Be grateful for help making this last jump

[Murray]

Sitting here I find this quite hard to write. For immediately what is coming up is who is writing? And I want to talk honestly about my experience, but again from what experience can I talk of other than what seemingly spontaneously seems to occur here? So I just spent a week away on retreat meditating and I went to a very deep place. I kept being with whatever arose and then attempting to see the seer. In places there was and is just simple knowing. It is so simple, it is so easy. When I listened silently to others in places my vision would go and there is no separation. But now this memory is the projection. I keep undermining myself which is becoming tiring.

I would be grateful for an experienced guide who's insight can aid me in letting go from all that is preventing the joy of empty filling this space.

[stu]

Hi Murray,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Stuart, and I'm happy to guide you. But I just want to make clear first of all that this process is not a route to recreating a past experience or state. Are you ok with that?

Cheers
Stuart

[Xain]

Hello Murray

I would be grateful for an experienced guide who's insight can aid me in letting go from all that is preventing the joy of empty filling this space.

Hi - I am Xain (pronounced like Zane). I would be glad to guide you.
Let us look deeper into some of the things you said in your first post . . .

For immediately what is coming up is who is writing?

The question presumes there IS a who.
The writing is happening - Sure - But can any form of 'who', separate self or 'thing' be found that is doing it?

And I want to talk honestly about my experience, but again from what experience can I talk of other than what seemingly spontaneously seems to occur here?

No special language is needed - I will understand what you mean.
This will not assume there is a 'you' there - Simply that standard language is needed and can be used in our discussion.

When I listened silently to others in places my vision would go and there is no separation.

Could you tell me a little more about this.
How is 'no separation' known?

But now this memory is the projection. I keep undermining myself which is becoming tiring.

Memory . . . meaning a thought about the past appears? A thought about an experience that is wanted again?
When you say 'undermining myself', what do you mean? How does this occur?

Xain ♥

[Murray]

Thank you. In many ways I do see through the illusion. That there this is is awareness and all experience is passing through the present. This sense of I is observed. There is still mental activity going on but my almost expectance is that the bud is opening and what I am observing is the process of former conceptual processes unraveling.
What keeps cropping up that troubles me slightly is what I in the view point of non-duality (this being it), what and how I develop in this construction of the present. Such possibility in absolute surrender. I want it, but that also almost feels like the block to just being really happy all the time. Is it wrong to want that?

I know there there is no separation from a vast collection of experiences where the inner and outer world have a direct influence on each other and therefore must be one entity. Like when you open a book and it says your thought exactly, and other such moments of alignment. It's like, I get it - now how do I keep this steady and bring the knowledge that all is perfect, always was always will be, down to the earth.

Are either of you familiar with the 'secret if the golden flower' book? I keep making more sense of my being in terms of chakras. But it's discerning what is projection and what is naturally arising I am working through. Whilst also part of me is saying, don't worry about it - you can't go wrong.

And no, I am not looking to recreate past experiences. Just to completely open up everything to all new ones beyond imagination.

[stu]

Hi Murray

Xain has kindly bowed out. So I will be your guide. It was an accident of simultaneous posting that got you two guides initially.

Even though the conversation has already started, I still think it would be helpful to provide a framework for it. Could you please confirm that you’re ok with these guidelines:

1. Please post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. In general, I will ask questions for you to respond to.
3. Respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond from direct experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers, which will probably hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. You might like to learn to use the quote function; it can be useful when referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
7. You might like to ensure that you have subscribed to this forum thread, by clicking on the small ‘subscribe topic’ link at the bottom of this page. Then you will automatically get an email as soon as I make a post.

Please also confirm that you have read the disclaimer here:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

I confirm that I’ll post within 1 day each time.

No, I don’t know the ‘secret of the golden flower’ book. But I know what chakras are.

Ok, now let’s proceed.
It sounds like you are already part-way along this journey, and that you have a strong desire to continue, which is great! I have 2 questions:

1) What are you expecting no-self to be like? Do you expect to be happy all the time?

2) When you say “This sense of I is observed”, who is doing the observing? Take a look now and answer from direct experience.

Cheers
Stuart

[stu]

Hi Murray

Sorry, the link to the quote instructions didn't paste fully. Here it is:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Cheers
Stuart

[Murray]

I agree to all of that, thank you.

There is no observer that any amount of looking is able to find. What there is is emptiness. A timeless void that is filled with this that is, which sometimes happens to contain a being or self. That void can seem scary - but it can only scare a self, for it is never really empty, for here this is.

In full unself I don't expect to be happy all the time. I don't expect to expect or to seek happiness. Rather for there to be a sense of comfort security and stability just with acceptance that a truer desire (not my desires) is being expressed unchallenged and undirected as the present experience.

There is a great creative energy, I just want to get out of it's way. Give it all my blessings and let it shine.

[stu]

Hi Murray

It’s great that you don’t have expectations about happiness. Different people start this journey from such different places that it is difficult to make any predictions about how it would feel afterwards. Expectations mostly just get in the way.

When the timeless void happens to contain a self, what is that self like? Can you describe it in detail please?

Just to be clear, I’m asking you to take a look now and then (ideally) make notes straight afterwards, which describe your direct experience.

That creative energy sounds good!

