The Gate

I am a bit confused how to use this site and post messages. Is this thread public??
Is this the way to respond to your posts/questions?
Are these posts moderated?

Life would be just how it is without my expectations/hopes or my judgment on it.

I imagine it will be more visible to me when the 'I' is not there in the way it is now through which every perception is filtered.

I would see myself more as a part of a bigger flow of life, not as a seperate entity, acting alone, unconnected.

I imagine I'd be free from fear of dying, or at least it would be lessened, if there is no "i" to die. So there is no death as such.

I'd also see others' death differently See it more as a continuous flow rather then beginnings and endings.

I'd be less or no longer self-referential in relating to others or the world around me. I can't get away from the language of I and Mine, but see it as not solid, not fixed.

There would be no need to get stressed out about things. Not that I suffer much from that anyhow.

I would be more present to what is here, not cling to the past or fantasise about the future or future outcomes.

I like to think I would not be attached to people and things - security like home and money- in the same way as I am now.

I wonder if I'd be able to bear pain and discomfort better..?

Everything will be different and everything will be the same I think. Just me relating differently to what is in front of me and myself. Removing the filter of I. Or seeing it is not there in the first place.

My feeling is there would be more awareness of what is passing through 'me' and how I perceive the world, how `i interpret it.

Emotions would be passing through me, not define me. It is there, it comes and goed, it is not 'me'.

Yes, there is just awareness, increasingly so, and that field is infinite. Everything happens in there, although it is not 'inside' of course.

I think it will be a relief not to believe or act in the believe of a separate self.

Dear Kat,

I am a bit confused how to use this site and post messages. Is this thread public??
Is this the way to respond to your posts/questions?
Are these posts moderated?

Yes, this forum is public, and unfortunately posts cannot be moderated after posting. This thread is only for you and me, so this is the platform where our conversation is going to take place.

Here is a bit more help on using the quote function, so you can quote my question and reply under it.
When you post not by pressing the ‘Quick Reply’ but with ‘Post Reply’ (purple-orange button in the left corner of the bottom of the page), then under the text box all the previous posts will appear. You can also “Expand view” of the previous posts if it’s needed. Select/highlight the lines you’d like to quote, press the quote button, and it’ll be automatically put into the text box.

Thank you for your honesty and the detailed list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Life would be just how it is without my expectations/hopes or my judgment on it.

Life is ALREADY is as it is with or without ‘you’ expectations, hopes or judgments.
Ok I get that, thank you.

I imagine it will be more visible to me when the 'I' is not there in the way it is now through which every perception is filtered.

‘You’ are already not there, ‘you’ve never been there. ‘You’ are just an illusion. Regardless this illusion is believed or not, it is not there already, it is just a mirage. So nothing will be more visible to ‘you’. Visibility may happen but without an owner (‘you’).
Right, I get that one too. It strikes me it is a bit about semantics, but I understand the difference between 'I see' and 'seeing happens'.

I would see myself more as a part of a bigger flow of life, not as a seperate entity, acting alone, unconnected.

There is no ‘you’ that could be more part of a flow of life, so ‘you’ can never become un-separated or unconnected. It just simply can be seen that there has never been separation in the first place.
Indeed. This is the difficulty for me often. I understand on some level I am not seperate because there is no 'I' to be seperate. However, feeling cut off is often an issue. The feeling is real as it were, but `I understand intellectually that is is an illusion.

I imagine I'd be free from fear of dying, or at least it would be lessened, if there is no "i" to die. So there is no death as such.

Again, ‘you’ cannot be free from fear of dying. Fear of dying may or may not lessen with seeing through the ‘I’, but without an owner (me). And yes, there is no death as such; death is just an idea, a mental concept.

Semantics for me. If I phrase it differently from 'my fear' and say 'there is fear', is that closer to the truth? So the core of the illusory self is in fact not there, there is no core, but things are happening in my experience. Or to be precise; in experience, cause it isn't 'mine'?

