The Gate

Aloha,

My name is Jen Freeman, and I would love to connect to a guide and begin this process. A bit about me: I'm in my 40's, live in the States, am blessed with wonderful teachers and have been practicing intently for years qi gong, meditation, and the study of No Self. I have had glimpses of the lightness beyond the self thought, and respect the profound power of inquiry. I downloaded the app to my phone and loved it! I had some great moments there, especially in the fear section. Oh the fear of protecting a self image! :)

Thank you so much for considering my request, I very much look forward to this process.

Kindest regards,
Jen

Hey Jen,

(Am I right to call you Jen?).

I am willing to accompany you in this looking process.

First could you read and agree to the following:

1. Post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond as simply and directly as possible from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation, even leaving aside other people's LU threads. Really put all your attention into looking for yourself into this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:- viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too - http://www.liberationunleashed.com Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Also it would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).

You could start by telling me what (if anything) you would like to be different from how it is right now. Just be honest. So we will begin by looking into what expectations are there.

Cheers

Mark

Aloha Mark,

Thank you very much for your offer to be my guide in this process.

I have looked at and agreed to all the points you mentioned in your post, with the exception of the quote function. The link was not active, and I looked in the FAQ's and didn't see one addressing that. Could you please resend it? I will review it right away when I receive it. I am ready to begin, if that works for you without having reviewed the quote function.

For now, I will answer you without quotes.

What I would like to be different from how it is right now:

Stop investing the "I" thought with reality and weight, so that I stop listening to it as if it is a real thing directing my life. Open up to the joy that I feel bubble up right below it when I do that, even for a second, as I experienced reading the pointers on my iphone. Be free from the weight and conditioning that I have assumed was real, part of a "self"--my self--so that I may allow the true functioning of what IS there to shine forth. Relax into the truth that is the flow of all life and drop the illusion of controlling it, or that there is anyone to control it.

Ah, the limitations of subject/object based language!

My time zone is US Mountain Time Zone (GMT - 6:00).

Also, a bit on "aloha": Do you know the word? One of my homes is Hawai'i, and that word expresses an essence there. Hello, Goodbye, I love you, I see the Essence of Life in you. It is a rich word from a beautiful place.

Thank you Mark,
Jen

Hi Jen

Regarding the quote function, http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 is the link. If this does not work as a link, you could cut and paste this text into your browser bar. If you still have difficulty, the instructions are in the second of the three announcements at the top of The Gate subforum.

Thanks for the Aloha reference. Lovely.

Thanks also for the response about 'what you would like to be different'.

Stop investing the "I" thought with reality and weight, so that I stop listening to it as if it is a real thing directing my life

A question arises: what is there there to 'stop listening to it'? Don't answer with rationale, but rather with what is found in immediate first-hand experience NOW.

In our investigation, long or short, we will be looking at two types of experience: 1) direct, first-hand NOW experience, the sensations which come up in the moment via the senses - this is all that can actually be KNOWN i.e. experienced now, and 2) indirect, second-hand experience: this is thought, passed on by thinking, conditioning, other teachings, assumptions, deductions... and actually isn't experience at all, but is often assumed to be such. Where a response comes from 2), expect to get (gently) picked up on it and pointed back towards 1).

Then I would like you to go to the LU main menu, the Home section. There you will (or may already have) find under FAQ the second title is: "What Liberation Unleashed is not....". This lists a number of expectations that can come up, projections of what liberation may be. I would like you to read through the list, each statement in turn, and let me know what comes up in the direct experience. Let me know if any of them cause a bodily tightening, or any other reaction.

Warmly

Mark

Aloha Mark,

Thanks for the text edit link. I think I got it correct, I'll see when I publish :).

A question arises: what is there there to 'stop listening to it'? Don't answer with rationale, but rather with what is found in immediate first-hand experience NOW.

the sense of knowingness, that which knows.

Ah. But that sense of knowingness isn't a thing, it is a knowingness that knows, as in a verb. I can feel a sense of pressure in my head as I'm writing this, a tightening. So there isn't any there there to stop listening, there is only listening or not listening. Wow, pressure behind the eyeballs now, and in the chest. And a stopping, a sense of a momentum ceasing internally in the center of the head.

