The Gate

Hi, my name's Jackson. West coast USA. For the last two years I've been all over the place (mentally speaking) starting with psychedelics which kickstarted me into reading the Tao De Ching, Buddhist sutras, then going on one of those 10-day Goenka retreats, where, thank Whoever, someone clued me into Jed McKenna and Adyashanti. Went through a lot of their stuff, and a bit of UG Krishnamurti and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj (thanks for having such easy names to spell dudes). I guess Gateless must have popped in my Amazon recs after that. I've been looking through the site, the threads and videos for a couple weeks now, honestly a little too chicken to take the next step I guess, of having someone help me with direct pointing. Probably because it seems to work.

At each step on this journey, I've found something to blow my mind, something to chew on (and then spit out of course!). I'm certain now that whatever this body-mind complex is, it's nothing like what I had always unquestioningly assumed it was. The ego is a sham, a silly joke that language has played on virtually all of humanity. I'm sure that there exists no combination of words or thoughts, no teaching or method, that can do anything more than vaguely describe true reality. Heck, maybe I'm most of the way through this thing, and just have some shred of selfness hanging onto the edge of that proverbial cliff.

My major questions seem to have shifted from is there an "I" (NO, although the structure is still there, nobody's home) to scarier things like does there exist such things as choice, free will and decisions? As I cannot control, stop, or influence my thoughts, it follows that the same is true for actions and choices. But are actions even a consequence of thought, or does acting simply happen while thought creates a tempest in a teacup and pretends it has something to do with it all? What is it in me thats not accepting this? What is left to give up or be surrendered? I don't know. *I* am not here, but I'm not quite *there* yet.

Even just writing this now I can feel the truth of it, but it's either too subtle or too terrifying to stare right into. All I see when I try is fear, but it's fear of what? Of losing my framework of time and space, self and other. And behind that fear...nothing that I can see. Just layers of automatic protection, jolts of adrenaline, sleepiness, anger. Seemingly anything to keep from me from looking right at it. But then again, there is no one here to be looking for anything! So...so what then?

Well hopefully thats enough rambling to get me started on here. You all seem fantastic and are likely performing the greatest service it is possible for one being to give another (not that you're giving or doing anything, but y'all know what I mean). So thanks in advance and lets get rolling!

Hi,

Welcome on LU. I'm happy to assist you with seeing the illusion of the self.

Thank you for your detailed introduction.

What are your expectations about liberation?
How would you change?
How would life change?

Please list all the expextations even the seemingly small ones.

Love, Vivien

Thanks Vivien, I'm excited to get started!

What are your expectations about liberation?

Well, I certainly think I've had a glimpse or flash of what to expect on a few occasions. I don't expect any of that perfect being/higher self nonsense anymore. I guess I expect a permanent state of directly experiencing reality without the filters and frameworks grown over a lifetime. I expect to see whats really happening, and watch it happening, without concepts of should, shouldn't, can, can't, good, bad, etc. coloring the experience. I no longer expect at this point that I'll be happier, smarter, more holy, whatever. Honestly, the whole "seeking" concept itself seems to be wearing thin at this point. The Zen expression "not an inch of ground to stand on" has been going through my head recently, as the construct of "me" seems thinner and less real every time I take a good look at it. So I expect to be something other than "self," but what that is, I have no name for. It seems to just be an absence, a vacuum, or pure empty potential.

Honestly, I guess just want to kick off my shoes, move to the passenger seat in the car of life, and watch my life / the world go by. I want to know that there was never and liberation or anyone to be liberated. Does that sound lazy or selfish or crazy? It does. Does it also sound like liberation? I think so.

How would you change?

I expect I'd change into nothing! As far as what would happen to this body and mind, I expect things to be lighter, simpler, more relaxed and flow-like without a divisive mind in the way. I expect some parts of me will change and some will stay the same. Will I have control over this? I guess not. But if indeed I never have, then no problem. I might change, I might not. But something in me is unwilling or unable to give up control, even with the intellectual understanding that there can be no control (or do I just wish I had that understanding? Is there is difference?) Either way it's not a direct experience. Its a weird, contradictory place to be.

How would life change?

Hmm, nothing comes up immediately for this. Life is life and I don't expect it would change at all. My experience of it would be the only thing that could change. I don't want to fight with or object to life anymore. It is what it is and nothing - certainly not a non-existent "I" - could change that. That surrender is what I'm really looking for I guess.

But running counter to all this is the idea that "expecting" is quite useless, as "expecting" is just an ill-informed guess entirely based on past experiences, and none of my past experiences seem to have much bearing on this (except, perhaps for a very early childhood before I 'grew' an ego, but I have no memories going back that far).

Thanks again Vivien, hope I didn't get too far off topic in my answers! :)

••J

Hi Jackson,

Thank you for your honesty and the detailed description about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

I certainly think I've had a glimpse or flash of what to expect on a few occasions.

Whatever those glimpses were, they are over. Finished. They are only memories, only thoughts (stories) arising now. They can be hindrances of seeing what is, if you try to compare any current experiencing with those memories. So it’s better to let them go and be what they are, only thoughts (memories) arising in the present moment.

I guess I expect a permanent state of directly experiencing reality without the filters and frameworks grown over a lifetime. I expect to see whats really happening, and watch it happening, without concepts of should, shouldn't, can, can't, good, bad, etc. coloring the experience.

This is quite unlikely to happen. Those ‘filters’ and ‘frameworks’ are the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Concept of should or shouldn’t may arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity "self" is not a State. When you SEE it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a State to "abide in". It's not.