I'd also see others' death differently See it more as a continuous flow rather then beginnings and endings.

This can happen if the concept of death is seen through. However, it is not necessarily part of seeing ‘no-self’.
I think I get that. Thanks.

I'd be less or no longer self-referential in relating to others or the world around me. I can't get away from the language of I and Mine, but see it as not solid, not fixed.

Yes, the words I/me/mine/myself will be definitely seen through. But self-referencing is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

That explains why some of my friends, having gone through this process successfully, are still scatty or have their preferences.

Self-referencing thoughts and stories may arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
Ok. Thoughts are stories. Not experiences.

There would be no need to get stressed out about things. Not that I suffer much from that anyhow.

Getting stressed out or suffering is a conditioned habit and the result of being lost in the content of thoughts (= believing them). So getting stressed out and suffering may decrease, but being lost of the content of thoughts won’t stop at once.
Yes, I understand it's an organic process, not a sudden awakening for most people. Though it can be for some I suppose.

I would be more present to what is here, not cling to the past or fantasise about the future or future outcomes.

‘You’ cannot be more present, because there is no ‘you’ to be more present. However, being present can happen, but expecting that this will be a new constant state is unrealistic. Liberation is not a state. Stories about past and future are also the result of conditioning.

Liberation is not a state. That is helpful. What is it?
I understand that even though 'I' can be seen through, the conditioning takes a longertime to undo or unwind.

I like to think I would not be attached to people and things - security like home and money- in the same way as I am now.

This may or may not happen. Attachments are also conditionings with expectations and desires what these things can give to ‘me’.

So if there is no self, what does attach??

I wonder if I'd be able to bear pain and discomfort better..?

Liberation is not about becoming a fakir or a superhuman :) However, pain can be seen for what it is (only sensation) without the mental story that causes the suffering, but this don’t come as a ‘package’ with seeing through the illusion of the ‘I’.

I do really get that in theory. But it's still a practice, isn't it, even when the I has been seen as illusory?

Everything will be different and everything will be the same I think. Just me relating differently to what is in front of me and myself. Removing the filter of I. Or seeing it is not there in the first place.

Life or outer circumstances won’t change with liberation. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different. However, seeing through the self the filter of ‘I’ won’t be removed. This filter is a result of a lifetime of conditioning. However, upon investigation it can be seen through, and seeing that this filter is nothing more than mental concepts and thoughts, nothing serious, nothing ‘real’.

Yes. Get that. But who perceives? If there is no perceiver?

My feeling is there would be more awareness of what is passing through 'me' and how I perceive the world, how `i interpret it.

Again, there is no ‘you’ that awareness could pass through. And also, ‘you’ don’t perceive or interpret the world in any way. Perception and interpretation happen, but is not done by ‘you’, it is not done by anybody.
Ok, I'm with you on that. It seems it's like a different way of looking at everything. There is not 'me' looking, but there is 'looking'. Hm need to ponder on that one.

Emotions would be passing through me, not define me. It is there, it comes and goed, it is not 'me'.

This is already the case. Emotions are not ‘you’. They are just emotions. ‘You’ cannot be defined, because nothing cannot be defined.
Yes, Cannot define or fix. Everything changes continuously.

Yes, there is just awareness, increasingly so, and that field is infinite. Everything happens in there, although it is not 'inside' of course.

OK. This is a mental story. We will work on the concept of awareness later.
Thanks, that is true. That is a mental concept. Haha!

I think it will be a relief not to believe or act in the believe of a separate self.

Yes, it can happen, but acting on behalf of the belief of a separate self still happens after seeing through the self, because this is a result of a lifetime of conditioning.
Same thing as before then; can see through the illusion but the hard work of undoing conditionng takes a lifetime?

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this Direct Experience, or the Uninterpreted Moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling.

Sounds good. Thank you.

If this is amenable to you, we will begin.
But before we start please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.

