Liberation Unleashed Forum The Gate
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https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/viewtopic.php?t=3385
No problem.I INTEND TO CONTINUE MY DHARMA AND MEDITATION PRACTICE AND TO TAKE THIS PROCESS DEEPLY SERIOUSLY. I DON'T SEE THEM AS SEPARATE.
We're primarily going to be investigating the insubstantial (illusory) nature of the separate self. Once you notice this (and keep noticing it) then it is obvious that where there is no substance, there can be no permanence. We will also investigate control as part of this process, and fear if necessary.TO DEEPEN INSIGHT INTO IMPERMANENCE & TO STRENGTHEN THE PROCESS OF LOVING LOVING THAT IS LESS INFLUENCED BY FEAR AND THE DESIRE TO CONTROL.
Yes, it is a question about the future and the unknown, and as such is asked in order to bring up any ideas or expectations that have been worked up on the basis of a separate self being projected into the future where something happens to "it". So yes, treat it as a leap into the unknown and put any expectations to one side.I'M AFRAID I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IT'S A QUESTION ABOUT THE FUTURE AND THE UNKNOWN, THIS IS LEAP INTO THE DARK AFTER ALL, OR IS THE LIGHT? I WILL BE BETTER ABLE TO ANSWER THAT ONCE I'M SUCCESSFUL. BUT BASED ON SOME EXPERIENCE OF A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF IMPERMANENCE AND INTUITION, I IMAGINE THAT DOUBT IN THE DHARMA WILL COME TO AN END, CONFIDENCE WILL BLOSSOM AND LOVE WILL BE AN EVEN MORE CONSISTENT COMPANION. AND I WOULD BE DEEPLY HAPPY TO IMAGINE THAT 'I' WILL BE AN EVEN GREATER FORCE FOR GOOD IN THIS WORLD.
When you refer to an 'I' that is successful, an 'I' that has a deeper understanding and intuition, an 'I' that is confident and has no doubt in the dharma, what does this 'I' refer to in direct experience?
I'm glad to hear it. Whilst this will be a thorough going process, leaving no stone unturned whatsoever, it doesn't need to be heavy and serious. It is very much of the nature of an experiment, in which we bring a playful sense of curiosity and openness in which anything can happen. So yes, fun, exciting and challenging is the way to go.When I first read your questions above I laughed out loud! (LOL) Thinking this is going to be fun, exciting and challenging! Good and difficult questions!
I was actually referring to the 'I' that you referred to, in the sense that you conceive of an 'I' that will do all of these things. We're not actually looking at the content of the events or experiences that could happen to the 'I', but the actual concept of the 'I' itself.When you refer to an 'I' that is successful, an 'I' that has a deeper understanding and intuition, an 'I' that is confident and has no doubt in the dharma, what does this 'I' refer to in direct experience?
Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?
I was actually referring to the 'I' that you referred to, in the sense that you conceive of an 'I' that will do all of these things. We're not actually looking at the content of the events or experiences that could happen to the 'I', but the actual concept of the 'I' itself.
So I will ask again;
When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience?
Is it located somewhere? does it have a shape? A size? A quality?
Warm wishes,
Yes, I take it as a good sign actually. Something is clearly being threatened, I'm being threatened by a radically different perspective. I feel like I'm playing chess with someone much better than me! Though I only hope check mate results in defeat for limitation and ignorance!Thank you for your honest and heartfelt reply, fear is clearly arising in response to these initial questions and that's totally understandable.
When I read this I had two responses, first was relief and gratitude, then I got a bit annoyed! Why didn't he or she tell me before? It's now much clearer, now I know much more better what you are talking about.I think it's also helpful at this point if I give you something of a definition of Direct Experience (which I will now capitalise in order to highlight its centrality).
I'm going to define Direct Experience as being comprised of nothing more than sensations, thoughts and an unmistakable sense of aliveness. Whenever I refer you to Direct Experience, this is where I am asking you to answer from.
Sounds like a simple, sound suggestion.Just give yourself a few moments to settle where you are, and watch the breath coming and going for ten breaths.
OK, let's have another go. Around my chest area I can feel my heart beat and mildly unpleasant sensations that I label as mild anxiety. In my jaw, cheeks and legs are feelings of release and energy. In the back of my neck and jaw rushes of energy (priti). I re-read the first part of the quote above and in my lower jaw and chest fear arose. Actually this process is not easy to keep up with because energy and sensations are changing so quickly that I can't really keep up! I type slowly! I had the thought, 'What's this got to to do with an illusory self?' I am wondering if I've got this right, what will you think? I wonder if she'll put me into check? :) I'm sure she will! GOL = Giggle Out Loud!Considering my questions again, look into Direct Experience and tell me what arises, exactly as it is experienced.
If fear comes up, describe this experience. What is it made of?
In Direct Experience, where is the "me" or "I" that is scared or that can be killed by this process?
Tell me what is found, just as it is found.
