The Gate

Respectfully requesting a Guide because the only thing that matters at this point in my life is to look honestly and to see clearly. I've been quietly "seeking" for over 30 years, most recently via reading numerous books on non-duality…I am deeply and profoundly frustrated, exhausted, and weary of "intellectual" understanding without genuine clarity. So, here I am with a burning desire to truly see and know. The "self," however, seems incredibly sticky, and that is worrisome…

If it is helpful, please know that I have already read and acknowledged the disclaimer, watched the introductory video, read Gateless Gatecrashers, and absolutely agree to post at least once every day. My commitment to these interactions is 100%, with every intention of considered, honest responses.

Thank you in advance.

Sincerely,

Emily

Hi Emily
My name is Sarah and I would be happy to guide you. I will take what you said as your agreeing etc. But can you just check the list for anything that might of been missed! Sorry its so long!

Just so that I know about any time differences, whereabouts do you live? I’m in England.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find. If you've already answered some of these, please forgive any overlap and just fill in the gaps where you haven't, and we'll get started.

Have you looked around the site? Do you know what we do here?

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?
Look forward to working with you.
Sarah xxx

Sarah, thank you so very much for your willingness to interact with me! I appreciate it very much.

I live in the western portion of the US, Pacific Time Zone, and will typically be able to post only in the late evening in my time zone (after work, etc.).

I do agree to post at least once a day, as you mentioned.

I shall indeed respond with 100% honesty, to the best of my ability.

Before interacting again, I will read the article on distinguishing direct experience.

And, I will put aside any other teachings/practices - have already done so as I’m heartily sick of them, and of the story of “me.” Seeing this reality as it is, is of primary focus here.

Should be able to use the quote function when needed - ready to try anyway!

The introductory info, disclaimer, and video have been viewed.

As to your questions...

Have you looked around the site? Do you know what we do here?

I have indeed looked around the site quite a bit, and do understand what is done at LU. However, this is my first time participating in a forum of any sort.

What are your expectations for this process?

At this point - no expectations - I’m actually very tired of my own expectations and just want to let go...

What is it that you are searching for?

I think I would say some kind of “shift” in perspective or clarity that seems to be lacking in life. I feel like I’ve been perched on some sort of precipice for a while, like something significant is “just out of reach.”

How will you know that you found it?

I am not at all sure I will know - I’m hoping I’ll just KNOW. I may be a “hard nut to crack!”

How will this feel?

I have no idea - I only know what I’ve read that other’s have felt. I try to not project what might be in this situation.

How will this change you?

I don’t really expect a big change, just hopefully CLARITY, which seems sadly lacking. Suddenly, writing this has brought on tears, Sarah. I don’t even know why...

I, too, am looking forward to working with you and deeply appreciate your time and efforts.

xxx,

Emily

Hey Emily
I too will be posting after work - but Im sure we will get a rhythm going soon enough! So Im going to poke about a bit to see where you are. So forgive me if I ask you to do some very simple things. OK! So lets get going!

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xx

No problem at all - simple is good. You may "poke about" all you like! :-) I'm grateful we were able to connect so soon.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Sarah, in really letting your questions settle in, I found an image emerging - one which I think represents my answers your questions... The "me" or "self" does feel like it is in the middle of experience, and it's like a solid, very heavy ball about the size of a tennis ball or softball - a ball made up of rubber bands of many, many different colors...tight...contracted...restrictive, the many colors feel like the innumerable thoughts, emotions and physical sensations that make up the "me." It feels fixed, inside the body, and yet does change, but is so very tight all the time, so very controlled. And yes, it does feel uniquely different and separate, but also does become less prominent depending upon experience. Strong, challenging emotions like anger, sadness or frustration (or physical sensations like pain/exhaustion) reinforce it...more contraction, more substance to it...and it does feel like it owns the body, thoughts and feelings it experiences....

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Yes, to your description, it does feel made up of all those qualities you listed. This self believes that it does decide, choose, act and places great emphasis on trying to somehow feel safely in control. This self heaps responsibility upon itself, and ends up feeling very heavy and weighted all the time.

However, once in a while, upon awakening in the morning, the self is very momentarily not noticed/experienced, and the heaviness is not apparent. Then, suddenly, the self comes to the forefront again with a barrage of thoughts, usually thoughts that promote worrying about something from the day before, etc.

