The Gate

Hi there

My name's Paul.

I've been hovering around the site for about 10 days and I've read most of the book and explored recommended resources etc. Prior to this I've read Jed McKenna, UG Krishnamurti and other non-dual stuff as well as Law of Attraction type material. I've long been interested in philosophy, spirituality and psychology, and over the last few years I have been trying to apply these informations to get to the bottom of why my life isn't going as I would like, and to make it better.

This seems to have brought me to this point where taking a step through the gateless gate seems like an attractive proposition. On Sunday past I seemed to see something of no-self in the way that is being described at LU. However, since then I am still heavily identifying with the 'I thought' and, while I appreciate the shift can be subtle and there is an unfolding, I'm not sure that I have had the clear seeing that might be open to me.

I look forward to receiving the help a guide.

Thank you.

Paul

Hi Paul,

My name is Diarmuid, or just 'd'. I would be happy to help guide you.

There are a few standard ground rules before we start:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.

d

Hi d

Thank you. Yes, I'm happy with all that.

Paul

Great,

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find. Please answer each of the questions separately even if the topic runs over from one to the other.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Enjoy,

d

Hi d

Thank you.

What are your expectations for this process?

If the process is a success I expect it will lead to a clear and lasting seeing that there is no self. There are some doubts as to whether this will occur but I have some intellectual understanding that no-self is the case, and have perhaps had at least a glimpse of the reality of this already.

What is it that you are searching for?

I’m not exactly sure. I suppose it has varied over time. As I indicated in my introductory post, for the last few years I have been trying to get to the bottom of why my life is turning out to be less than I want or expect in terms of outer circumstances and how I feel about it. Long before that I was interested in notions of enlightenment and being free from suffering. I’d like to understand what’s going on and I’d like to be happy. I’d like to find enjoyment in the activities of life and generally have desires fulfilled. Right now I am apparently searching for a clear seeing that there is no self.

How will you know that you found it?

I will feel better and no longer be searching in the same way as I have been. I will know much more clearly what is going on and what to do with myself. There will be a knowing that is irrefutable and an absence of confusion.

How will this feel?

It will feel good. There will be a sense of relief. There will be a relaxation and confidence in day-to-day situations, less fear, perhaps peace and contentment. Not thoroughly or even permanently but at least fundamentally and for the most part.

How will this change you?

Basically feeling better and knowing something true of why, will be the change, as opposed to the previous situation of anxiety, frustration, uncertainty, confusion etc. I’m not sure what I will go on to do but I expect things to fall more into place in terms of outer and inner.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul,

What are your expectations for this process?

If the process is a success I expect it will lead to a clear and lasting seeing that there is no self. There are some doubts as to whether this will occur but I have some intellectual understanding that no-self is the case, and have perhaps had at least a glimpse of the reality of this already.

Describe what your understanding of no-self is, please.

When you say 'I' or 'me', what are you referring to?

Thanks,

d

Ps.To make your replies as clear as possible and to help me guide you, please use the quote function. To do that, simply highlight the relevant sentence(s)/paragraph(s) that you're replying to in my previous post and press 'copy', then press the 'Quote ' button in the bar above the section you're typing in, then place the cursor in the centre of the two bracketed quote words and then press "paste". That should do it.

Describe what your understanding of no-self is, please.

My understanding of no-self is that, contrary to the basic assumption and apparent experience that there is an I who is associated with this body-mind and who is to some extent directing this life, there is in fact no such phenomenon, rather, there is only a series of thoughts referencing an imaginary I and the sensation that these along with associated feelings and sense perceptions are being done by or happening to that I.

When you say 'I' or 'me', what are you referring to?

When I say 'I' or 'me', I am referring to the sense of individual and separate existence associated with this particular body-mind. Thus, there are other people and there are objects that are physically and psychically separate from 'me'. 'I' refer to the life that is being lived in time in terms of the collection of physical, mental, emotional etc. attributes or happenings that appear to persist, evolve and repeat.

My experience currently/lately is that there is such an I or me, although I can also seem to step back from that and see intellectually, and, to a slight extent, viscerally, that such is not the case, but it still feels like it is me stepping back and so there I am again, even though there can also be a slight sense in which this is just happening without a me.

Hope that makes sense and reflects what I intend to communicate.

Hi Paul,

You have communicated very well. Thank you.