Cheers
Stuart

[Murray]

I can float by quite content with the wisdom of being. But then when sometimes a tightness arrises particularly around the belly and right now the heart then it's like there is something that wants to take responsibility. And here I feel slightly considered, that part of me knows that really words are not necessary. This is just consciences way of working itself out in to recognising the effortlessness of it all.
I want to just out and say what I kind of know to be true. That this is it. That this experience that I am having here that is now is it. There is nothing else. Then the self appears, scared it feels responsible - although I must then dream up my own happiness, my own release from myself. And I don't want the responsibility for the world. It is trying to make sense of other people, you there reading this. I feel like I'm blabbing now, but who feels that? There is no one. But this is. And I want to just keep undermining the self again and again. But also that becomes exhausting and almost unhealthy for I also just want to love myself. Love me as this. Stop undermining my sense of self and love this being so that I can grow. But grow quiet. This dialog is unnecessary. But clearly there is still a sense that there is something to reach, a better place and that is what I need to let go.
I feel so close, I have opened so so much in such a little space of time, it is early spring, be patient I want to say. Trust trust trust.

[stu]

Hi Murray

If I have understood you correctly, you are saying that your experience of a self was (and perhaps is) connected to a feeling of tightness in the stomach and heart, and a sense of responsibility (which is unwanted and a bit scary). Much of the rest of your reply looks like you are grappling with the idea of no self and feeling confused. If you treat no-self as an idea and try to understand it intellectually, it is likely that you won’t make real progress, because of the contradictions that arise. But looking at your reply, I guess you have just found that out for yourself!

So, let’s dig a bit deeper. When you experience sensations in your body (such as tightness, or anything else for that matter), does that reinforce a sense of self? This probably easier to look at using a neutral stimulus rather than one that evokes emotions. So try this exercise: Close your eyes and rub your hand on your leg. Describe in full your direct experience of that. As part of that description, please tell me whether there anything that you can identify in that experience as belonging to Murray… does it have a Murray quality in any way?

Looking forward to your reply.

Cheers
Stuart

[Murray]

When you say Murray there there is a sense of warming. That there is recognition that I am not Murray, but there is an interest in Murray. In the past when I have pushed myself to the extremes of just staring at the present and trying to do nothing until a point of almost not being here something kicks in, a sense that this life that is being lived wants to be live. Murray wants to be here. Stop struggling.
Closing my eyes and rubbing my legs just here just now there is a peaceful reminder of something that doesn't need words. The belly sensation is about becoming steady, learning to be still with that peace. The heart sensation is about me wanting to connect with other people. This feels important and is where most harsh thoughts can arise. There is an urge to share this experience. To look in to someone else's knowing eyes - to be silently selfless together. That's the biggest paradox to be let go of. I have really experienced selflessness alone, yet there is an 'I' that wants to be 'I'less with other people without their own I. I want us all to be selfless together. Yeah I want to help others be selfless - and it's funny because I see the silliness in that sentence. But it also arises a slight sorrow - because there is a truth there.

[stu]

Hi Murray

I think you have misunderstood me. I do not want you to tell me what arises when you think ‘Murray’. What I want is for you to tell me about the experience of rubbing your leg and whether there is a sense of Murray (or self or ‘I’) within that experience. Note that I used the words “…in that experience…” in my previous post.

You said “Closing my eyes and rubbing my legs just here just now there is a peaceful reminder of something that doesn't need words.” Well, words ARE needed here, otherwise you and I cannot communicate!

My job is to guide you, and to direct your attention to things that are helpful, and to direct your attention away from things that are unhelpful in realizing no-self. So please don’t babble about things that aren’t a reply to my questions, because that can become a distraction. Keep focused.

So, I repeat: Please describe what arises in your direct experience when you rub your leg. What happens (if anything) in the 5 senses and in thoughts? Is there a sense of self in that experience? If so, where? Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

Cheers
Stuart

[stu]

Hi Murray

Are you still there?
Hope you're ok.

Cheers
Stuart

[Murray]

Thank you. I need that slap sometime.

Ok so sense of a body. The shape of my legs as I sit here in this room I am still aware of. Although I don't see anything with my eyes closed there is still an image of my body being here as I sense the ground and chair beneath me, I sense the back of my neck feels a little tight.I am aware of the change in sound and feeling of friction on my thighs as the direction of my hands changes from going forward and backward. There are half thoughts incomplete trying to think about what to look for. Incomplete in the sense that it's although they begin and then realise half way through that they are pointless and give up only to be followed up by another half though.

[stu]

Hi Murray

He, he. You’re welcome. A tap with the zen stick is sometimes needed.

That is a nice and clear description of your direct experience. Thank you. That technique of looking (‘Direct Looking’) is very useful in this process, so I’m glad you’ve got it sussed.

It is interesting that you found that thoughts were pointless in that experience. Why did you say pointless?

Although I don't see anything with my eyes closed there is still an image of my body being here as I sense the ground and chair beneath me, I sense the back of my neck feels a little tight.

Where is the image of your body with your eyes closed? Is it in your imagination (thoughts)? Where does the quality of ownership reside? In other words, where is the ‘I’ or ‘my’ in the experience of your body, when you use Direct Looking?

Looking forward to your reply
Stuart