Back for round 2. Any guides to close the case please?

[arora]

Hi
I had interaction over a few months with a wonderful guide previously on this forum, about a year ago. It tapered off gradually, and now I feel I would like to give it another go playing with this- my understanding might have matured a bit since last time :)
Thank you so much
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep,

I could be willing to help you, though I should first remind you of a couple of things:

1. This is not really something to 'play with'. It requires total commitment and willingness for Life to take this wherever it takes it. Are you truly up for that or not?

2. A 'matured understanding' is not enough: the willingness to LOOK honestly is really all that is needed (sounds simple doesn't it!)

Please let me know whether you are THIS serious about it, in which case we can look into this together.

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark
Thank you so much for your reply, it's an honour.

Firstly, I am willing to bring in as much honesty as I can. Words 'playing with' probably more indicate my perspective or understanding that too much of mind is not likely to get me anywhere, or in other words I try to bring a bit of lightness to this exploration so it doesn't become too heady. Of course, please correct me if your approach doesn't match my perspective and I'd be willing to work on it.

Secondly, it seems like its important to understand 'how to look' and I am certainly open to learning your meaning and your way of 'looking'
So thank you again and let's please start this exploration, when you can.

Regards

Sandeep

[ElPortal]

That's great, Sandeep.

So, welcome back to LU. First could you read and agree to the following:

1. Post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:- viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too - http://www.liberationunleashed.com Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

In which case, please start by answering the following:-

A) Tell me as much as you can about your journey so far, letting me know what are your expectations for liberation. What do you expect to change, and what do you expect not to change.

B) What comes up when it is read that there is no “you” at all in reality, not in any shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be? There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "you".

Spend time pondering each question carefully, always looking at the present immediate experience - rather than intellectual thoughts and reasoning - before answering.

Also it would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark
Read and agreed to above, Will keep reading again to remind myself, especially -

felt senses and observed thoughts

So, excited and thankful for you to be my guide.

Answering your questions-

A) Tell me as much as you can about your journey so far, letting me know what are your expectations for liberation. What do you expect to change, and what do you expect not to change.

I have been interested in spirituality as a hobby for a while- Starting with listening to Eckhart Tolle a few years ago, a semi-regular buddhist style breath watching meditation for a little while. All this leading to discovering and been taken by non-duality about 3 years ago. I have since read quite a few books and watched lots of internet inspired by batgap.com.
More recently and notably, I have been particularly influenced by books by Joan Tollifson, John Wheeler and James Braha, all of which have a similar theme of pointing.

Expectations from liberation- I have learnt to not expect fireworks, however there is still expectation of perhaps relating better to others and more peace in everyday life. I have again learnt not to expect too much change except reducing mental suffering and more peace.

B) What comes up when it is read that there is no “you” at all in reality, not in any shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be? There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "you".

my first response was 'yes i have heard it all before'. But stopping a bit and reading again - there is perhaps some challenge to the statement that arises, thoughts similar to 'okay then prove it to me' or 'is this a loss in some way?'
There may also be bit of sadness/feeling of loss.
( I must add Mark, that my struggle is to distinguish between logical answers and immediate feelings for any answer, so I am usually not absolutely sure of what I am feeling)

I am in Melbourne, Australia (GMT + 10) but I will always attempt to post within 24 hours of a reply.

Regards

Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for that.

Expectations from liberation- I have learnt to not expect fireworks, however there is still expectation of perhaps relating better to others and more peace in everyday life. I have again learnt not to expect too much change except reducing mental suffering and more peace.

Yes, some famous teachers seem to suggest or offer various benefits. But really who can know what Life will do! It seems that it can do whatever it likes. And what if none of those 'perks' are even on offer? What if it is just 'the truth at any cost'? Still up for giving up the fight against Life just as it is?

my first response was 'yes i have heard it all before'. But stopping a bit and reading again - there is perhaps some challenge to the statement that arises, thoughts similar to 'okay then prove it to me' or 'is this a loss in some way?'
There may also be bit of sadness/feeling of loss.
( I must add Mark, that my struggle is to distinguish between logical answers and immediate feelings for any answer, so I am usually not absolutely sure of what I am feeling)

Thanks for this honesty.

'okay then prove it to me'

As you know, no-one is here to prove anything to anyone, or to persuade anyone of anything. In fact the 'dual' perspective on Life is fine. It works for many people. But if something there is starting to see it as an illusion, investigating this matter further starts to happen and that can't really be stopped, can it?

'is this a loss in some way?'

Bad news: you bet it's a loss! Better get over this, and face whatever pain arises. But a loss for whom?
Good news: It turns out that it's the loss of something that was never there in the first place: an illusion, a belief.

my struggle is to distinguish between logical answers and immediate feelings for any answer, so I am usually not absolutely sure of what I am feeling

This is the 'mind's struggle to keep hold of an illusion, so to overlook the obvious, direct experience which is always right there under the nose. Don't worry, spend time with whatever is brought up in questioning, and don't answer straight away. Instead stay with it for a while. Mind answers often spring straight in to fill the gap. Instead allow the gap and see what comes up. Pretty much whenever an intellectual answer springs up, this will be challenged and you will be sent back to look at the actual first hand experience.

First question: Where is I experienced, right now? Describe in as much detail as you can.

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

Still processing this, will reply in detail soon.

Regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Processing with the attention, rather than with the mind, I hope....
Look forward to hearing from you.

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark

Processing with the attention, rather than with the mind, I hope....

:) it's good to be reminded.

And what if none of those 'perks' are even on offer? What if it is just 'the truth at any cost'? Still up for giving up the fight against Life just as it is?

