The Gate

Hi,

I keep oscillating between seeing through the illusion of self and getting stuck in thought. I could do with some help to clarify where I am up to tbh and I seem to resonate with your style best Vince.

Hope you can help,

Julie

Hi Julie, yes, of course i'll contribute to your 'awakening'.
..but first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, satsang etc. Do tell me if you meditate and we can adjust that and continue it.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, which i want you not only to attempt to answer them, but to communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too http://www.liberationunleashed.com. Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Agreed ?

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor, with the cursor ready for you to type your response.
Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince

Hi Vince,

Thank you for agreeing to help, I really appreciate it. I understand and agree to all of the terms you have stated above, and yes to also posting daily.

My expectations are to recognise the fullness of this moment and not to be lost in thoughts so much as I am now. I wish to become more aware of sensations happening in front of me, leading to a life lived fully. I also know that most of my thoughts are those of trying to guess others motives and I would love to be free of this by knowing I cannot possibly know what is going on in other peoples minds. I oscillate between knowing I can't possibly know what is really going on in this world that appears in front of me and feeling peaceful with that, to getting completely lost in the content of thoughts. I don't expect any kind of special experience to come to me because of this process except maybe to be able to recognise more quickly when I get lost in thought which hopefully will lead to me being able to let them drift by so I can enjoy what is in front of me right now. Basically I think I have grasped that the 'I' is just a story through reading through some posts on here and doing some of the exercises you have given to others in order to see through this....so why do I keep believing the content of those thoughts? This is where the frustration sets in and I believe I'm not there yet!

Hope you now know a bit of where I'm up to in the process...

Julie

P.S. I'm in the UK but I am happy with the time difference if that's ok with you too?

I'm in the UK but I am happy with the time difference if that's ok with you too?

Yes, i generally get up early to do this stuff and so usually post once a day. (today is different because you responded so quickly)
Julie, from your short rant, a story arises here that you already have one foot through the 'gate'. Your expectation is reasonable, based on experiencing here.
From reading other guiding, you may already know that there is a de-conditioning (and reconditioning) that happens in the brain. This usually takes time with a change of behaviour.
To avoid (some) repetition, please tell me if you have seen the videos that i recommended in other threads, and the laughing exercise. (if not, i will introduce them when appropriate)

so why do I keep believing the content of those thoughts?

You don't. You just behave as if you do. That is conditioning. When you recognize that you have reacted to them and examine it, do you still believe them ? (i suspect not.)

This is where the frustration sets in and I believe I'm not there yet!

Ah yes. It's the emotional response (the frustration) that seems to give credibility to the thoughts. "It has to be real because I feel it."
Notice also, that a loop happens. A story, an emotion, more story, more emotion, more story, bigger emotion, etc.
Now ask yourself this; If you scratch a mosquito bite, does it stop itching for more than a moment, or does it compound the problem ?
Is it possible that words here can help you not scratch for long enough for the seeking itch to heal ?

love (not just a platitude)

vince

Julie, from your short rant, a story arises here that you already have one foot through the 'gate'. Your expectation is reasonable, based on experiencing here.

My emotional response is that this is good news :)

From reading other guiding, you may already know that there is a de-conditioning (and reconditioning) that happens in the brain. This usually takes time with a change of behaviour.

I did wonder whether conditioning had a part to play in all of this, it's good to get it confirmed by you.

To avoid (some) repetition, please tell me if you have seen the videos that i recommended in other threads, and the laughing exercise. (if not, i will introduce them when appropriate)

I have seen the video where it mentions a 6 second lag in response to our decision making process, it was truly amazing and I was left feeling like a biological machine after watching that part! I however haven't seen the laughing experiment...

That is conditioning. When you recognize that you have reacted to them and examine it, do you still believe them ? (i suspect not.)

You've hit the nail on the head there Vince, as soon as I recognise them as not being truths I hear the voice in my head dismiss them. It sometimes takes me a while to do so depending on which story I am divulging! A great relief is felt as soon as I recognise this.

Notice also, that a loop happens. A story, an emotion, more story, more emotion, more story, bigger emotion, etc.

Totally, I agree.

Now ask yourself this; If you scratch a mosquito bite, does it stop itching for more than a moment, or does it compound the problem ?

No it doesn't stop itching it gets worse and worse.

Is it possible that words here can help you not scratch for long enough for the seeking itch to heal ?

I really see where you are coming from and yes I feel like it has sunk in with just looking at it this way, I will ponder this as I drift off to sleep tonight :)