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

At first, the self seems to reside in the physical body/head regions, around the base of the skull. That is certainly where a lot of tension/sensation is felt. But, with quiet reflection, it's difficult to pinpoint any precise reference point for the self. I cannot actually find any separate entity that is "self," though it still feels like it is there.

You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

There is a brief sense of release and relaxation physically, a little thrill and a feeling of relief. Then thoughts start scrambling around trying to "understand" it and own it. Once the thoughts get going, fear/dismay that it may never be truly known or seen arise as well. There is a great desire that it be true, but also fear/resistance in case it may not be true for "me."

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?

No, nothing outside the present moment can exist, because it would only be a thought/memory or thought of the future...just thoughts, and they'd still be in the present...I think!! I can't actually find anything outside of the present moment, and yet there is so much self-energy caught up in "past" and "future'...

Hmmmm. Permanent right now...right now is always full of changing thoughts, emotions, sensations, physical things - which never stay the same - none of that seems permanent. The only thing which ever seems permanent to me is a sense of being - a sense of an existence with which I do identify, an existence that is always present, no matter what else happens to the body, thoughts or emotions, opinions, etc.

I will stop for now. Thank you for these "simple" questions. I think they've melted my brain. :-) Hopefully you've not gotten eyestrain.

Big Hug,

Emily

Hi Emily

The "me" or "self" does feel like it is in the middle of experience, and it's like a solid, very heavy ball about the size of a tennis ball or softball - a ball made up of rubber bands of many, many different colors...tight...contracted...restrictive, the many colors feel like the innumerable thoughts, emotions and physical sensations that make up the "me." It feels fixed, inside the body, and yet does change, but is so very tight all the time, so very controlled. And yes, it does feel uniquely different and separate, but also does become less prominent depending upon experience. Strong, challenging emotions like anger, sadness or frustration (or physical sensations like pain/exhaustion) reinforce it...more contraction, more substance to it...and it does feel like it owns the body, thoughts and feelings it experiences....

And do you want rid of ‘this’? What wants rid of if applicable? What carries ‘this’ weight? What reinforces it?

Yes, to your description, it does feel made up of all those qualities you listed. This self believes that it does decide, choose, act and places great emphasis on trying to somehow feel safely in control. This self heaps responsibility upon itself, and ends up feeling very heavy and weighted all the time.

Can a thought think? Do you actually experience a thought that thinks? If a thought cant think – what is deciding choosing etc?

However, once in a while, upon awakening in the morning, the self is very momentarily not noticed/experienced, and the heaviness is not apparent. Then, suddenly, the self comes to the forefront again with a barrage of thoughts, usually thoughts that promote worrying about something from the day before, etc.

Re read this sentence – Look at what started up here – the self or something else? Without the thoughts – what was happening? Outside of thought – what was wrong with right now?

Hmmmm. Permanent right now...right now is always full of changing thoughts, emotions, sensations, physical things - which never stay the same - none of that seems permanent. The only thing which ever seems permanent to me is a sense of being - a sense of an existence with which I do identify, an existence that is always present, no matter what else happens to the body, thoughts or emotions, opinions, etc.

Well noticed and lovely.

I will stop for now. Thank you for these "simple" questions. I think they've melted my brain. :-)

LOL – Let me know if I give you too much!
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hello Sarah,

And do you want rid of ‘this’? What wants rid of if applicable? What carries ‘this’ weight? What reinforces it?

I would be lying if I didn't admit that I DO want to be rid of all the contraction and heaviness, or at least be able to detach from it somehow... Now I'm a bit stumped, because I'm not sure exactly WHAT wants rid of "this" or WHAT is carrying this weight...but it does seem that THOUGHTS reinforce it. Maybe I'm getting terribly muddled up now!! This is definitely bringing up emotion/frustration.

Can a thought think? Do you actually experience a thought that thinks? If a thought cant think – what is deciding choosing etc?

NO, a thought cannot think - doesn't make sense, so I can't possibly experience a thought that thinks. So, the deciding, choosing and acting must come from elsewhere, if the self is actually just another thought or bundle of thoughts. I don't understand where the impression of personal decision and control comes from...more thoughts, thoughts reinforcing feelings, etc.? That false sense of personal choice/control creates a lot of stress...more muddle.

