felt to be a difference between the feeling of what is happening and the listening. When feeling it’s felt as if there is a perceiver (in the head) that is registering what is being felt. That is also the case when it comes to listening but not as strongly. There are times though when there’s the experience of just listening.

I feel I have to sit with this some more. I’ve been tired the whole day as I couldn’t fall asleep yesterday so I’m going to spend tomorrow morning with this and hopefully I’ll have more to say then :)

[Moonlight]

Hope you are able to get some good sleep!

No hurry. Try and do this a little more, to really look at what is happening. Is there really a perceiver, or thoughts about one? Is there a difference in the experience of sensations in the body and hearing something 'outside' the body? If you have trouble and start getting frustrated, then drop it. We'll move on, and try it again later.

[Jakobo]

Ok, so I did the experience again this morning and I feel like I'm struggling with this one. When for example I'm sitting down and are feeling the sensation of the soles of my feet it's felt like it's all percieved from the mind. It's felt to be a distance and separation between the sensation and the percieving of it.

Doing this exercise there's a resistance building up towards what the mind is saying, trying to relax the mind, not resisting the mind, just noticing and on and on and around and around it goes...

I think I could need some input in all of thins :) Thanks!

[Jakobo]

I just saw your post when I've posted mine. I'll try to get back to this exercise when I can during the day - and not be so serious about it.

But yes, I slept really good tonight. Thanks :-)