I no longer expect at this point that I'll be happier, smarter, more holy, whatever.

Good :)

So I expect to be something other than "self," but what that is, I have no name for. It seems to just be an absence, a vacuum, or pure empty potential.

This is a mental speculation about what it would be like. If ‘your’ experiences don’t match the expectation of ‘absence’, vacuum’ or ‘pure empty potential’ then what? These expectations (thoughts) can cover up what is here and now.

Honestly, I guess just want to kick off my shoes, move to the passenger seat in the car of life, and watch my life / the world go by. I want to know that there was never and liberation or anyone to be liberated.

Yes, ‘liberation’ is about seeing that there has never been a self, but there is no body that can be liberated.
Watching the ‘life’ can happen, however, there is no ‘you’ that could kick off its shoes, move to the passenger seat and watch its life. ‘You’ don’t have a life or own life. Life IS.

I expect I'd change into nothing!

:) You cannot change into nothing. You are ALREADY nothing. :) So, nothing will change into nothing. ‘You’ are just an illusion. An illusion does not exist. So, what already doesn’t exist cannot change. Only the belief that there is a ‘you’ will evaporate, like the Santa story.

As far as what would happen to this body and mind, I expect things to be lighter, simpler, more relaxed and flow-like without a divisive mind in the way.

Things may or may not be lighter, simpler or more relaxed. Outer circumstances won’t change, only the perception of ‘them’. There is no divisive mind in the way. There is either being lost in the content of thoughts (= believing thoughts) or seeing them only as arising thoughts.

I expect some parts of me will change and some will stay the same. Will I have control over this? I guess not. But if indeed I never have, then no problem. I might change, I might not.

‘You’ don’t have parts that could or could not change. There are only conditionings. And yes, ‘you’ won’t have control over them, since you have never had any control over anything. An idea cannot control anything.

But something in me is unwilling or unable to give up control, even with the intellectual understanding that there can be no control (or do I just wish I had that understanding? Is there is difference?) Either way it's not a direct experience. Its a weird, contradictory place to be.

Yes, currently this is an intellectual understanding, but this is what we are going to work on. It is contradictory, because there is a conflict between the belief in the existence of the self and a new emerging belief that there is no-self. But we don’t need another belief (no-self) on the top of the old belief (there is a ‘me’). Seeing what is ‘real’ and what not will dissolve the old belief without a need for a new one.

Life is life and I don't expect it would change at all. My experience of it would be the only thing that could change.

Yes, only the perception would change, circumstances stay the same.

I don't want to fight with or object to life anymore. It is what it is and nothing - certainly not a non-existent "I" - could change that. That surrender is what I'm really looking for I guess.

Yes, this is a ‘good’ aim. But, there is no ‘you’ that could surrender to what is. Things (or life) happen with or without ‘your supposed surrender’. However, surrender could happen (but without an owner, ‘you’).

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this Direct Experience, or the Uninterpreted Moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
7. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.

Love, Vivien

Is there any resistance to any of it? Whatever those glimpses were, they are over. Finished. They are only memories, only thoughts (stories) arising now. They can be hindrances of seeing what is, if you try to compare any current experiencing with those memories. So it’s better to let them go and be what they are, only thoughts (memories) arising in the present moment.

Sadness at this. That the concept of “progress” or “I’m getting closer” is just another thought that can’t do anything. A major function of the mind seems to be to compare the current experience to the past or the future. Slight feeling of being lost or adrift.

This is quite unlikely to happen. Those ‘filters’ and ‘frameworks’ are the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Understood. I don’t expect all that to happen at once. I understand that seeing self as illusion has to happen, and whatever follows, follows. I’m sure there will be a long and sometimes messy cleanup after (not that “I” will have to worry about it).

Concept of should or shouldn’t may arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

Yes, I should have said “without BELIEVING concepts of should, shouldn’t” etc. Not that such thoughts will never arise, or even that they would’t be useful in some way. But yes, seeing their existence and their unreality simultaneously.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity "self" is not a State. When you SEE it, the knowledge becomes factual.

Yes, nothing to try for, just something to be (to have always been). A relaxed feeling at reading this, mixed with a bit of frustration at not having seen it yet of course :)

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

No, the experience of discovery is over in an instant, then replaced by another belief. “Real” replaced by “Not Real” but the change itself was just a flash. Feel like I’m getting some traction here regarding not simply switching from a “self” belief to a “no self” belief. A state of neither believing nor not believing.

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a State to "abide in". It's not.

Big alert of something here, definite shattering of an expectation I had. Fear and excitement. The idea of a “stateless state” or something beyond state and non-state seems a bit clearer (although I’m not making it sound clear, haha)

If ‘your’ experiences don’t match the expectation of ‘absence’, vacuum’ or ‘pure empty potential’ then what? These expectations (thoughts) can cover up what is here and now.

Understood. It has to be a seeing through of ALL expectations, and realization they have no power except to distort.

‘liberation’ is about seeing that there has never been a self, but there is no body that can be liberated. Watching the ‘life’ can happen, however, there is no ‘you’ that could kick off its shoes, move to the passenger seat and watch its life. ‘You’ don’t have a life or own life. Life IS.

Wow. Ok, getting something here for sure. “‘You’ don’t have a life or own life. Life IS.” Thinking about that feels like looking right into the sun, haha. A feeling I’ve only recently become aware of (since starting this a few years ago), the feeling of my body ‘knowing’ something is just right, but that it doesn’t fit with my beliefs. A little pain and contraction, but something has been cut loose.