Thanks also for sharing your expectations, and your understanding of what seeing that you have no separate self might be like. It's natural, of course, to wonder and speculate about what this liberation/awakening will be like but, by its very nature, I can assure you that it's just not like anyone expects, although it does differ for each one of us. I'd just stress that the work we do is definitely not intellectual or thought-based. That being so, it's best to put aside any expectations, as they reside in thoughts about the future and so are not within direct experience.

Rest assured, that when you see that there isn't and never has been a 'you', a self-entity, with my guiding to help you see that fact for yourself, you'll just know. In exactly the same way that you know that unicorns aren't real, Batman doesn't exist, and there's no Santa Claus. It isn't fundamentally at all difficult, amazingly simple in fact, but only if you don't rely on trying to figure it out by thinking it through but, instead, just LOOK, LOOK, LOOK in direct experience.

Seeing for sure that there is no separate self, and never has been, is different for everyone. It can come with a definite pop of realisation, or it might creep up gradually until it is seen. Also the effects on life lived after liberation can vary widely.

It’s worth mentioning at this early stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would 'be like' or what life ought to 'look like' once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity. There is a view that 'getting it' is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise.

It's really helpful to be clear that it's not any kind of state - it's simply direct knowing, insight. The Santa example puts it very well - 'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'. However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?

And next:

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all.

What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

:-)
d

Hi d

Thanks for that.

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does? ... What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

I can’t seem to get out of the present moment in order to find anything that might exist there. Does even another moment exist outside the present moment, I wonder? Whether there is anything but the present moment, it is my experience that I have only ever been in the present moment.

There are thoughts and imaginings about things that are outside of the present moment, but these always seem to happen in the present moment. The content of these mental phenomena is outside of the present moment only insofar as they are about something other than what is happening in the present moment, but their basic nature as mental phenomena belongs in the present moment.

While there is nothing that is experienced outside of the present moment, an aspect of the experience of the present moment seems to involve a transition or flow to what might be called the next moment. I would say that this next moment only appears right at the edge of the present moment or continues from the present moment and it is not something I can ever get to without it appearing as or within the present moment.

In terms of the thoughts and feelings that arise in response to such ponderings, I will say the following. I’m reminded of a quote in one of Jed McKenna’s books, I think of Walt Whitman, that says: ‘Only that day dawns to which I am awake’. I have reflected on that quote before and the sensation that arose and that arises now is that I (or my consciousness) am the ground of existence or experience rather than an entity that persists through an already separately existing existence. Nothing can actually happen outside of my awareness of it happening in both space and time. There can be something of a sense of mild awe associated with this. The assumption that there is separately existing existence is an assumption that arises in the present moment. Nevertheless, I function unproblematicaly as if there is a pre-existing physical world which has been there and will continue to be there as the flow of the moment moves along.

So, in a sense I experience a contradiction between what pondering or perhaps looking tells me about existence and the moment, and what my operating assumptions about those are. From there, I feel somewhat stuck, as in, I can see what is the case but I can’t change my assumptions in order to live from that. I feel puzzled, confused, not sure what to do with contradictory viewpoints. Maybe I am scared to let go of day-dreaming about other places, times and events. And then, how can I let go of that, I wonder? Day-dreaming seems to go on and on regardless.

I feel threatened to think that I am trapped in the present moment and that my day-dreaming has had its reality undermined. I liked some of the content of day-dreams, as in, I would like it to become a reality. On the other hand, I feel a possibility for freedom from the suffering caused by entertaining day-dreams that seem to more directly be negative and give rise to suffering. It was all a story: I feel as though I have invested so much energy and behaviour into the truth or reality of the content of day-dreams and I will feel there is a waste, a loss, a sense of deflation, humiliation even, if their reality is undermined.

There is some tightness arising in solar plexus area but not sure if this is directly in response to these particular ponderings or to the project of writing to you about this subject more broadly.

And next:

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all.

What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

There is a reluctance to ponder this because I have already been pondering the first question and I am impatient to move on. I also feel as though I have pondered this quite a lot recently and I would just be rehashing old thinking or insights rather than doing or getting anything new out of it. I am thinking that my writing here is perhaps more analytical and stream-of-consciousy than is being asked for, although I was asked to ponder, so I feel justified.

Anyway, I’m going to give some fresh pondering to or looking in experience at this second part of your question, and will follow up later in a subsequent post.

Paul

What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

Hi Paul,

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does? ... What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

I can’t seem to get out of the present moment in order to find anything that might exist there.

What is this ‘I’ that can’t get out of the present moment?

Does even another moment exist outside the present moment, I wonder?

Does anything at all exist outside the present moment?