I certainly am up for it

First question: Where is I experienced, right now? Describe in as much detail as you can.

Trying not to refer to what I have read on the matter, however it is an interesting question - 'where' rather than 'who or what' ..
It feels like I am in the body..in the head mostly, or may be in the chest. It is almost evasive..but mostly head. Certainly feels like within the body though.
When I look, I can not pin point, sit blankly for a few seconds and then flood of thoughts come in after a little while. When I manage to get back to looking, same process repeats.
That's as far as it went today.
Happy to get your thoughts or can try to look again soon and report back.
Many thanks and regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for that. Yes, honest looking is best. I enjoyed the frankness and immediacy of your response: just what is needed.

Trying not to refer to what I have read on the matter

Good move! A second-hand investigation can only get second-hand results, can't it? So let's keep it to first-hand looking. If someone else's idea crops up, just identify it as that (to me) and then look beyond to what feels real there.

Can you pinpoint what is the feeling/bodily sensation in the head? What is the feeling/bodily sensation in the chest? Spend time with these. Try to describe.

Then consider, where is the awareness (for want of a better word) of these? Does this have a location? Do the sensations seem to occur within this 'awareness', or is it occurring within them?

What tells you (if anything) that the sensations, or the awareness, are Sandeep?

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark

Can you pinpoint what is the feeling/bodily sensation in the head? What is the feeling/bodily sensation in the chest? Spend time with these. Try to describe.

Firstly,without looking it is almost an imagined picture of the face, inside the head, believed to be there all the time. When I look it is like a denseness in the head..which, when I kept trying to figure it out, dissipated. (immediately the image i formed of it was like a ball of gas was dissipated)
In the chest area, (it may be more like I am feeling this, not I am this) it's simply a denseness or just 'filled space' like jelly kind of sensation.

Then consider, where is the awareness (for want of a better word) of these? Does this have a location? Do the sensations seem to occur within this 'awareness', or is it occurring within them?

I find easier to answer 2nd part of this first- Definitely awareness or knowing of these sensations is not within them. It feels external to these. Regarding location, it is very hard to not consider knowing is not in the head. That would probably come the closest, but I must say it is very obscure. Because the image I sometimes am getting is that knowing is surrounding any particular sensation.

What tells you (if anything) that the sensations, or the awareness, are Sandeep?

Hmm...I may need to process this one a bit more, please

Many thanks & Regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

HI Sandeep,

Thanks for those responses. I will wait until you have had chance to consider that last question, before we go further. Please let me know when you have something on that.

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

hello Mark

What tells you (if anything) that the sensations, or the awareness, are Sandeep?

I have to give 2 answers to this-
When I look, nothing tells me these sensations or the awareness is Sandeep.
When I am not looking and I am in automatic mode in routine activities, logically, I have to say it is a belief that this looker is Sandeep.

I must add, this question has stumped me a bit, can not really find an answer that hits me as a solid answer.
Would love to get your thoughts

Many thanks and regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for both posts. The honesty and earnestness are promising, so far.

One thing, as we go along, that I must ask you to do honestly: if ever a pang (or fear, or resistance) occurs physically as you read or consider anything that is written in my posts, I would like you to follow these steps: 1. Notice it's label (the apparent story attached to it, or it's apparent raison d'être) 2. Then its physical sensation (apparent location, shape, feeling, movement, quality within the body). 3. Instead of pushing it away (a natural reaction) welcome it with curiosity and affection, as if it were a little child come for attention. 4. Even ask it whether it has something else to show you and take note of that. 5. Let it stay as long as it likes, and then notice it move on when it is ready. Then please report it to me honestly.

1. So now, reading through your responses about 'where I is experienced', something seems to be responding, for something over here seems to be able to read the responses! But whatever it is that is standing for 'I' seems to be elusive: sensations in the body, maybe in the head or the chest, maybe. Thoughts flood in to offer explanations. Is this correct?

By the way, in sleep, in dreaming for example, where does that sense of 'I' seem to be located in first-hand experience (NOT from reading or theory or second hand info)?

As further responses are read, the sensations associated with this 'I' seem to be an imagined picture of Sandeep's face, a denseness in the head, which is believed to be there all the time. In the chest, another sensation. So there are sensations and there are some beliefs. But is there any direct experience of any Sandeep there, or just these sensations?

Then, looking at the 'awareness' of these sensations, it seems not to be contained within the sensations. When looking into whether the sensations or awareness are actually 'Sandeep', only automated thinking patterns (or logic) bring up a Sandeep. Nothing else points to a Sandeep. Is that correct? (Please correct me if you feel I have mis represented what you wrote anywhere, or mis-summarised).

So as far as this investigation goes, so far, Sandeep only exists in a thought response, is that right?

(Don't worry, we will probably find him conclusively some other way.)

I must add, this question has stumped me a bit, can not really find an answer that hits me as a solid answer.
Would love to get your thoughts

What do YOU feel about this?

2. (A notebook and pen may well help you in some of the exercises we do).

Next, I would like you to spend a few moments calmly. Then slowly get up out of your chair, walk a few paces across the room, counting them, then return to the chair and sit down again slowly.

Now consider carefully. There were bodily actions, there were responses to my invitation. Look deeply into the mental and bodily actions, the responses, the control of the body, how many paces were taken. Describe all the stages. Now, can you find a Sandeep who did all, or any of this? If so, where is he found? Does thought come and try to claim a Sandeep?

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark
I intend to spend a bit more time on this and reply back within 24 hours.
Regards
Sandeep