Thanks again Vince,

Julie

'morning Julie.
Ok, ever wondered why some Buddhist monks giggle and laugh all of the time ?
Besides the absurdity of many situations they have probably discovered that it makes them feel great. This is because when you laugh with a stomach contraction you release 'feel good' hormones.
Now when we learn something new, there are connections made in the brain. Synaptic connections that make up neuronal pathways. Each time this new behavior is experienced the connections get stronger. If they are not used they will hang around in case they are needed for a long time, but will eventually weaken and redeploy to other uses.
There is also a certain satisfaction to completing the behavior that they were established for. An emotional response.
Have you ever noticed that when you start to say something to someone, only to realize that you have said it before, but you feel compelled to finish saying it anyway ?
Here's what can happen to hasten the brain re-wiring. Whenever you Realize that an emotion has 'carried you away', celebrate the Recognition with a laugh.
The Recognition that you were 'lost' in the content of a thought stream, will come with an "Aha !"
This Recognition may happen some time after the event. "Oh, I was angry/sad/happy/elated/depressed/etc, because I was believing thought ABOUT suchandsuch." ...or it might come during the 'event', ..or even before it. "WoW !, I was about to get sucked into that story. Hahahaa."
Whenever it happens, laugh. Laugh out loud. A great big guffaw if you are alone (or aren't embarrassed by the presence others) If that isn't appropriate a chuckle or even a silent smile with eyes only, is fine. Whatever you do, just make sure that your stomach contracts. This has the effect of releasing Oxytocin (a happiness, hormone) which has the effect of neutralizing any stress hormones that would have been released by negative emotions. If you Recognize that you were feeling elated because of story, then still laugh, realizing that story was involved.
This video is worth a watch; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

love

vince

Hi Vince,

what you wrote makes perfect sense and it seems so easy, I will practice that from now onwards whenever I realise I have believed am believing a story.

I'm going to check out the video now and I'll report back shortly...

Julie :)

Wow wow wow wow wow, I love that! I was watching it thinking this is going to take me some time to recondition my brain but then I realised that that was just a story and laughed.

The most interesting thing comes back to us just being a biological machine and with a bit of tinkering we can come back to our natural state of love and compassion.

Thanks Vince, that really registered...I feel like I've created some new neural pathways whilst watching it :)

Enjoy your day,

Julie

Hi Vince, Just checking in for the day. One thing that has struck me since agreeing to not read any other spiritual material is just how much I was doing this throughout the day. I think I was addicted to reading about 'no self'. It's been good to sit without that distraction. I have felt more connected to the world appearing around me.

Have a good day,

Julie

Hi Julie.

I think I was addicted to reading about 'no self'.

How much of the day are you now thinking about 'no self', and how much is just 'getting on with it' happening ?
We know that this process ('deepening') never ends, but what 'form' does it take.

It's been good to sit without that distraction. I have felt more connected to the world appearing around me.

Is it sitting with appreciation of sense input or are you lost in (better) thought streams ?

love

vince

Hi Vince,

How much of the day are you now thinking about 'no self', and how much is just 'getting on with it' happening ?

I would say that I have been thinking about 'no self' the majority of the time. Maybe 60% of my time is taken up with 'no self' and the rest is just getting on with it. Even when I am walking the dog I am recognising that I am pondering this process for about 80% of the duration. Only 20% of the time whilst out walking am I experiencing what is around me, it's really interesting to see just how much I am missing out on the world around me hmmm...

We know that this process ('deepening') never ends, but what 'form' does it take.

I think thoughts of 'no self' are actually me still seeking and are just as empty as any other content. I can get just as hooked on them as the ones containing bad content. I suppose the key is to watch them and see how the deepening is happening?

Is it sitting with appreciation of sense input or are you lost in (better) thought streams ?

As soon as I get the urge to read my kindle I get present to what is happening around me, I also laugh because I have recognised the recognising.

Julie

Hi Vince, Just checking in again.

Today I have noticed I have been looking at things differently than ever before. For example I stared out of my window at sunset and noticed the colours and shape of the clouds and a flock of birds were swooping in front of the cloud, but for the first time I decided to drop the labels and just look with a sense of wonder, it was amazing! This also happened when I was walking my dog, the autumn leaves seemed brighter without the labels...Just thought I'd share that with you.

Have a great day,

Julie

Good evening Julie, wonderful sharing. Thank you.
It becomes clear how we used to relate to the image in our head, rather than the actual.
Can you see how, without labels that the perception is actually experiencing, and that what appears to be 'out there' is completely, totally, the experiencing of the organism ?

I think thoughts of 'no self' are actually me still seeking

Sure. What comes to mind when i ask "seeking for what ?"
What is missing ?
What are your expectations ?

love

vince

Hi Vince,

Can you see how, without labels that the perception is actually experiencing, and that what appears to be 'out there' is completely, totally, the experiencing of the organism ?

Yes that was clear both yesterday and still today, actually today it was experienced more. On waking I had a knowing that everything is labels, beliefs or concepts...I have read this many times and thought I'd grasped it but it felt more complete this time. As if I really did understand it more thoroughly than ever. There is nothing but this experiencing as you call it. Nothing on the 'outside' could possibly be outside of my perception (I hope you understand what I am saying as sometimes I'm not very clear). I sketch and even that has compounded the fact that all the eye sees is shapes and colours as this is all that is used to create a picture and this is all unique to my perception and how I see those objects.

What comes to mind when i ask "seeking for what ?"

Well a few days ago I would have said I was maybe seeking to see through the 'no self' issue. It makes me laugh just saying that because it is the "I" seeking the "no self" and I really don't see how that could ever really work as it feels like a dog chasing it's tail.

Now right at this very moment there is no seeking anything at all.

Nothing is missing and everything feels complete.

I have no expectations because that would be even more story and that is seen now.

Hi Vince, just checking in...

Seeing that everything is a story is really settling in now. I have been finding that I am quickly noticing when I get caught in thoughts and the emptiness of them.

Have a great day,

Julie