Whether there is anything but the present moment, it is my experience that I have only ever been in the present moment.

Let’s not leave a ‘whether’, Look and tell me is there anything but the present moment?
What is this ‘I’ that has only ever been in the present moment?

There are thoughts and imaginings about things that are outside of the present moment, but these always seem to happen in the present moment.

This is good. You are looking well here.

The content of these mental phenomena is outside of the present moment only insofar as they are about something other than what is happening in the present moment, but their basic nature as mental phenomena belongs in the present moment.

How is the ‘content of these mental phenomena’ outside the present moment?
What is this ‘something other than what is happening in the present moment’? Where is it happening?

While there is nothing that is experienced outside of the present moment, an aspect of the experience of the present moment seems to involve a transition or flow to what might be called the next moment. I would say that this next moment only appears right at the edge of the present moment or continues from the present moment and it is not something I can ever get to without it appearing as or within the present moment.

Is there individual present moments appearing to join together, or is there just the present moment?
What is this ‘I” that can never get to it? If the ‘I’ can’t get to it, then where is this ‘I”?

In terms of the thoughts and feelings that arise in response to such ponderings, I will say the following. I’m reminded of a quote in one of Jed McKenna’s books, I think of Walt Whitman, that says: ‘Only that day dawns to which I am awake’. I have reflected on that quote before and the sensation that arose and that arises now is that I (or my consciousness) am the ground of existence or experience rather than an entity that persists through an already separately existing existence.

What is that ‘I’, ‘my consciousness’, ‘ground of existence’ and ‘experience’?
Where is the separation between them?

Nothing can actually happen outside of my awareness of it happening in both space and time.

What is ‘your awareness’?

There can be something of a sense of mild awe associated with this. The assumption that there is separately existing existence is an assumption that arises in the present moment.

This is good. How does this assumption arise?

Nevertheless, I function unproblematicaly as if there is a pre-existing physical world which has been there and will continue to be there as the flow of the moment moves along.

What is this ‘I’ that functions unproblematically? Why are you here if it is unproblematically?

So, in a sense I experience a contradiction between what pondering or perhaps looking tells me about existence and the moment, and what my operating assumptions about those are.

Yep, I get that. Keep questioning these assumptions by LOOKing at the present moment.

From there, I feel somewhat stuck, as in, I can see what is the case but I can’t change my assumptions in order to live from that. I feel puzzled, confused, not sure what to do with contradictory viewpoints.

What is this ‘I’ that feels stuck?
How does stuck feel, can you describe it to me?
Describe the feeling of puzzled, and confused.

Maybe I am scared to let go of day-dreaming about other places, times and events. And then, how can I let go of that, I wonder? Day-dreaming seems to go on and on regardless.

What is this ‘I’ that can let go of day-dreaming?
Where does day-dreaming go to?
Where does day-dreaming exist?

I feel threatened to think that I am trapped in the present moment and that my day-dreaming has had its reality undermined.

Describe this ‘I’ that feels threatened. Describe the feeling of ‘threatened’.
How is the ‘I’ ‘trapped in the present moment’?
What is the reality of day-dreaming?

I liked some of the content of day-dreams, as in, I would like it to become a reality. On the other hand, I feel a possibility for freedom from the suffering caused by entertaining day-dreams that seem to more directly be negative and give rise to suffering. It was all a story: I feel as though I have invested so much energy and behaviour into the truth or reality of the content of day-dreams and I will feel there is a waste, a loss, a sense of deflation, humiliation even, if their reality is undermined.

Is “I will feel there is a waste, a loss, a sense of deflation, humiliation even, if their reality is undermined.” also a daydream?
What is a daydream?

There is some tightness arising in solar plexus area but not sure if this is directly in response to these particular ponderings or to the project of writing to you about this subject more broadly.

Good, you are LOOKing at the sensations before labeling it.

And next:

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all.

What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

There is a reluctance to ponder this because I have already been pondering the first question and I am impatient to move on.

How does reluctance feel? Describe it.
What is the ‘I’ that feels impatient?
How does it feel ‘impatient’? Describe ‘impatient’ please.

I also feel as though I have pondered this quite a lot recently and I would just be rehashing old thinking or insights rather than doing or getting anything new out of it. I am thinking that my writing here is perhaps more analytical and stream-of-consciousy than is being asked for, although I was asked to ponder, so I feel justified.

What is this ‘I’ that feels justified? Describe how ‘feels justified’ feels.

Anyway, I’m going to give some fresh pondering to or looking in experience at this second part of your question, and will follow up later in a subsequent post.