You cannot change into nothing. You are ALREADY nothing. :) So, nothing will change into nothing. ‘You’ are just an illusion. An illusion does not exist. So, what already doesn’t exist cannot change. Only the belief that there is a ‘you’ will evaporate, like the Santa story.

Yes, like an onion, there is no core, only layers. My brain is really buzzing now.

Things may or may not be lighter, simpler or more relaxed. Outer circumstances won’t change, only the perception of ‘them’. There is no divisive mind in the way. There is either being lost in the content of thoughts (= believing thoughts) or seeing them only as arising thoughts.

Yes, I am getting lost in the contents of thoughts (the story of me) less and less these days. Future thoughts especially have really lost their potency recently. Contemplating the idea that “no thought is true” or “no belief is true.” But then there is literally just a blank. What thought could follow that thought?

‘You’ don’t have parts that could or could not change. There are only conditionings. And yes, ‘you’ won’t have control over them, since you have never had any control over anything. An idea cannot control anything.

And since “I” am just an idea, “I” can’t control anything. Illusion is truth until you see through the illusion. “I” am not in control of my thoughts, am I? It seems so impossible. Scared.

Yes, currently this is an intellectual understanding, but this is what we are going to work on. It is contradictory, because there is a conflict between the belief in the existence of the self and a new emerging belief that there is no-self. But we don’t need another belief (no-self) on the top of the old belief (there is a ‘me’). Seeing what is ‘real’ and what not will dissolve the old belief without a need for a new one.

Aha! I think this might have been a sticking point for me. Having nothing to replace the belief in self with left my mind flailing for another belief to grab onto. Like I can’t un-believe in the self until I have something else to believe in. But thats not right is it? NO belief is true, and no opposite or opposing belief is true either. What is left after that? Literally nothing, like not a tiny? No shiny new belief, nothing to learn or grasp. Yikes.

But, there is no ‘you’ that could surrender to what is. Things (or life) happen with or without ‘your supposed surrender’. However, surrender could happen (but without an owner, ‘you’).

When I first read this, I didn’t know what to say, but while typing out these other answers, I start to get your meaning. If “I” can’t even surrender or not surrender…”I” can’t do (or not do) ANYTHING. Even something as passive as surrender is still an action, still a movement against what IS to what “I” might want it to be. Oh, I think I’m going to like this direct pointing thing :)

Ok, I read, watched, and agree to the ground rules. I’m happy to have you as my guide Vivien.

••J

Dear Jackson,

Sadness at this. That the concept of “progress” or “I’m getting closer” is just another thought that can’t do anything.

Just because there is no ‘you’ that could get closer or making progress, it does not mean that progress doesn’t occur. Progress can happen, but without a ‘you’ that could own it.

A major function of the mind seems to be to compare the current experience to the past or the future.

Yes, exactly.

What is past?
What is future?
What is the difference between ‘past’ or ‘future’ and current experiencing?

Slight feeling of being lost or adrift.

Examine closely this sentence above.

How being lost is felt?
How is it experienced?
Can being lost be felt?

Yes, I should have said “without BELIEVING concepts of should, shouldn’t” etc. Not that such thoughts will never arise, or even that they would’t be useful in some way. But yes, seeing their existence and their unreality simultaneously.

After seeing through the illusion of the self, being lost in the content of a thought (like should or shouldn’t) still can happen. Because both being lost in the content of a thought (= believing it or with other words, identifying with it) and seeing it only as an arising thought are the result of conditioning.

A relaxed feeling at reading this, mixed with a bit of frustration at not having seen it yet of course :)

What is frustration?
How it is experienced?
How it is known that it is frustration and not something else?

Feel like I’m getting some traction here regarding not simply switching from a “self” belief to a “no self” belief.

How is this felt?
How it is known that it is a traction?

Big alert of something here, definite shattering of an expectation I had. Fear and excitement. The idea of a “stateless state” or something beyond state and non-state seems a bit clearer (although I’m not making it sound clear, haha)

What I mean by “liberation is not a state” is that it is nothing special. There won’t be a constant peace, love or any altered state. It is totally ‘normal’ just as ‘you’ sit here. The only difference that now there is a belief that ‘you’ are sitting here; after seeing no-self, it is just sitting. Nothing is going to change. Sitting is the same both prior and after. No state involved.

Understood. It has to be a seeing through of ALL expectations, and realization they have no power except to distort.

Exactly. But does an expectation by itself have a power to distort anything?
Does the expectation (the content of it) have to disappear in order to not have a power?
Or it is ‘enough’ to see for what it is, just simple thoughts arising now, and not being lost in their contents?

“‘You’ don’t have a life or own life. Life IS.” Thinking about that feels like looking right into the sun, haha.

How it is know that this is felt?
Can “looking right into the sun” be felt?
With witch of the senses this is felt?
Where is this ‘I’ that thinks of it?
What is this ‘I’?

Go to the direct experience of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, thouching/feeling, tasting, smelling), ignoring thoughts, and report from there.

My brain is really buzzing now.

How this buzzing is experienced?
In direct experience, where is this ‘I’ that has a brain?

Don’t think about it, but LOOK.

Contemplating the idea that “no thought is true” or “no belief is true.” But then there is literally just a blank. What thought could follow that thought?

Don’t just contemplate on it, but LOOK with the 5 senses.
Yes, thoughts cannot go BEHIND thoughts. Thinking has to be left behind in order to SEE.