Re read this sentence – Look at what started up here – the self or something else? Without the thoughts – what was happening? Outside of thought – what was wrong with right now?

It seems that all the heaviness started when THOUGHT started up. Truly nothing wrong with right now, nothing "happening" outside of the thoughts. The emergence of thinking seems to kick off a lot of rubbish. The thoughts seem extremely sticky all the time, though. Sadly, it's as if these out-of-control thoughts are running everything and driving me crazy!!!

Sorry, Sarah. I seem to be going in circles today. I'm trying hard to really SEE, rather than give in to the temptation to regurgitate what I may have read in the past. I'm feeling quite hopeless, but am grateful for your every question.

Your challenging but appreciative friend,

Emily

Hi Emily
Some lovely noticing’s!

I would be lying if I didn't admit that I DO want to be rid of all the contraction and heaviness, or at least be able to detach from it somehow...

OK – now notice that as a thought expectation – that you expect these things to go or lesson. Just take note of it – that’s all that’s needed. OK!

Now I'm a bit stumped, because I'm not sure exactly WHAT wants rid of "this" or WHAT is carrying this weight...but it does seem that THOUGHTS reinforce it. Maybe I'm getting terribly muddled up now!! This is definitely bringing up emotion/frustration.

WELL SEEN! Now look again at what is frustrated and muddled – is it thoughts again? And once located and seen as a thought – look for what happens – if anything!

NO, a thought cannot think - doesn't make sense, so I can't possibly experience a thought that thinks. So, the deciding, choosing and acting must come from elsewhere, if the self is actually just another thought or bundle of thoughts. I don't understand where the impression of personal decision and control comes from...more thoughts, thoughts reinforcing feelings, etc.? That false sense of personal choice/control creates a lot of stress...more muddle.

OK – so some nice deep breathes. Relax. Drop those tight muscles! OK – so through your day have a little look for a decision that seems to get made. Watch it as closely as you can – don’t worry if forgetting happens – just pick up when remembering happens. See if you can see where thought comes in – before, during or after. Do you actually notice most decisions? Or do they just happen – like automatic? Do you decide whether you love or not? Do you decide to like tea or not? Have a little look. Let me know what you notice!

It seems that all the heaviness started when THOUGHT started up. Truly nothing wrong with right now, nothing "happening" outside of the thoughts. The emergence of thinking seems to kick off a lot of rubbish. The thoughts seem extremely sticky all the time, though. Sadly, it's as if these out-of-control thoughts are running everything and driving me crazy!!!

OK – again well seen! Look at what describes exactly what thoughts do and don’t do! Is that another thought or a string of them – kind of like creating a story about how crappy and out of control thoughts are? LOL. Try a little smile when you notice thoughts having a go at other thoughts! See also if thoughts become the enemy - to be shut up - to be stopped. Can you see those thoughts? Are they there? Just see them - nothing more is needed. :)
Emily – wonderful start! Big hugs Sarah xxx

Darling Sarah,

Thank you for your patience and very helpful pointing. My hair is no longer standing on end. :-)

OK – now notice that as a thought expectation – that you expect these things to go or lesson. Just take note of it – that’s all that’s needed. OK!

YES - In re-reading, it's very clear that a thought-expectation was expressed. Noted. Thank you.

Now look again at what is frustrated and muddled – is it thoughts again? And once located and seen as a thought – look for what happens – if anything!

YES!!! Frustrated and muddled - THOUGHTS AGAIN! When it's seen that these feelings are simply derived from thoughts upon thoughts, then upon noticing this, the thoughts seem to lose their intensity and power.

OK – so through your day have a little look for a decision that seems to get made. Watch it as closely as you can – don’t worry if forgetting happens – just pick up when remembering happens. See if you can see where thought comes in – before, during or after. Do you actually notice most decisions? Or do they just happen – like automatic? Do you decide whether you love or not? Do you decide to like tea or not? Have a little look. Let me know what you notice!