Great, can’t wait. Thank you for your effort.

d

Thank you for your questioning.

What is this ‘I’ that can’t get out of the present moment?

I mean the thing that is being in the present moment, the body-mind that is having the experince of the present moment.

Does anything at all exist outside the present moment?

I (this body-mind's experience) can't get out of the present moment to tell you.

Let’s not leave a ‘whether’, Look and tell me is there anything but the present moment?
What is this ‘I’ that has only ever been in the present moment?

'I' hasn't experienced anything but the present moment other than imaginings about things outside of the present moment, which have always arisen in the moment in which they were happening which was the present moment at the time of its happening. There have been 'other moments', one could say, although the experience is of a continuous moment that changes seemlessly.

'I' is this sense of body-mind experience that appears to continue through a streaming present moment.

How is the ‘content of these mental phenomena’ outside the present moment?
What is this ‘something other than what is happening in the present moment’? Where is it happening?

By content that is outside, I mean that the subject of imaginings (the scenes and events being imagined) are imagined to be happening in the past or an alternative past scenario, or in possible futures, different places etc.

The something other than the present moment is not really other than the present moment, rather, it is imagined to be other than the present moment.

Is there individual present moments appearing to join together, or is there just the present moment?
What is this ‘I” that can never get to it? If the ‘I’ can’t get to it, then where is this ‘I”?

The present moment appears as continuous. In an imagining of something happening other than what is actually happening in the present moment, there is an imagined other moment, but if and when actual experience arrives at the actual version of the imagined moment, whatever happens happens in that time's present moment.

This 'I' is the present body-mind experience. It can't get to anything other than the present moment so it must exist in or exist as the present moment.

What is that ‘I’, ‘my consciousness’, ‘ground of existence’ and ‘experience’?
Where is the separation between them?

I'm saying that 'I' is present moment body-mind experience. By 'my consciousness' I mean basically the same thing. It is the 'ground of existence' for the present moment because without it there would not be any present moment experienced. 'Experience' refers to something slightly narrower which is whatever is perceived to be happening to or within present moment body-mind experience/my consciousness.

Is there a separation between them? Not really, they are different ways of labelling what is perceived to be going on in a present moment. Thus, there is separation between them as slightly differing concepts each thought of at a different point in the flowing moment.

What is ‘your awareness’?

My awareness is the time-space which exists at a given moment.

There can be something of a sense of mild awe associated with this. The assumption that there is separately existing existence is an assumption that arises in the present moment.


This is good. How does this assumption arise?

In a sense, this assumption appears to arise automatically from deep conditioning and immersion over time in the belief that there is a me that exists and a separate world that also exists. As an assumption it doesn't seem to arise in the present moment so much as be automatically present. It only really 'arises' as a conceptual object of reflection.

What is this ‘I’ that functions unproblematically? Why are you here if it is unproblematically?

I mean that I don't have to think about it, it is automatic. There are 'problems' for me in terms of suffering but whether I am expriencing any particular form of suffering problem or not at a particular point, this body-mind can continue to operate with basic functional taks such as typing, making a cup of tea, shopping, woring etc.

I'm going to take a break now before returnoing shortly to finish answering your questions.

Paul

I continue ...

From there, I feel somewhat stuck, as in, I can see what is the case but I can’t change my assumptions in order to live from that. I feel puzzled, confused, not sure what to do with contradictory viewpoints.


What is this ‘I’ that feels stuck?
How does stuck feel, can you describe it to me?
Describe the feeling of puzzled, and confused.

This 'I' that feels stuck is the point or moments in or as which this body-mind experience reflects upon two contradictory but apparently true concepts of what is going on in terms of explaining the experience of existence happening.

By 'stuck' I mean that I don't feel/think I have the power to resolve the apparent contradiction between the assumptions underlying unreflective functioning and the insight that reality is of a different order. How does that feel? I'm not sure as I am finding it hard to identify and describe feelings. I suppose in all of this (questioning the existence of a separate self) I feel powerless to or unable to effect a change from the situation where 'I thoughts' are continually arising and being identified with, but which, upon reflection, are seen as false in that the I which they refer to does not seem to exist and the version of the truth that each one claims is seen as false by the fact that a thought contradicting it arises at another point. And this goes on and on. In terms of bodily sensation I would say there is maybe a weakness or wishy-washiness throughout the body.

Maybe I am scared to let go of day-dreaming about other places, times and events. And then, how can I let go of that, I wonder? Day-dreaming seems to go on and on regardless.