“I” am not in control of my thoughts, am I? It seems so impossible. Scared.

There is nothing to be scared of. Nothing will be lost. ‘You’ ALREADY don’t exist, so nothing will change. :) Being scared is just a trick. A trick that can help keep the illusion. Being scared is the part of the illusion.

Observe any arising fear or scare, pay particular attention to the five senses.

Is there a feeling of fear or being scared in direct experience, or there are only sensations in the body, with a simultaneously arising thought-label “this is fear” or “I’m scared”?

Aha! I think this might have been a sticking point for me. Having nothing to replace the belief in self with left my mind flailing for another belief to grab onto. Like I can’t un-believe in the self until I have something else to believe in. But thats not right is it? NO belief is true, and no opposite or opposing belief is true either. What is left after that? Literally nothing, like not a tiny? No shiny new belief, nothing to learn or grasp. Yikes.

It’s funny, ahh? How thoughts suggest that there is a need for another belief to grasp onto. Beliefs ‘belongs’ to the realm of thinking. Seeing no-self is BEYOND thinking, or BEHIND thinking. No thoughts can go there. ‘Reality’ exist before any thoughts.

What is a belief?
Please describe it as accurately as you can in ‘your’ interpretation.

If “I” can’t even surrender or not surrender…”I” can’t do (or not do) ANYTHING. Even something as passive as surrender is still an action, still a movement against what IS to what “I” might want it to be.

Yes, but…
Where or how surrender can happen?
In direct experience, what is surrender?
Where is it? Where it happens?
In ‘reality’ is there a ‘real’ movement against what IS with ‘surrender’ or any action?
Can surrender or no-surrender have any effect on what IS?

Love, Vivien

Just because there is no ‘you’ that could get closer or making progress, it does not mean that progress doesn’t occur. Progress can happen, but without a ‘you’ that could own it.

Yes, I think I understand. The “I” is created as a way to explain why things happen in retrospect. We assemble an ego an identity to avoid the inescapable fact that everything we are comes from nowhere, without a “cause” in the sense of physical cause-and-effect. We see cause and effect in the psychical world, and assume the same principles apply to thoughts, words and actions. But why should that be the case? In fact it’s obviously not the case. Hard to put this into words.

What is past?
What is future?
What is the difference between ‘past’ or ‘future’ and current experiencing?

Past is nothing. A grasping at experience that is no longer there. A pulling away from the present. The past is also unchangeable, but then again, the present is unchangeable too, isn’t it? Because the mind always lags behind the present by an instant with it’s judgements and interpretations, so it’s always in the past. It can only judge/interpret what has already happened. In the present the mind does not, and cannot exist.

The future is, well, really also the past. An illusion spun from what has come before, colored by fear or hope or whatever and projected forward in time. But the content of future predictions can never be anything more than a conclusion reached from past experiences.

So in current experience, there can be focus on the past, either using it to attempt to predict some vastly unknowable future, or sort of drowning the present in memories of previous - absent - states of being. In current experience the “I” doesn’t have time to exist, it always follows, always in the past.

After seeing through the illusion of the self, being lost in the content of a thought (like should or shouldn’t) still can happen. Because both being lost in the content of a thought (= believing it or with other words, identifying with it) and seeing it only as an arising thought are the result of conditioning.

Ah, I was very confused by this the first time I read it, but now I’m coming back to after answering most of the other questions you posed. Yes, I see how both belief in thought and disbelief of thoughts are still both beliefs! They just ARE. Believing anything about them one way or the other is useless and only adds layers of cloudiness on top of them.

What I mean by “liberation is not a state” is that it is nothing special. There won’t be a constant peace, love or any altered state. It is totally ‘normal’ just as ‘you’ sit here. The only difference that now there is a belief that ‘you’ are sitting here; after seeing no-self, it is just sitting. Nothing is going to change. Sitting is the same both prior and after. No state involved.

Yes, like the Santa story, things keep operating (presents keep showing up) in exactly the same way, because your personal belief in Santa or non-Santa (ha!) was having zero effect on reality. No belief or dis-belief can effect or change reality.

Exactly. But does an expectation by itself have a power to distort anything?
Does the expectation (the content of it) have to disappear in order to not have a power?
Or it is ‘enough’ to see for what it is, just simple thoughts arising now, and not being lost in their contents?

No, expectations are beliefs projected into the future. They are just as false, and have no actual power. “Does the expectation (the content of it) have to disappear in order to not have a power?” NO! It never did and never could have whether is appears or not or is believed or not. Zero effect on what is. This seems true for beliefs, thoughts, feeling , expectations, fears, anything else mind-generated I could list . Whoa.

How being lost is felt?
How is it experienced?
Can being lost be felt?

How it is know that this is felt?
Can “looking right into the sun” be felt?
With witch of the senses this is felt?

What is frustration?
How it is experienced?
How it is known that it is frustration and not something else?

How is this felt?
How it is known that it is a traction?

How this buzzing is experienced?

Don’t think about it, but LOOK.

I’ll do all these at once if you don’t mind :)

All these feeling are just labels for a sensations that are reified (solidified) by the act of labeling and the string of thoughts that come after. Labeling certain sensations on the body with names and calling them good or bad. This jolt is fear, this tingle is sadness. But they are all just sensation arising from nothing for no known reason, and hastily labeled and avoided/grasped by the mind sorting them into pleasant or unpleasant.

In direct experience, where is this ‘I’ that has a brain?
Where is this ‘I’ that thinks of it?
What is this ‘I’?