Love, Vivien

Dear Kat,

I am a bit confused how to use this site and post messages. Is this thread public??
Is this the way to respond to your posts/questions?
Are these posts moderated?

Yes, this forum is public, and unfortunately posts cannot be moderated after posting. This thread is only for you and me, so this is the platform where our conversation is going to take place.

Here is a bit more help on using the quote function, so you can quote my question and reply under it.
When you post not by pressing the ‘Quick Reply’ but with ‘Post Reply’ (purple-orange button in the left corner of the bottom of the page), then under the text box all the previous posts will appear. You can also “Expand view” of the previous posts if it’s needed. Select/highlight the lines you’d like to quote, press the quote button, and it’ll be automatically put into the text box.

Thank you for your honesty and the detailed list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Life would be just how it is without my expectations/hopes or my judgment on it.

Life is ALREADY is as it is with or without ‘you’ expectations, hopes or judgments.

I imagine it will be more visible to me when the 'I' is not there in the way it is now through which every perception is filtered.

‘You’ are already not there, ‘you’ve never been there. ‘You’ are just an illusion. Regardless this illusion is believed or not, it is not there already, it is just a mirage. So nothing will be more visible to ‘you’. Visibility may happen but without an owner (‘you’).

I would see myself more as a part of a bigger flow of life, not as a seperate entity, acting alone, unconnected.

There is no ‘you’ that could be more part of a flow of life, so ‘you’ can never become un-separated or unconnected. It just simply can be seen that there has never been separation in the first place.

I imagine I'd be free from fear of dying, or at least it would be lessened, if there is no "i" to die. So there is no death as such.

Again, ‘you’ cannot be free from fear of dying. Fear of dying may or may not lessen with seeing through the ‘I’, but without an owner (me). And yes, there is no death as such; death is just an idea, a mental concept.

I'd also see others' death differently See it more as a continuous flow rather then beginnings and endings.

This can happen if the concept of death is seen through. However, it is not necessarily part of seeing ‘no-self’.

I'd be less or no longer self-referential in relating to others or the world around me. I can't get away from the language of I and Mine, but see it as not solid, not fixed.

Yes, the words I/me/mine/myself will be definitely seen through. But self-referencing is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Self-referencing thoughts and stories may arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

There would be no need to get stressed out about things. Not that I suffer much from that anyhow.

Getting stressed out or suffering is a conditioned habit and the result of being lost in the content of thoughts (= believing them). So getting stressed out and suffering may decrease, but being lost of the content of thoughts won’t stop at once.

I would be more present to what is here, not cling to the past or fantasise about the future or future outcomes.

‘You’ cannot be more present, because there is no ‘you’ to be more present. However, being present can happen, but expecting that this will be a new constant state is unrealistic. Liberation is not a state. Stories about past and future are also the result of conditioning.

I like to think I would not be attached to people and things - security like home and money- in the same way as I am now.

This may or may not happen. Attachments are also conditionings with expectations and desires what these things can give to ‘me’.

I wonder if I'd be able to bear pain and discomfort better..?

Liberation is not about becoming a fakir or a superhuman :) However, pain can be seen for what it is (only sensation) without the mental story that causes the suffering, but this don’t come as a ‘package’ with seeing through the illusion of the ‘I’.

Everything will be different and everything will be the same I think. Just me relating differently to what is in front of me and myself. Removing the filter of I. Or seeing it is not there in the first place.

Life or outer circumstances won’t change with liberation. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different. However, seeing through the self the filter of ‘I’ won’t be removed. This filter is a result of a lifetime of conditioning. However, upon investigation it can be seen through, and seeing that this filter is nothing more than mental concepts and thoughts, nothing serious, nothing ‘real’.

My feeling is there would be more awareness of what is passing through 'me' and how I perceive the world, how `i interpret it.

Again, there is no ‘you’ that awareness could pass through. And also, ‘you’ don’t perceive or interpret the world in any way. Perception and interpretation happen, but is not done by ‘you’, it is not done by anybody.