On the FAQ page, these two caused an immediate body reaction of tightening in my jaw and in my chest:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.

This one I felt a flatness inside:

This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

Jaw tightening and tightening across my face:

This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.

I keep rereading your initial question. Wow. My head feels heavy and thick. I feel a little bit of breathing becoming more shallow.

Warmly,

Jen
Jen

Hi Jen

Yes, you seem to have that quote function sussed!

Great to hear back from you. Lovely honesty there.

Yes, it's perfectly normal in this process to have some disorienting feelings at times, 'wow' feelings at others. These often accompany a kind of a passing into the unknown, a sort of a letting go, not easy to describe. When physical sensations present like those you mention, no need to fight them but rather notice them as alive energy, allowing this energy to stay as long it stays, to move on when it moves on.

So, regarding that 'knowing', when you sit and consider, can you find anything there, any entity, which knows? ..or just a sort of a knowing?

Let's look now into this apparent individual called Jen: How is it known that she exists as a separate individual? Take a look and let me know what comes up (again not from intellect or reasoning, but what actually comes up in direct experience NOW)?

I would like you now to do a pretty simple exercise, which is to sit still for about 5-10 minutes, and notice everything that is noticed, making a list as you go. I mentioned in my previous post the difference between 'direct experience', which we will label (e), and 'indirect experience' = thoughts, beliefs, deductions, teachings, descriptions, assumptions etc, which we will label (t). So after the 5 minutes are up, go through your list marking each item as (e) or (t). Then report back with your list.
And lastly for this exercise, please consider carefully: where in any of those items on the list is there a 'real, live, separate individual called Jen'? Can she be found?

Again notice any physical sensations which come up, notice the comings and the goings of the alive energy (if they do).

Warmth

Mark

Aloha Mark!

Still here, still processing, will reply in the morning :).

Warmth to you too,
Jen

Ok, Jen, thanks for letting me know.

M

Good morning Mark,

So glad to be here in this consideration with you :).

So, regarding that 'knowing', when you sit and consider, can you find anything there, any entity, which knows? ..or just a sort of a knowing?

No, no entity found. It is a knowing sense that is everywhere and nowhere at once. It feels expanded, and if more particular information is desired or needed, the knowing feels partially more localized, but still expanded. Like right now. Knowingness of the computer pressing against the leg, fingers against keyboard, sound of refrigerator humming in the background...but wait, i have one more question to answer before that exercise. :)

Let's look now into this apparent individual called Jen: How is it known that she exists as a separate individual? Take a look and let me know what comes up (again not from intellect or reasoning, but what actually comes up in direct experience NOW)?

well...the longer I sat here, the closest I came was that there is a body here that is different than other bodies whose unfolding and moving and eating and drinking is prominent in my knowingness. This body is the body that arises in my knowingness, and there is the habit of automatically identifying with this body and the name of the body, Jen. But the body doesn't feel separate in my knowingness, just prominent, and loud in terms of sensation.

My 8 minutes of noticing:

e--Fridge humming
e--Feet cold…feeling of a burning coming deeper into the skin
t--Thinking about how to explain the cold in sensation not labeling
e--Fridge humming
e--Back pressing against the chest I am leaning against
e--Hum of computer against leg
e--Feeling of contracting
t--wanting to pull back from the hum against the leg
t--not liking computer against my leg
e--Chest expanding
e--Sense of expanding and light rising through my chest,
t—labeling that feeling joy
e--Neck tight on left hand side
e--Tongue in mouth against roof of mouth, feeling of warmth and saliva
e--Cramping above left eye in temple
e--Ribs tight on right upper side
e--Legs against ground, specifically heels, back of thighs, sits bones
e--Seeing more strongly out of left eye
e--Sense of spaciousness in head
t--Thinking about how to communicate without I in language
t--Sensing sunshine out of corner of my eye
t--Wanting to do this exercise right
t--Right sit bone against floor
t--Recognizing there is a scanning for sensations to report
e--Sense of lightness bubbling up in back of throat and chest, a smile rising up
e--Knowingness recognizing steady feel of knowingness
t-- feeling more certain knowingness is not the sensations
t--Thinking of a friend and their project I’m working on, what I would tell them later today
t--Fantasizing about what enlightenment feels like, kind of like a superhero fantasy
e--Seeing the black spiderweb lace my roommate put up
e--Fridge humming
e--Belly feels tight
t—labeling hunger, sensation associated with eating food
e--Fridge making louder rhythmic noise