In immediate experience, there is no owner of this brain or body, these sensation or thoughts. They happen, and they interact, and the body and mind act. But an “I” is not to be found in the moment. Just another label that takes credit or blame for what has happened.

Don’t just contemplate on it, but LOOK with the 5 senses.
Yes, thoughts cannot go BEHIND thoughts. Thinking has to be left behind in order to SEE.

Yes, this is true, thinking can only form the illusion of a past or future, not effect the present in any way.

There is nothing to be scared of. Nothing will be lost. ‘You’ ALREADY don’t exist, so nothing will change. :) Being scared is just a trick. A trick that can help keep the illusion. Being scared is the part of the illusion.

Yes, in direct experience, what I would usually label fear is more just like a simple physical jolt or rapid arising (from nowhere to nowhere) of energy. Just a sensation that triggers labeling (“fear”) and escape into the past or future.

Observe any arising fear or scare, pay particular attention to the five senses.

Is there a feeling of fear or being scared in direct experience, or there are only sensations in the body, with a simultaneously arising thought-label “this is fear” or “I’m scared”?

Haha, well I wrote the above response before I read this (promise!) so you tell me :)

It’s funny, ahh? How thoughts suggest that there is a need for another belief to grasp onto. Beliefs ‘belongs’ to the realm of thinking. Seeing no-self is BEYOND thinking, or BEHIND thinking. No thoughts can go there. ‘Reality’ exist before any thoughts.

Yes, before any divisions or categories, before labels of ‘good’ ‘bad’ or ‘mine’. Thoughts can only break down reality (useful for getting along in the world, but not ultimately true in any respect)

What is a belief?
Please describe it as accurately as you can in ‘your’ interpretation.

A belief is sort of a collection of automatic, bunched-up thoughts. Thoughts you are so good at thinking you don’t even know you are thinking them. The ultimate form of buying into “my” view of the world. Unquestioned assumptions that become unconscious facts.

Where or how surrender can happen?

It can’t

In direct experience, what is surrender?

Direct experience IS surrender. Assuming anything called surrender can be said to exist at all, DE of the present moment has to be it. “I” do not exist in the present moment, so to live in the present moment is necessarily to live without “I”

Where is it? Where it happens?

It cannot be located as “happening” in any certain place, only that a happening is happening

In ‘reality’ is there a ‘real’ movement against what IS with ‘surrender’ or any action?

No, nothing in reality can truly move against reality. Any perceived movement against reality must be an illusion.

Can surrender or no-surrender have any effect on what IS?

No. Neither surrender nor non-surrender, or any framework or thought stated in any way can have any effect on what is.

Hi Jackson,

Yes, I think I understand. The “I” is created as a way to explain why things happen in retrospect. We assemble an ego an identity to avoid the inescapable fact that everything we are comes from nowhere, without a “cause” in the sense of physical cause-and-effect.

Is this clearly seen or is it rather a mental speculation?
What is the ‘I’ that thinks this?
What is the ego in direct experience (with the 5 senses)?
How is it experienced? How is it known that this is the so called ‘ego’?

The past is also unchangeable, but then again, the present is unchangeable too, isn’t it?

What is ‘past’ in direct experience?
Does past exist?
Does past have ever happened?
If yes, how is it known?

Because the mind always lags behind the present by an instant with it’s judgements and interpretations, so it’s always in the past. It can only judge/interpret what has already happened. In the present the mind does not, and cannot exist.

Good observations.
What is the ‘mind’ in direct experience?
Does the ‘mind’ exist outside of the present moment?
Does the ‘mind’ exist at all?

The future is, well, really also the past.

What is future in direct experience?

So in current experience, there can be focus on the past, either using it to attempt to predict some vastly unknowable future, or sort of drowning the present in memories of previous - absent - states of being.

Can the present be drowned by ‘past’ or ‘future’?
Is there anything outside of the present moment?

In current experience the “I” doesn’t have time to exist, it always follows, always in the past.

You write that the ‘I’ doesn’t exist in the present, but does it exist outside of the present moment?
Does ‘I’ exist in the past?
Does ‘I’ exist in the future?

In immediate experience, there is no owner of this brain or body, these sensation or thoughts.

Here is an interesting exercise with the body.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With ONLY the input from those four senses, and WITHOUT relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in direct experience?

Yes, in direct experience, what I would usually label fear is more just like a simple physical jolt or rapid arising (from nowhere to nowhere) of energy. Just a sensation that triggers labeling (“fear”) and escape into the past or future.

Does the sensation triggers labelling, or the sensation and labelling are just simultaneously arising phenomena?
What escapes into the past or future?
Can anything escape into the past or future?

Thoughts can only break down reality

Can thoughts really break down ‘reality’?
Or thoughts are just simply thoughts ABOUT reality?
Can thoughts do anything?
Can thoughts have a power over anything?

“I” do not exist in the present moment, so to live in the present moment is necessarily to live without “I”

Do ‘you’ exist outside of the present moment? Where?
Is there anything outside of the present moment?
Is there anything that is not ‘in’ the present moment?

Any perceived movement against reality must be an illusion.

Yes. Any perceived movement against ‘reality’ is just the content of a thought.

Love, Vivien

Hi Jackson,

How things are going?

Hi Vivien, meant to post this morning but I traveled unexpectedly today.