What is this ‘I’ that can let go of day-dreaming?
Where does day-dreaming go to?
Where does day-dreaming exist?

This 'I' that can't let go of day-dreaming is the one referred to by the thought 'I can't seem to let go of day-dreaming'. On reflection there is no such I outside of that thought, but at the time of the thought, it feels enrgetically as though there is.

Day-dreaming doesn't or wouldn't 'go anywhere'. It could perhaps stop and particular day-dreams do seem to arise and then stop and then often arise again.

Day-dreaming exists in the mind in the moment it is happening.

I feel threatened to think that I am trapped in the present moment and that my day-dreaming has had its reality undermined.


Describe this ‘I’ that feels threatened. Describe the feeling of ‘threatened’.
How is the ‘I’ ‘trapped in the present moment’?
What is the reality of day-dreaming?

This 'I' that feels threatened is energetic sense of identity arising at the point at which the thought referencing that I arises.

The threatening is to do with giving up on the possiblity that certain desirable day-dreams, if they were to become reality, may never actually come to pass. It is a feeling of deflation, a cutting-off of excitement or optimism. I don't want to give up on the possibility of desirable things happening. At the same time, or as well as this, I feel tormented by all thoughts about that which is other than what is actually happening in the moment, and I would be glad to be rid of them, or at least the energetic identification with them as belonging to me.

The reality of day-dreaming is imaginings in the present moment: sequencies of images depicting events, stories about what has happened and what might happen. I don't know if they are made of any 'substance' like mind-stuff but they do arise and therefore have reality insofar as they arise as what they appear to be. Ultimately, I don't know what their reality is.

Is “I will feel there is a waste, a loss, a sense of deflation, humiliation even, if their reality is undermined.” also a daydream?
What is a daydream?

I suppose that is also a day-dream because it is an imagining about a future scenario that is happening in the present moment but not physically/actually happning in the present moment.

A daydream is an imagining of something other than what is physically going on in the present moment. It consists of thoughts and associated images, scenes, stories about what may or may not come to pass. I don't know what the substance of such phenomena are beyond their appearing this way.

How does reluctance feel? Describe it.
What is the ‘I’ that feels impatient?
How does it feel ‘impatient’? Describe ‘impatient’ please.

The reluctance feels like a turning away from the question. The question appears as tedious and repetitive. It doesn't feel like there is anything to be obtained by examining the question. The question is annoying because it is asking for a description or finding of something, ie. self, in that, in the context of the discussion is assumed not to actually exist. The reluctance was also partly due to a certain amount of time having passed and the desire for a break, some food, or whatever.

The I that feels impatient is the sense of identity that wants to get to the bottom of the matter of a non-existent self as well as to the bottom of other life problems that are apparently increasingly understood to have their source in the belief that there is in fact a self to which they pertain. It is the I that wants to feel good, to get what it wants, to be free.

Impatient is a restlessness in the body, an urge to do something else, a balking at continuation of effort, perception of an unwanted and unproductive task, a desire to be something else or be somewher else, a sens e of a movement toward something wanted being thwarted.

I also feel as though I have pondered this quite a lot recently and I would just be rehashing old thinking or insights rather than doing or getting anything new out of it. I am thinking that my writing here is perhaps more analytical and stream-of-consciousy than is being asked for, although I was asked to ponder, so I feel justified.


What is this ‘I’ that feels justified? Describe how ‘feels justified’ feels.

The justified I is the sense of identity at the point at which there is consideration of the matter of the style of my writing and investigation in relation to what is being asked for or required for success in this process.

Justified feels like a psychic resolution of the qustion of whether that style is appropriate. I had questioned myself but I feel at least technically correct. I feel like maybe I was/am not doing it right but at least I can say I am doing what's asked. I feel a firming-up of myself in response to a challenge or questioning of validity.

Anyway, I’m going to give some fresh pondering to or looking in experience at this second part of your question, and will follow up later in a subsequent post.


Great, can’t wait. Thank you for your effort.

Well, I've put my energy for now into replying to your latest post instead of the unanswerd part of your previous one, so I will say that I will return to that in a subsequent post. If you reply before that I will address the unanswered portion of previous post first in order to get it out of the way.

Maybe I'm avoiding the qustion! :)

Paul

And now to address this:

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

...

And next:

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all.

What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

Why am I here looking for no-self if there is no self to find? I cannot find the absence of something. How will I know I've looked thoroughly enough to establish for sure that there is no self?