And lastly for this exercise, please consider carefully: where in any of those items on the list is there a 'real, live, separate individual called Jen'? Can she be found?

laughter, then feeling slightly woozy. Nowhere is there a "Jen" in those sensations/hearings/seeings/thinkings. As I look at each one, they are simple, separate, discrete arisings. No one is trying to hear, and yet there is hearing, in the knowingness.

After the laughter, I felt a sense of heaviness inside, of a thought coming to try and prove logically that those separate discrete arisings were proof of a "jen"--as in, "where there's smoke, there is fire" style of proof. "I" have to be here because all this information is arising....right? But not an "I" as an object. The "I" label that got put on the never ending, never not here, knowingness. And that knowingness the label refers to is not a jen either.

Oh my. I feel disoriented now....as in, dizzy, and on the edge of something very very different than what normally arises in the knowing.

Thanks Mark for your great questions and assignments,
Jen

Hi Jen,

That's great. Again lovely honesty, flow and ease with the sensations/emotions that arise. Welcome to the unknown, a great place to be: little bit scary, little bit exciting!

I invite you to do regular 5 minuteses of e-ing and t-ing. Notice with the e's whether even the words are actually labels and therefore conceptual, not the happenings themselves. Look for the 'aliveness', or whatever word we may grope at, which is behind those descriptors. Maybe even the descriptors could themselves try to get behind the apparent nouns to the experience itself eg 'belly feels tight' might be reduced to 'tightish bellyish sensation'. Please report from your next session, but no need to report back to me every time, unless I ask you.

well...the longer I sat here, the closest I came was that there is a body here that is different than other bodies whose unfolding and moving and eating and drinking is prominent in my knowingness. This body is the body that arises in my knowingness, and there is the habit of automatically identifying with this body and the name of the body, Jen. But the body doesn't feel separate in my knowingness, just prominent, and loud in terms of sensation.

Great! This 'body that is here that is different from other bodies': does that feel like 'Jen'? Or just a body? When the chance next arises, sit alone and still, close the eyes, take a hand and pinch the right knee. There is a 'fingery' sensation. There is a 'kneey' sensation. A 'pinchy' sensation, I am guessing. A 'bodyish' sensation maybe? But can Jen actually be found in those sensations? (She can be thought, but can she actually be felt?) Can it even be known that there is a real body there, but anything more than body-ish sensations? A 'bodying' experience? Let me know what comes up with that.

The word 'knowingness' is used there, and elsewhere, quite a bit in your response. Does that word have a connotation for you? Any (apparent) history? Look now: what is there behind the word 'knowingness'? Is anything actually known? Is it a sort of 'aliveness' or an 'energy' or an 'experiencing' or something else? We are looking again now to notice second-hand ideas and assumptions (t), and to notice the difference between these and direct experience (e).

laughter, then feeling slightly woozy. Nowhere is there a "Jen" in those sensations/hearings/seeings/thinkings. As I look at each one, they are simple, separate, discrete arisings. No one is trying to hear, and yet there is hearing, in the knowingness.

After the laughter, I felt a sense of heaviness inside, of a thought coming to try and prove logically that those separate discrete arisings were proof of a "jen"--as in, "where there's smoke, there is fire" style of proof. "I" have to be here because all this information is arising....right? But not an "I" as an object. The "I" label that got put on the never ending, never not here, knowingness. And that knowingness the label refers to is not a jen either.

Love this! We can now keep looking - looking into those thoughts which were always assumed to constitute a 'Jen' or a 'Mark', look behind to find whether there is any real entity there, or just some some kind of experiencing, Life happening as it happens. If, at any point you find something that FEELS like a real Jen, please report it, and we'll look into it.