Its hard to explain whats happening right now, and for the last few days. So many questions are falling away, it's hard to produce answers that can be put into words. Even trying to write this at the moment, I just don't know. My mind as I'm used to understanding it seems to be slowing down or quieting down or getting simple. And something else (more accurately nothing else?) is in that space, opening up. There's just...being here. I don't know, thats not right either. No words seem right anymore. But here are the answers that arose.

Is this clearly seen or is it rather a mental speculation?

I see that “I” is created as a concept or explanation for where actions and decisions come from. It doesn't not exist and is not true. I expected to see through the "I", but right now it is much more like seeing that there is nothing to see through in the first place, and no one to see through it. The mind objects to this, throwing up thoughts of confusion and doubt, but there can be no confusion or doubt about this. I accept that this is true, and that it makes no sense, and that it doesn't have to make sense, and that the concepts 'this makes sense' and 'this doesn't make sense' are just fabrications. OK, this is just babbling now, hopefully the meaning is clear even if the words aren't :)

What is the ‘I’ that thinks this?

“I” appears a type of thought or group of thoughts that often occurs after events. To say the “I” thinks anything is incorrect. “I” is just what events are assigned to by the mind after a thought or action.

What is the ego in direct experience (with the 5 senses)?

I can’t find anything more than a sense of being, of existence or awareness

How is it experienced? How is it known that this is the so called ‘ego’?

It is experienced as a narrowing or focus or perception. Why or how this happens or what it is, I don't know.

What is ‘past’ in direct experience?
Does past exist?
Does past have ever happened?
If yes, how is it known?

I don’t know. In direct experience, the past does not exist. Individual events don’t really exist as separate entities, only in relation to and co-arising with other events. So even to say “certain event X happened in the past” cannot be true, we can only say that all events in general are ongoing in the present moment. The past must exist in some way, but on the other hand, it seems true that only “happening” exists, not “has happened”. It cannot be known.

Good observations.
What is the ‘mind’ in direct experience?
Does the ‘mind’ exist outside of the present moment?
Does the ‘mind’ exist at all?

No! Wow, just another label. A huge bundle of very cleverly put together excuses to explain past and current thoughts and actions. Just another way to cover up the fact that things just happen and we can’t know why. Why not just drop the whole messy business and admit that all concepts, labels and identifications are substance-less fabrications? If mind is then they all are. To come out of identification with the mind and the self seems to be to come out of ALL conceptual grasping of reality.

What is future in direct experience?

A conjecture based on memory and egoic desire. It does not exist in any way.

Can the present be drowned by ‘past’ or ‘future’?
Is there anything outside of the present moment?

No, mind invents anything outside of the present moment. Anything, anything at all that is happening can only happen now.

You write that the ‘I’ doesn’t exist in the present, but does it exist outside of the present moment?
Does ‘I’ exist in the past?
Does ‘I’ exist in the future?

No, no certain thing called “I” is to be found in the present, past, or future.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With ONLY the input from those four senses, and WITHOUT relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, only a memory of the body in relation to other things. Size and distance cannot be perceived with these 4 senses.

Does it have a weight or a volume?

No, there are sensations of pressure on the seat, but ‘weight’ is a label
There is a feeling of the body existing in space, but the outline of this existence is not definite.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No.

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, only the most general sense of presence, not a definable form

Is there an inside or outside?

There does not seem to be. There is a sense of awareness of existence. But this awareness is inside and outside the body.

What is the body in direct experience?

There is the interaction of my nerves, eyes, ears, etc with stimuli. But there is only interaction, not 'inside' or 'outside'. This is too weird to be true, but it is the observed fact.

Does the sensation triggers labelling, or the sensation and labelling are just simultaneously arising phenomena?

Yes, even recognizing “This is just sensation” is a further label. Perceiving and labeling must arise together, even when the label is something tricky like “this is energy, this is sensation.” Just subtler labels. In order to be “felt” or “perceived” at all, sensation is always solidified and labeled in some way. Otherwise, “I” would have no idea of specific sensations happening, it would all just be one big happening.

What escapes into the past or future?
Can anything escape into the past or future?

I don’t know. Memories or speculations or planning just occur

Can thoughts really break down ‘reality’?
Or thoughts are just simply thoughts ABOUT reality?

No, they can attempt to describe or excuse or take credit for reality, but truly they cannot “do” anything in an active sense.

Can thoughts do anything?
Can thoughts have a power over anything?

No, they only attempt to explain or excuse things have already happened. By the time thought comes in, the action or decision has already occurred somehow. I don’t know how. “Choice” and “decision” are a big coverup by the “I”. They really mean: “I have no idea why this is happening or what this body/mind will do.” “I” don’t have a choice, just endless labels to cover over the fact that life and me just happen. When the unknown resolves into some event or action, we call that transition “choice” but what choice can there be in the unfolding of reality?

Do ‘you’ exist outside of the present moment? Where?
Is there anything outside of the present moment?
Is there anything that is not ‘in’ the present moment?

No, concepts of past and future arise in the present moment, just like everything else. They have no independent existence at all. And are not “other” than the present moment, just various thoughts arising and labeled as “past” or “future”. There cannot be anything that is not contained in the immediate present, now matter how “outside” of immediate experience it may appear to be. Very simple, so much more simple than the massive, self-contradictory web the “I” has built up to explain why it is the cause and source of everything. What arrogance!

Thank you Vivien, this is a strange and wonderful thing
••J

Dear Jackson,

I can’t find anything more than a sense of being, of existence or awareness

How ‘awareness’ is experienced with the 5 senses (in DE)?
Can ‘awareness’ be experienced at all?
Or these are just contents of thoughts?
What if awareness is just a story, just a label?

