The Gate

Hello,
My name is Karunamegha and I would like to go through the Gate to liberation. I have been practising meditation and Buddhism for many years and this has improved my life and vision hugely, however I think there is much that I have yet to reach.

Hi Karunamegha,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jonathan. I would be very happy to gude you.

What would going through the Gate mean to you? What might you hope to gain by this process? When you say 'much that I have yet to reach', do you have expectations? What might these be? When you say that meditation and Buddhism have improved your life amd vision hugely, how soes that manifest?


Kind regards,

Jonathan.

Hi Jonathan

Thank you for accepting to be my guide.

I will answer your questions.

By going through the process I would hope to gain a better understanding of existence. I would also hope to be a more effective person in terms of myself and others, but perhaps by just 'being'. I do realise that somehow I will not feel like a separate self anyway.

So these are also my expectations too.

Buddhism and Meditation have inspired my life by enabling me to concentrate better, although as I get older I do wonder if this is now diminishing. I have come to appreciate myself more and others. I have greatly improved my capacity for friendship. I am more honest and ethical. I am more aware of calmer, peaceful states of consciousness, and the immensity of the inner universe.

Kind regards

Karunamegha

Hi Karunamegha,


Thank you for your reply.


You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

You've already talked about some of your hopes and aims , but I'd like to ask you to go a bit deeper and explore the following questions too?

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Whatever comes up as a response, either immediately or after a little reflection, it is important to write these down.

Looking forward to hearing from you. Sorry I couldn't respond to your post earlier today. I will usually post at least once a day, more often if time allows. By the way, I am in the UK. What time zone are you?


Warm regards,

Jonathan.

Hi Jonathan

Thank you for the information. My time zone is the same as yours, I am also in the U.K.

You ask how will Life change? I don't think it will really, just my apprehension of it. It may feel softer and freer, with more perhaps more connectedness, but in a freer way.

How will I change? Some friends of mine who have been through seem much more present, others not so different. It would be good to be more present, but then there is no 'I' to be this.

Nothing will be different, just an apprehension.

Kind regards

Karunamegha

Hi Karunamegha,

Thank you for your answers.

You ask how will Life change? I don't think it will really, just my apprehension of it. It may feel softer and freer, with more perhaps more connectedness, but in a freer way.

How will I change? Some friends of mine who have been through seem much more present, others not so different. It would be good to be more present, but then there is no 'I' to be this.

Nothing will be different, just an apprehension.

Good. A lack of unrealistic expectations is important.


Can I assume that you are happy to agree to the 'ground rules' I mentioned? If not,
please let me know?

Now, please tell me what you think 'you' are?


Kind regards,
Jonathan.

Oh...

Just a friendly warning.

After a while you get automatically logged out of this forum.
It can happen that, having spent a while compising a reply, you lose your work. It's a good idea to copy your work to computer memory every so often, or even write your replies in a different text editor.



Jonathan

Hi Jonathan

I am happy with the ground rules. I'm not very computer literate and am doing this on an I-pad. Don't think quotes system can be used on this.

What do I think 'I' am? Now I seem to be a collection of bones, flesh, etc, plus the senses and most importantly consciousness, but I'm told this is not the case. Occasionally I am in a state where there is just emptiness and I am not aware of any of these things or the 'I' either and then there is a peacefulness and freedom.

I do believe in a rebirth whereby my consciousness becomes another life. If there is no 'I' how can this happen?

Ultimately there is just emptiness and no me, but I don't have a strong or constant enough apprehension of this.

Kind regards

Karunamegha

Hi Karunamegha,

Thank you for agreeing to the ground rules.

As for the quote function, I use an androd tablet and I think i-pad is similar. To use quote you have to choose 'full editor' (next to 'quick reply') at the bottom of the post. Then, at the top of the box into which you write, you'll find options including 'quote'. When you wish to quote something, go to the relevant bit of text, keep your finger down on the bginning of the line to be selected and a couple of pointers appear. You can drag the second of these pointers with your finger until the text is highlighted. Then you should find the 'copy' option to the top right of the window. So, copy the blovk of text and scroll to your new post. Now press the 'quote' option and brackets will appear. Get your cursor inside the brackets and widen them using the space bar. Then, with cursor inside the brackets you find and choose the 'paste' option. The text appears inside the quote marks. And you are away. Sounds horribly complicated but it is quite easy once you have tried it a couple of times. :-)

Ok. Now,

Now I seem to be a collection of bones, flesh, etc, plus the senses and most importantly consciousness, but I'm told this is not the case.

What we do here at LU is LOOK directly at immediate experience to find out what is really going on.

Do you feel as if you 'are your body'? Or are 'in your body'?
Where would you say consciousness 'is' or 'is experienced'? For instance is it in or around the body or head?

Occasionally I am in a state where there is just emptiness and I am not aware of any of these things or the 'I' either and then there is a peacefulness and freedom.

Can you say any more about this? Does it happen often? Are there particular circumstances for this state?

I do believe in a rebirth whereby my consciousness becomes another life. If there is no 'I' how can this happen?

If there is no 'I' how does anything happen?
Nevertheless, would you agree that a lot of things still do seem to happen?

This brings us to an important consideration.

What comes up when I say 'there is no 'self' anywhere, nor has there ever been in the past nor will there ever be in the future. 'I' is an illusion'.


Best wishes,

Jonathan.

Hi Jonathan

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain the workings of 'quotes'.