What do we mean by 'self'? Is there one who thinks? Through the senses, a body is believed to exist. An individual body object, separate from other physical objects. Whose body? Does the body have to belong to anyone to exist? Does a body belong to a mind? A body doesn't belong to a brain. A brain is part of a body. Mind is more like the phenomenon of awareness, of perception, of experience. An experience within which physical objects appear to exist. Can physical objects appear within an experience without a self? What is the self? Lets use your definitions (manager, controller, doer, thinker, watcher). Is there a manager? There is thinking about what to do with the body, how to manage the body eg. what words to type, what to type next and so on. Is there thinking about what words to type or is 'what words to type' the thought itself? What is the difference between thinker and thought? If there is thought, does there have to be a thinker? What is a thought? A thought can be experienced as a stream of words silently recited in the mind. Are they experienced when they happen or only by the next thought? Who does all of this? Is there a doer. If there is a doer or controller or manager then that one must be able to do, control, manage. Can the sense of me do any of that. Not very well. Why not? If there is a self would it not direct the body-mind in the ways that it would like? Whay doesn't the so-called self get the things done that produce what it wants? Does it know what it wants? There is a self but it has no control. A self, if it exists, should be able to be selfy. What kinds of things are selfy things? Decisions to do stuff, impetus for action, managed action, directed behaviour, a sense of agency, of independence. Decisions to do things do appear to happen so there is selfy stuff going on, non-random thinking appears to occur, control is exerted over physical stuff by a body-mind on a series of actions to achieve some specific goal. There is selfy stuff going on. There is reflection on actions so there is experience of continuity around an individual body going on. That's pretty selfy.

What would this self consist of, [in order to this selfy stuff]? Could it consist of the same mind-stuff as which thoughts and mental images and sounds appear? Its nature would have to be different from that sort of mind-stuff if it would be able to have any selfy sort of control over that mind-stuff eg. be the entity or phenomenon that summons certain thoughts to occur.

Does that self not do a very good job because it does not have a properly independent control over 'its' body-mind? Why is that self defective in that regard? Has it taken on conflicting and false beliefs about the nature of reality which thwart it's project of the optimal direction of a human body-mind lifetime? But is not in the nature of a properly selfy thing to be able to direct or control which beliefs/thoughts it has? If beliefs control the self or, if there is no self, control the selfy things that seem to go on, then are the beliefs not more selfy? Is it not the thoughts, beliefs, way of looking at the world, that influence selfy sorts of behaviours?

But who sees he is not running the show? No-one sees that.

1. 'I just don't get it' is a thought that comes up.
2. 'I just don't get it is a thought that comes up' is a thought that comes up.

In 1, there is an I phenomenon happening, then there is the reflective point at which 'I just don't get it' is seen as a thought and that seeing is itself another thought. Is there an I phenomenon in 2? In experience, not so much. Is there a perpetual oberver, point of observation, observation going on? Is every thought an observation or only the thoughts which look back on previous thoughts. This is the sense of self: the looking back on experience.

Self is an activity of looking back on experience. Does the activity of looking back on experience exist? Yes.

So there is the activity of looking back on experience. That's me. I look back on experience, I am the doing of that. I exist.

And then there is looking back on that experience and so the thought in which there was a self taking itself to be the phenomenon of looking back on experience, has now become part of the experience looked back on. But it is being looked back on by the looker-backer, so self has simply refreshed itself and made its existence continuous.

There is a different self for each moment, each thought.

What is the difference between saying there is a looker-backer, and there is looking back?

The looker backer is the one doing the looking back. There can't be doings without a doer. Are there doings? Doings are happenings arising from a doer.

Are there happenings that arise without a doer? Is the wind pushing or pulling the clouds? The wind is a doer. What does the wind?

All of this discussion seems like it could be a digression from the central matter of the possible non-existence of the self, and yet it has happened.

^^Bit of a ramble which I could just about deleted but I'll stick it up there in case it's useful.

I want to refocus my investigation so I am referring back to a specific direction you gave me in a previous post:

So, in a sense I experience a contradiction between what pondering or perhaps looking tells me about existence and the moment, and what my operating assumptions about those are.


Yep, I get that. Keep questioning these assumptions by LOOKing at the present moment.

I will look.

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your effort. I am cross-eyed tired this evening. I had a long day of work. Let me go through this and get back to you tomorrow.

When you read this and you are either impatient or dissappointed, etc, LOOK and tell me what the physical sensations are.
How do these physical sensations become 'impatient' or 'anything'?

Thank you for your understanding,

d