There is a feeling of the body existing in space, but the outline of this existence is not definite.

How ‘space’ or “feeling of the body existing in space” is experienced with the 5 senses?
Can space be experienced at all, or it is just the content of another thought?

There is a sense of awareness of existence. But this awareness is inside and outside the body.

Again, how ‘awareness’ is experienced with the 5 senses?
Can ‘awareness’ be inside or outside of the body?
Or is this just another label on current sensations?

There is the interaction of my nerves, eyes, ears, etc with stimuli. But there is only interaction, not 'inside' or 'outside'.

How ‘nerves’ are experienced with the 5 senses?
How eyes or ears are experienced with the 5 senses?
Can eyes or ears be experienced at all, or only mental images and thoughts suggest this?
Do the ears hear, or just hearing happening and thoughts and images arise suggesting that the ‘ears hear’?
Do the eyes see, or just seeing happening and thoughts and images arise suggesting that seeing happens through the eyes?

By the time thought comes in, the action or decision has already occurred somehow. I don’t know how. “Choice” and “decision” are a big coverup by the “I”. They really mean: “I have no idea why this is happening or what this body/mind will do.” “I” don’t have a choice, just endless labels to cover over the fact that life and me just happen. When the unknown resolves into some event or action, we call that transition “choice” but what choice can there be in the unfolding of reality?

Do ‘you’ have responsibly for anything?
Do ‘others have responsibility for anything?

Thank you Vivien, this is a strange and wonderful thing

I’m happy for you :)
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate self that could own or control life or anything?

Love, Vivien

Dear Vivien,

I’m writing this first paragraph after going through the other questions. I got it! I mean, there's nothing to get, and no one to get anything, but I got it (yeah you know what I mean english is really terrible for talking about this stuff). Dropping everything, all the labels, all the seeking, all the trying, all the questions that only result in further labels and categories. And things just happen, almost like watching a movie. Actions, thoughts, sensations, sensory input, labeling; all are like streams of information and noticed as “oh, this is what its like to be going about as a human, how interesting!” Very odd, very much indeed like ‘waking up’ to something that was always there, while there also is no action called ‘waking up’ to do and no ‘one’ that can do it. Everything seems much more and much less realistic at the same time. There’s still thoughts and sensations, but nothing for them to get wrapped up in, so they just float around for a while then go away. Even writing just happens, although words that make sense to say about this are coming pretty slowly, and don’t really capture it very well. Amazing how all this just goes on, a brain working just like lungs breathing or a heart beating, the strangest thing. Everything just clicking along like it has to. And the Santa analogy is very good too (think that was in one of the videos here) cause once that belief is dropped, you see it was never, ever true to begin with! Hmm, now some of the answers below already seem silly, but I’ll leave them as they are. Huh, well what in the world do I do now? hahaha silly question…

How ‘awareness’ is experienced with the 5 senses (in DE)?
Can ‘awareness’ be experienced at all?
Or these are just contents of thoughts?
What if awareness is just a story, just a label?

Hmm, yes, noticing ‘this is awareness’ or similar thoughts are still just thoughts, still not part of reality. Awareness is a subtle label, but still a label, and so like all labels pulls away from what IS. Neither ‘awareness’ nor ‘awakeness’ nor any other concept can be sufficient to describe what is. Nothing can. ANY description is just more mental grasping, no matter how subtle or ‘enlightened-sounding’ the language is. No thought or concept and be directly experienced at all, they all are nothing in direct experience.

How ‘space’ or “feeling of the body existing in space” is experienced with the 5 senses?
Can space be experienced at all, or it is just the content of another thought?

Yes, even all the way down to “I am” or “this body exists” appears to be just more thoughts and concepts that have never been questioned. There is nothing that “I” can really know about an experience of any kind, there’s only the experience.

How ‘nerves’ are experienced with the 5 senses?
How eyes or ears are experienced with the 5 senses?
Can eyes or ears be experienced at all, or only mental images and thoughts suggest this?

Seeing and hearing happen, but I don’t know how. 'nerves' are just a certain type of sensation or vibration that comes out of nowhere and gets an unnecessary label. But without a label it is not experienced as "nerves' or anything else. Its just part of whats going on.

Do the ears hear, or just hearing happening and thoughts and images arise suggesting that the ‘ears hear’?
Do the eyes see, or just seeing happening and thoughts and images arise suggesting that seeing happens through the eyes?

Yes, hearing just happens, seeing just happens. Asking ‘what sees?’ or ‘what hears?’ doesn't have an experiential answer, because like all questions, it is just looking for another label or definition to put on top of reality.

Do ‘you’ have responsibly for anything?
Do ‘others have responsibility for anything?

No, there is no “I” to be responsible, for me or anyone else.

I’m happy for you :)
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate self that could own or control life or anything?

Whatever it is that is animating and experiencing life, it does not own or control anything.

Well, I’ve been waiting with this for about 3 hours, seeing if anything else comes up, any questions or doubts that aren’t burned through or seen through when they come up against this. But it’s just hands on the keyboard, waiting, and sensations passing. Now the only problem seems to be that I don’t know what do next or how to do it (and it’s really no problem at all!). Thank you!
••J

Dear Jackson,

As a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB, who have also seen through the ‘self’. Actually, there are several groups to join.