NO, I do NOT notice most decisions at all. As I was reading what you wrote, I felt overly warm and removed a scarf from my neck. A moment later I noticed that the decision to do so (and the action) simply happened, with no thought at all. So yes, most decisions do seem to be automatic!! The thought, as far as I can see, actually comes in AFTER, not before or during a decision. And no, no decisions are made by "me" in whether or not to love, or to like tea... (Amusing anecdote: Until about five years ago, I absolutely disliked coffee and had no interest in it, and then suddenly, one day, I simply had to start drinking it! An inexplicable craving arose out of "nowhere" and has remained ever since. No decision was ever made by anyone to drink coffee.) All this made me think about what happens when one is going back and forth and mentally trying to "make a decision." It occurs to me that the decision comes forth when it does, and all that's going back and forth in the mind are opposing THOUGHTS that have absolutely nothing to do with the actual timing/happening of the decision!

Look at what describes exactly what thoughts do and don’t do! Is that another thought or a string of them – kind of like creating a story about how crappy and out of control thoughts are? LOL. Try a little smile when you notice thoughts having a go at other thoughts! See also if thoughts become the enemy - to be shut up - to be stopped. Can you see those thoughts? Are they there? Just see them - nothing more is needed. :)

YEEEEEESSSS! What describes the thoughts is indeed another cranky string of thoughts creating a fabulously tiresome story. The WAR AND PEACE of tiresome stories!!! And yes, there have been many times when THOUGHTS have wanted to shut down or stop other THOUGHTS. Yes, I have noticed the SHARK thoughts trying to swallow up the multitude of annoying MINNOW thoughts...hmmm, like a snake trying to swallow its own tail, I guess. Round and round...no wonder I get so many headaches!

Love to you, my dear.

Emily

Hi Emily

YES!!! Frustrated and muddled - THOUGHTS AGAIN! When it's seen that these feelings are simply derived from thoughts upon thoughts, then upon noticing this, the thoughts seem to lose their intensity and power.

Fabulous! Now see how often you spot these thoughts having a strop – (Yorkshire word for getting frustrated!). Once seen – is there anyone behind these thoughts? Anything behind these thoughts at all? Or is there just emotion rising up, having a strop and going again?
Where do they come from? Where do they go? Do you pre-order them – in other words decide what thoughts to have and when? Can you control them in any way? If so what way?

It occurs to me that the decision comes forth when it does, and all that's going back and forth in the mind are opposing THOUGHTS that have absolutely nothing to do with the actual timing/happening of the decision!

Well seen! Now watch the thoughts trying to claim ownership over decisions. See where the ‘I’ label comes in, what it is applied to, how often it turns up!

YEEEEEESSSS! What describes the thoughts is indeed another cranky string of thoughts creating a fabulously tiresome story. The WAR AND PEACE of tiresome stories!!!

So what exactly can a thought ‘do’? Don’t think this answer – look.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Again Sarah,

Now see how often you spot these thoughts having a strop – (Yorkshire word for getting frustrated!). Once seen – is there anyone behind these thoughts? Anything behind these thoughts at all? Or is there just emotion rising up, having a strop and going again? Where do they come from? Where do they go? Do you pre-order them – in other words decide what thoughts to have and when? Can you control them in any way? If so what way?

The thoughts are frequently "having a strop," (although that seems to have decreased in the last 36 hours, to be honest) but no, there is nobody behind the thoughts at all, just emotion rising up and then going away again. Don't know exactly where the thoughts/emotions come from or go to, but they simply seem to independently emerge then dissipate later on. No, there is no decision about having or controlling the thoughts - they truly have a life all their own! (It is in "thinking" that they should be controlled by or originated from a responsible "me-entity," that the thoughts seem so troublesome.)

Now watch the thoughts trying to claim ownership over decisions. See where the ‘I’ label comes in, what it is applied to, how often it turns up!

Will do. "I" label is now being watched. (The little brute! :-)

So what exactly can a thought ‘do’? Don’t think this answer – look.

In looking, one sees that a thought can DO absolutely NOTHING except show up. Unless I assign all sorts of emotional/story value to a thought, via the use of other thoughts, and have a really good STROP, there is nothing in a thought that has any intrinsic power. It's a bit of fluff floating past and dissolving away...WOW, never "thought" I'd say that! (LOL).

xoxoxoxo,

Emily

Hi Emily

The thoughts are frequently "having a strop," (although that seems to have decreased in the last 36 hours, to be honest) but no, there is nobody behind the thoughts at all, just emotion rising up and then going away again. Don't know exactly where the thoughts/emotions come from or go to, but they simply seem to independently emerge then dissipate later on. No, there is no decision about having or controlling the thoughts - they truly have a life all their own! (It is in "thinking" that they should be controlled by or originated from a responsible "me-entity," that the thoughts seem so troublesome.)