This is great, a lovely description of sensations arising.OK, let's have another go. Around my chest area I can feel my heart beat and mildly unpleasant sensations that I label as mild anxiety. In my jaw, cheeks and legs are feelings of release and energy. In the back of my neck and jaw rushes of energy (priti). I re-read the first part of the quote above and in my lower jaw and chest fear arose. Actually this process is not easy to keep up with because energy and sensations are changing so quickly that I can't really keep up! I type slowly! I had the thought, 'What's this got to to do with an illusory self?' I am wondering if I've got this right, what will you think? I wonder if she'll put me into check? :) I'm sure she will! GOL = Giggle Out Loud!
Where is "I' in Direct Experience? What a mystery! Well I could tell you about sensations and energy in various parts of my body, I could tell you about priti. I could tell you about feelings of being moved of a sense of vitality but honestly I can't keep up with the details. Broadly speaking I feel open and alive. Forehead feels relaxed and pleasant. I could go on and on like that but the process would never end! Again thoughts of, "have I got the right end of the stick?" What will she say? Sensations in my buttocks unpleasant' they feel sore. Shoulders a bit tight and unpleasant. Dava, this could go on and on!
For now I'll stop there and see what you say!
Well lets have a look."What's this got to do with the illusory self?"
I glad I seem to have got something right!! :) LOLThis is great, a lovely description of sensations arising.
So at what point does this rich arising of sensations become fear?
How does the fear operate?
I'm struggling to understand your language a little. Now a little anxiety has arisen! Sensations become anxiety with anxiety provoking 'views' or 'thoughts', egs. "will she get annoyed with me?", "will she withdraw her love from me?"Well lets have a look.
Does the arising of these sensations in any way point to a separate entity called "I" that is "having" the experience?
That is, did you or can you find a separate self to which these sensations happen?
If so, how does the self that is separate from these sensations manifest?
Well you just answered my original question (describing how fear operates) through your description of anxiety.I'm struggling to understand your language a little. Now a little anxiety has arisen! Sensations become anxiety with anxiety provoking 'views' or 'thoughts', egs. "will she get annoyed with me?", "will she withdraw her love from me?"
Separation occurs when we seemingly fix the flux, or apparently isolate something from it, in this case the sense of a "me" that operates separately from the flux, separate from the totality.I'm struggling to relate to your word 'separate'. I can see that sensations are in flux, I can not own or fix them. I can not say in any fixed way that they are me or mine.
Some more rich observations from Direct Experience here, but there are also a few assumptions and ideas nestled within. Rather than address these specifically, I think it would be best if we paved the way for a more natural unravelling, by looking at what is, rather than ideas about what is.I am going to say that (for now) that there IS a separate process, these sensations are manifesting in time and space, right here and now, for example there are some unpleasant sensations right now in my lower back as I write. As I investigate them, I notice they are slightly throbbing and fluctuating all the time, they are changing, I can not completely control them. But it is THIS particular psycho-physical organism they are happening to and not to you or my friend in the next room. But I can not say they are me or mine as life right now for me is both much broader and richer (I could tell you also about lots of pleasure right now in my ever changing experience too) and the sensations of discomfort are not fixed and permanent. If you are asking me to look right here and now, this is what I can say. But if I reflect a little I can say this body came into being and continues to be alive as result of countless causes and conditions, like my mother and father meeting, and farmers harvesting the food I ate today and in that sense my sensations and experience are not separate from the rest of creation. This way of thinking quite often, like now, moves me. Is this what you're getting at? Somehow I think not.
This feels like a very important sentence, I can,t say I,m there yet but I,ve read it 4-5 times and and somthing has stirred!Separation occurs when we seemingly fix the flux, or apparently isolate something from it, in this case the sense of a "me" that operates separately from the flux, separate from the totality.
I chose heasdphones I brought to the internet cafe. I noticed that I could only really have a sense of one side of the headsphones and that my attention and interest quite easily wondered off. Them I looked at the headphones and felt some facsination to see it much more clearly and to notice so much more, including dust in some parts but them strangely I felt kind of love or affection towards my headphones.Take of an object in your house that you are familiar with.
It can be anything really, a piece of fruit or a vegetable, your computer, whatever, you just need to know what it looks like.
Now think about this object, so that you have what you think is a reasonably clear picture of what it looks like in reality.
When you have done this, look at the actual object.
What do you notice?
In my minds ear when I recollected the song and performance I quickly came alive with strong experiences of pleaasueable energy in my neck and head but then after a little while I got anxious, then I asked myself why and the thought that maybe I,ve got this 'wrong' came to mind. Wow, just listened to it with eyes closed:I want you to imagine a piece of music that you are familiar with (and have access to).
Something that you can easily evoke in your "minds ear".
Listen to how you think the music sounds.
Now I want you to play that piece of music and actually listen to it.
What do you notice?
Next time you go to eat something I want you first to imagine eating it, imagine the taste and texture of it in your mouth. Then actually eat it and tell me, was it the same experience?What did Iearn? When I imagine with the mind I CAN experience and bring to life 'things' and can even have quite strong experiences but with the direct, immediate experience generally speaking the expeerience is more intense and detailed. And there's less effort involved in the direct version.