So here are the questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Vivien

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate, self-existent entity that can be called ‘self’ ‘me’ or ‘I’. In fact, no such thing as ’separate entities’ exist at all, only mental labels which create the illusion of distinct objects or entities . This applies to EVERYTHING, not just concepts of self. There is just one great big happening, out of which the thinking mind automatically (no control) extracts what it calls ‘distinct objects’ or ‘states of existence’. These in fact do not, and have not ever, existed as something separate and distinct from the whole of reality. No concept, including my or anyone else’s concept of self, has any separate existence now or ever.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is an illusion that works like all other beliefs, frameworks and mental objects. We give the “self” very special status, but it really doesn’t have its own special category apart from any other mental formation. “Self” is a thought that either clings to or rejects other ideas and actions. Ideas and actions (and everything else) are just happening of course, but the idea of “I” follows in the wake of action saying “that thought is mine” or “that wasn’t my fault” or some other type of ownership claim. It really quite thin and silly when you get down to it. It is basically a thought that either says “this fits with my concept of myself” or “this doesn’t fits with my concept of self,” and over years and years those internal divisions of reality into “me” and “not me” create what we call an identity, a personality, a “me”. entirely created from false divisions and entirely unreal. That is both where it starts and how it works.

However, all the above is only my minds ‘educated guess’ on how all this works (in other words totally false). It might be useful to explain it this way to another “self”. But from my current internal perspective, it would be more accurate to simply say that self is an illusion which once arose and is now gone. “I” can’t really ‘know’ anything about anything, including what this illusion (or any other) really is/was, how it works/worked, or why it might have gone away. In reality there are no answers, just an end to questioning. Now just delete everything but that last sentence and it’s a much more true answer.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Well, it doesn’t really feel like anything in the traditional sense, as there is no entity “I” to which feelings can happen. But here we go anyway. The body seems lighter and carries less internal tension on average than a few days ago. Not that sensations or feeling arising have changed in any way, but the ‘story’ about them (which names, extends and powers them) and the individuation of them (this is anger, this is happiness, etc) is gone. Thoughts and thoughts about thoughts still arise, but again, on average, the train of thinking is shorter and the thoughts are not believed to be ‘thoughts’. Throughout everything there is a sense of the unreality of placing sensations, thoughts, feelings, or anything else into categories (even the categories ‘sensations’ ‘thoughts’ and ‘feelings’ are silly, but I have to use something here). Well it’s just very hard to explain, and quite accurate to say “nothing has changed, everything is different.” You almost have to be poetic about it to make any sense in English, like saying its like I always thought I was running down a trail full of obstacles and putting great effort into avoiding them, when in fact i was actually floating down a river and kept grabbing onto rocks on purpose to maintain the illusion that the flow of the river was up to me. Well once I stopped grabbing, I saw that “I” was only and entirely that grabbing, not anything else or anything real. Then all there is is the movement itself, nothing to move it or to be moved.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The direct perception exercise of “look at Concept X that you have, does it have any reality in the immediate experience of the 5 senses, can it ever have any reality?” was really helpful to me, burned very quickly through a lot that was still in the way. I was already really close when we started this dialogue, there weren’t many more veils to lift. Of course, self has always been an illusion (and in a very paradoxical way, I always knew that) what I needed most (and got at LU) was more like becoming OK with not knowing, and with not replacing old beliefs with newer, shinier, more ‘spiritual’ beliefs. As soon as I realized “hey, it’s ok to drop this and accept that nothing might replace it” that was a huge step. We are so wired to believe something or to believe it’s opposite, that the idea of truly being ok with NOT HAVING A CLUE is something our brain can’t even process. But the only true answer to ANY question in this world is “I don’t know and I can’t ever know because there is no ‘me’ and therefore no ‘knowing’” Seeing that is was ok for things to be like that (while the thinking mind was screaming “no! it can’t be like that, it’s too weird and scary to be true!) was a big step.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No, no, no and no. I’m not controlling how I answer this question even, the mind is just doing it’s thing, much more like being pulled than like having to push. Of course, I only ever imagined I was ‘pushing’ or that ‘pushing’ was a thing that could happen, or that there was some special separate thing that could ‘push’. Nothing can be “made” to happen, that just seems silly now! For an example, I always thought (aka assumed and never questioned) that activities like walking or driving were more under my control than say, digestion of food. While it is true those things take a level of conscious activity, each aspect of that conscious activity is just as automatic, just as self-less, and a heart beating. There is no “I” that co-ordinates the hands, feet, arms and eyes for driving, just imagine if you have to think about and “decide” every little movement that makes up driving or walking, impossible! More subtly, there is no choice or decision in having thoughts like “better turn here” or “watch out for that bicycle” these thoughts are no more under control than any others.

I cannot choose my likes or dislikes, my actions or lack or actions, or anything else. I cannot ‘try’ to be a better person or a more enlightened person or any kind of person at all! Thats the freedom of it all, and what’s so brilliant about LU, is that the “I” is the cornerstone to so so much that is untrue. Remove the “I” and an entire version of reality (the kind that involves “me” “doing” actions) disappears. The language already has it right actually, in saying we “have” thoughts (passive, no control, simple arising without an “I”), instead of we “do” thoughts (active with a responsible entity “I”).

6) Anything to add?

Everything above is total crap, I don’t believe a word of it and neither should anyone else. :)

Also, Vivien you are awesome. Guides, you are awesome. LU forum, you are awesome. Thanks for everything “you” “do” and much love!!
••J

Dear Jackson,

Thank you for answering the questions.
I will now pass our dialogue for other guides to read.
There may be more questions to follow.
I will write again shortly.

Love, Vivien