Emotions would be passing through me, not define me. It is there, it comes and goed, it is not 'me'.

This is already the case. Emotions are not ‘you’. They are just emotions. ‘You’ cannot be defined, because nothing cannot be defined.

Yes, there is just awareness, increasingly so, and that field is infinite. Everything happens in there, although it is not 'inside' of course.

OK. This is a mental story. We will work on the concept of awareness later.

I think it will be a relief not to believe or act in the believe of a separate self.

Yes, it can happen, but acting on behalf of the belief of a separate self still happens after seeing through the self, because this is a result of a lifetime of conditioning.

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this Direct Experience, or the Uninterpreted Moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling.

If this is amenable to you, we will begin.
But before we start please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.

Love, Vivien

I'm having trouble with the quote function on my ipad. It can only quote the whole coversation, not parts of it because i cant highlight and copy paragraphs. So this one is a bit messy!

Life is ALREADY is as it is with or without ‘you’ expectations, hopes or judgments.

Ok I get that, thank you.

It strikes me it is a bit about semantics, but I understand the difference between 'I see' and 'seeing happens'.

This is the difficulty for me often. I understand on some level I am not seperate because there is no 'I' to be seperate. However, feeling cut off is often an issue. The feeling is real as it were, but `I understand intellectually that is is an illusion.

Semantics for me. If I phrase it differently from 'my fear' and say 'there is fear', is that closer to the truth? So the core of the illusory self is in fact not there, there is no core, but things are happening in my experience. Or to be precise; in experience, cause it isn't 'mine'?

Ok. Thoughts are stories. Not experiences.

Liberation is not a state. That is helpful. What is it?

So if there is no self, what does attach??

Liberation is not about becoming a fakir or a superhuman :) However, pain can be seen for what it is (only sensation) without the mental story that causes the suffering, but this don’t come as a ‘package’ with seeing through the illusion of the ‘I’.

I do really get that in theory. But it's still a practice, isn't it, even when the I has been seen as illusory?

Yes. Get that. But who perceives? If there is no perceiver?

Vivien wrote:
I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Thanks for bearing with me through the techie challenges!
I will do my best to just copy your questions and put our respective names before it so it's clear.

i experienced some resistance with some questions, the main feeling being one of defensiveness.
With some replies the emotion that arises is indignation, cause i want to be 'right'!

Yes, I have an intellectual understanding of many things and no diect experience.

Groudrules; Agreed. That will work for me and I'll be as honest and non-analytical as I can.

What does the word 'I' point to?

Kat: I don't really know! My first instinct is 'my feelings' but they change all the time. I is a feeling I think. I feel, I see, I am upset, happy, etc. But at the same time I can't really verify that. So I don't know, that's the answer.

I feel and experience life through my body, my senses and no one else feels what I feel, it seems it is therefore my body. It's not yours or anyone elses. Can't say I own it though. I live through it, that is perhaps the best way to put it.

because I experience through my body, it is me.

On a techie note: I cannot find an expanded view button anywhere.

Vivien: Real is something that can be found.

Kat: You mean tangible? In that case a feeling or a thought is not real either, or a principle or an emotion?
Only the physical is real? Or is what I can feel real?
Only what I perveive through my senses is real? How about a felt sense?
I may feel cheerful, but as I cannot locate that in the body as such is it not real?

Kat: Who is thinking, looking, feeling, talking, listening? No one? How can anything be felt, heard or seen if not by someBody?

I just don't know the answer to that. 'I' have feelings, but there is no 'I' to be found. Rats.
Am 'I' feelings? No, don't think so. It seems just there. With or without me.

I don't know where I am. I'm pretty elusive basically. There is my mind playing this trick of hide and seek. I can't find 'I', so it must be somewhere else more subtly present. But that is not true either.

Kat: I don't know what experiences senses if it's not me. But 'I' is not there to be found.

Kat: Who is having thoughts, opinions etc? No one? But they are there. It's all there, except for 'I'.