Going back to 'occasional' states of emptiness. One instance was about 10 years ago when I was on a 7 week Buddhist Ordination retreat and in preparation for beginning a new 'ilfe' and being given a new name at the actual ordination . We spent several days doing a meditation practise on the 6 elements, whereby you focus on each element in turn becoming aware of it first in nature and then in your own body and then letting go of your own owning of the element. (Are you a Buddhist? I know some guides are?). I have experienced this emptiness in meditation a few times over the last number of years. This morning when sitting down to meditate I decided to do this practice and felt, because of the LU, that I was very aware of the process, especially seeing each element that I could think of as 'me' mingling with the elements in the universe. Space has always been the most scarey one to let go of for me, but somehow the space I take up just mingled into the universe. Then consciousness and thought that too also let go and mingled. A sense of elation, interconnectedness with the elements, letting go.

Really understand the teaching of rebirth now, in that it has sunk in In a deeper way in that elements come together and are perceived as a life.

A wonderful sense of freedom to drop the illusion of' 'I'. Need to be with this for longer to be completely free of the old habit.

With love

Karunamegha

Hi Karunamegha,

Thanks for your reply. And thanks for the elaboration and description of 'your experience' with the Six Element meditation. Yes, I once went through a similar retreat and period practising Six Element.

This morning when sitting down to meditate I decided to do this practice and felt, because of the LU, that I was very aware of the process, especially seeing each element that I could think of as 'me' mingling with the elements in the universe. Space has always been the most scarey one to let go of for me, but somehow the space I take up just mingled into the universe. Then consciousness and thought that too also let go and mingled. A sense of elation, interconnectedness with the elements, letting go.

I understand this. And speaking purely from personal experience the Six Element practice was the closest thing to the realisation that is aimed for by Direct Pointing.

A wonderful sense of freedom to drop the illusion of' 'I'. Need to be with this for longer to be completely free of the old habit.

Are you saying that you have seen through the illusion of 'I'? If so I would like to ask you a few questions?

Should I assume that you are still.interested in the direct pointing that we do here and being guided towards realisation of 'no self'? If so, please try to answer any specific questions that I ask, as these will be quite directed.

So I will ask again ...Do you feel as if you 'are your body'? Or are 'in your body'?
Where would you say consciousness 'is' or 'is experienced'? For instance is it in or around the body or head?

And...What comes up when I say 'there is no 'self' anywhere, nor has there ever been in the past nor will there ever be in the future. 'I' is an illusion'. What do you think or feel about that? Is there any nervousness or fear, for example?


Best wishes,

Jonathan.

Hi Jonathan

Oh dear, I think my post this morning has somehow got lost. After going out Christmas shopping this afternoon, I am not in the same frame of mind as I was this morning.

Of course I want to continue with Direct Pointing, i am eternally grateful to have understood the six element practice and no separate self so much more deeply and clearly. I'm sorry I did not answer all of your questions yesterday, I was over excited.

I do not feel I am body or in a body. If consciousness is experienced at all, it is In the universe interconnected with matter.

I do not feel any nervousness when you say there is no self anywhere. It's a relief, it seems arrogant now to have thought there was a self. I have an image of everything, as specks of dust, or like rain drops floating in the universe.
'I' was just an illusion.

Warm wishes

Karunamegha

Hi Karunamegha,

Oh dear, I think my post this morning has somehow got lost. After going out Christmas shopping this afternoon, I am not in the same frame of mind as I was this morning.

Don't worry undully about the state of mind, though loosing your work is annoying. Wonder if it had to do with being 'logged out' of this forum? That happens automatically and everyone has this experience of their post diappearing at some stage. It is a good idea to 'copy' your work to i-pad memory just before you hit the Submit button. That way, if you find yourself facing the 'log-in' screen at least your writing is not actually lost and can be pasted and submitted again very quickly. Hope this helps.

Of course I want to continue with Direct Pointing,

Good. I just neeced to check.

I do not feel I am body or in a body. If consciousness is experienced at all, it is In the universe interconnected with matter.

OK. That is interesting.

What happens if you pinch your arm slightly? Is there something that registers pain?

I'm not suggesting you hurt yourself but try this.

Is there an arm that 'experiences pain'?

Is there an experiencer of experience?

I do not feel any nervousness when you say there is no self anywhere. It's a relief, it seems arrogant now to have thought there was a self. I have an image of everything, as specks of dust, or like rain drops floating in the universe.
'I' was just an illusion.

Ok good.

I am not in the same frame of mind as I was this morning.

Ok, so if there is no self, if 'I' is just an illusion, what is the 'I' that is 'not in the same frame of mind'? Please tell me about that one.


Jonathan.

Hi Jonathan

What comes together to be perceived as arm can feel a perceived pain, but it is not self, just a perception.

There is not really an experience just a perceived experience .

The 'I' that is 'not in the same frame of mind' again is just a perception conjured up by the mind, not real.

Best wishes

Karunamegha

Hi Karunamegha,

What comes together to be perceived as arm can feel a perceived pain, but it is not self, just a perception.

Good.

These words are being read. What are they being read by?

The 'I' that is 'not in the same frame of mind' again is just a perception conjured up by the mind, not real.

In what sense conjured?

You say 'not real'? In what sense is this thought 'I am not in the same frame of mind' not real?

Nevertheless do you observe that thoughts do appear quite often?

Observe some thoughts as they appear and disappear.

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. is it possible?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?



Jonathan ♥