OK – first see the ‘want’ to be rid of what is deemed negative or troublesome. Do you see that – thoughts wanting something other then what is? Just see it, that’s all.
Second – notice the arising and movement of emotions and thoughts – as if watching clouds crossing the sky. What wants to engage with this movement and explain it all away, to control, to label it as it moves?

Now watch the thoughts trying to claim ownership over decisions. See where the ‘I’ label comes in, what it is applied to, how often it turns up!

Will do. "I" label is now being watched. (The little brute! :-)

Good – keep watching – the little brute is a cagey little brute!

In looking, one sees that a thought can DO absolutely NOTHING except show up. Unless I assign all sorts of emotional/story value to a thought, via the use of other thoughts, and have a really good STROP, there is nothing in a thought that has any intrinsic power. It's a bit of fluff floating past and dissolving away...WOW, never "thought" I'd say that! (LOL).

Wow! Now see if this can be noticed whilst in action! So while decisions are being made, whilst doing is happening, walking, planning whatever. What does thought have power over? Anything? Nothing? Does doing still happen? Do decisions still happen? Happy hunting!
Big Hugs Sarah xxx

OK – first see the ‘want’ to be rid of what is deemed negative or troublesome. Do you see that – thoughts wanting something other then what is? Just see it, that’s all.

Oh yes, thank you, this is seen - a tendency toward thoughts that want something other than "what is." I do definitely see this. "Fixer" thoughts that arise and go toward remedying situations that are already exactly as they should be....

Second – notice the arising and movement of emotions and thoughts – as if watching clouds crossing the sky. What wants to engage with this movement and explain it all away, to control, to label it as it moves?

The "I-thought" is what always wants to engage with this movement of emotions/thoughts, explain it, control it, label it...somehow make "sense" of it and put it away in a nice tidy box.

Now see if this can be noticed whilst in action! So while decisions are being made, whilst doing is happening, walking, planning whatever. What does thought have power over? Anything? Nothing? Does doing still happen? Do decisions still happen? Happy hunting!

Thought has NO power at all. NONE. Doing just happens. Decisions just happen. I can't even believe the amount of time and stress that has been involved in believing that thoughts had power to DO something. All they do is churn around and make things SEEM frothy - if one pays attention to them.

Much appreciation,

Emily

Hey Emily

Oh yes, thank you, this is seen - a tendency toward thoughts that want something other than "what is." I do definitely see this. "Fixer" thoughts that arise and go toward remedying situations that are already exactly as they should be....

And in that moment – under thought - is it ok regardless of what thoughts say or don’t say? Regardless of what’s happening?

The "I-thought" is what always wants to engage with this movement of emotions/thoughts, explain it, control it, label it...somehow make "sense" of it and put it away in a nice tidy box.

What can thought 'Know'? Anything?
What happens when this is just watched and allowing happens?

Thought has NO power at all. NONE. Doing just happens. Decisions just happen. I can't even believe the amount of time and stress that has been involved in believing that thoughts had power to DO something. All they do is churn around and make things SEEM frothy - if one pays attention to them.

Is there any idea of control anywhere? A held onto belief?
How do you feel?
Hugs Sarah xxx

And in that moment – under thought - is it ok regardless of what thoughts say or don’t say? Regardless of what’s happening?

Yes, underneath I know it IS actually OK regardless of what thoughts say/don't say, regardless of what's happening, yet I don't always immediately notice that. Sometimes I have to work my way toward remembering it's "OK." LOL

What can thought 'Know'? Anything?

NO, I'm certain that thought cannot KNOW anything at all.

What happens when this is just watched and allowing happens?

Still working with this...but my heart is telling me that "watching" and "allowing" are what let the underlying peace in every situation shine forth, regardless of seeming circumstance.

Is there any idea of control anywhere? A held onto belief?

Yes, to be honest, the idea of control still slips in during the day and is sometimes believed - but now, often NOT believed.

How do you feel?

There has been a lightness that I've not felt in a long while, a lessening of exhaustion, and a little giddiness as well, for about two-to-three days. (Last evening and today were a bit more challenging and there was a feeling of unconsciously slipping back somewhat into old patterns/entertaining doubts - but not entirely.) Something is afoot! :-)

Love,

Emily