A privilege

Mark

Hi mark,

The server was down when I went to post last night, and it will be a little while yet before I can post a longer post back today. But wanted to let you know the scoop and that I am here :).


Aloha,
Jen

Hi Jen

Thanks for the update. Look forward to hearing from you, when you can.

Cheers

Mark

Aloha Mark,

All day today I kept noticing that I had forgotten to notice my direct experience and had gone back to listening to the commentary/opinions/judgments/fears/hopes and general chatter in my head. When I noticed the forgetting, I would go back to e'ing and t'ing and was struck by the resistance to remembering and how calm and peaceful it felt to feel the e'ing and truly how nothing much was happening.

Great! This 'body that is here that is different from other bodies': does that feel like 'Jen'? Or just a body? When the chance next arises, sit alone and still, close the eyes, take a hand and pinch the right knee. There is a 'fingery' sensation. There is a 'kneey' sensation. A 'pinchy' sensation, I am guessing. A 'bodyish' sensation maybe? But can Jen actually be found in those sensations? (She can be thought, but can she actually be felt?) Can it even be known that there is a real body there, but anything more than body-ish sensations? A 'bodying' experience? Let me know what comes up with that.

Oh, this was a good one. This is the body arising in this awareness's perception--but no "jen" to be found. I immediately resonated with the question about if it can be known there is a real body there, but anything more than body-ish sensations. I felt a ringing light sensation inside, and a feeling of relaxing in the presence of the question. The relaxing continues to deepen the more I stay with the question. What is a "real" body anyways? I'd have to agree that in my experience there is only the "body-ish" sensations. So freeing inside to hear it. I am struggling with language on this one--feeling of "truth"--a stillness, an aliveness, an immediate ending of struggle that is felt when something simply is.

The word 'knowingness' is used there, and elsewhere, quite a bit in your response. Does that word have a connotation for you? Any (apparent) history? Look now: what is there behind the word 'knowingness'? Is anything actually known? Is it a sort of 'aliveness' or an 'energy' or an 'experiencing' or something else? We are looking again now to notice second-hand ideas and assumptions (t), and to notice the difference between these and direct experience (e).

Ah yes. "Knowingness" and the way I use it reflects the Advaita and Tibetan practice I've done. Love the question, and the distinction being presented. What a pretzel twister for my mind not to use concepts to explain! :)

Aliveness, yes. Energy, that too. Experiencing--I resonate with aliveness the most. If I look, I see nothing but aliveness---sensations arising: aliveness; spacious feeling surrounding the sensations: aliveness; energetic shivering through the system of blood moving and electricity surging across my body: aliveness. The sensations are more dense information wise, more of a definite sensation pattern like "pinchy-ness" or "knee-ness" versus the shimmering pulsing aliveness. Life happening is aliveness happening. And here it is...typing :).

Feel belly tightening and jaw tightening, a tugging, a resistance yes. Almost seeing, flickering in and out of a deep deep lightness and then a blank sense, a dullness, then the brightness again.

Oh, this is a ride isn't? Thank you so much for joining me on it.

Warmly,
Jen

Hi Jen

Another lovely response.

Maybe you forgot that I asked you to report back on another 5 minutes of E-ing and T-ing. If you haven't already done it, I invite you to have a go whilst waking up. Notice the very first waking moments, all that arises in immediate sensations and in thoughts, including the thoughts of "all that Jen has to 'do' and to 'be'" today. Then, when you have your list, again add the E's and T's. Is any of it really 'Jen'? Does any of it really belong to 'Jen'?

Warmly

Mark

Aloha Mark,

Yes, you are right, I did miss to do the e & t'ing and report back. I will do so when I wake up in the morning. I can see how that would be an excellent time to do so. Especially:

Notice the very first waking moments, all that arises in immediate sensations and in thoughts, including the thoughts of "all that Jen has to 'do' and to 'be'" today.

LOVE that. I so often track that first moment of transition from sleep to awake, and notice there is a bit of a--well, now what? quality, like "I" am now supposed to take over and drive this experience. There will be a sense of scrolling through prayers, intentions, what would be potent to do first thing. As in, what am "I" supposed to do?

Thanks :)

Jen