The Gate

Hello. I've been reading a lot of the material here for a couple of weeks now. Amazing work being done here. I'm hoping too for some sort of breakthrough of certainty.
I know that there is no one here, or anywhere, "doing" anything - or rather, probably I believe it, since it seems to come and go. Not infrequently the knowing of this brings a great sense of lightness; and every time this truth is remembered - laughter, recognition. But can this just be about remembering...? Surely not.
Moments of uncaused joy in this life from time to time, ease of being.
Then extended times of not seeing it. Stuck in the character, the thought story, quick anger at small silly things which don't go "my" way.

In spite of being unable to find "I" as anything other than a thought, there is always a sense that I AM. Existence, here, now. This sense is of course wholly subjective and there is nothing outside of it with which to see it objectively AS what I am. Impossible. I see this, in fact the realisation of it some years ago had me laughing quietly for days. The eye can't see the eye. What is sought is what is seeking. Of course!

I have probably read far too much on the subject for far too long. Decades. Bogged down for years with practices, disciplines, meditation - all a bit slapdash if I'm honest. Plenty of doubt - how can it be possible that the truth is hidden, let alone requires all this ludicrous man-made contorting and posturing to get to? Like wading through endless mud in thick fog on the strength of a promise of sunlit pastures just a little farther on. Hah!
If truth exists, THIS must be it. How could it not be - since here it is! The problem MUST be with perception of this.

Then meeting Tony Parsons, of whom I had never heard previously, had a real impact. I knew he was onto something. Instinctively I knew I was recognising something true. Then down the advaita rabbit hole I went, Leo Hartong, Sailor Bob, John Wheeler, dozens more.
Then along came Jed McKenna. Wonderful. So refreshing. Such a ring of truth. Such a relief.

So close it hurts. But never the cigar. Give it all up. What's the bloody point.
But of course it wont give up its victims, the search, the seeking monster.

I'm tired of it.
I also now fear that true seeing of no self, with no doubts, is just not on the cards for this one.

I no longer know anything except I exist. Whatever "I" might be - this certainty of being, AM-ness, is undeniable. I'd have to exist to deny I exist! It does seem that whatever I am, or whatever is appearing as me, consciousness, awareness, being, can only ever be an absolute mystery. Nothing outside of it to "find" it.
I mean, I'm laughing now, knowing this must be true.

But there's still a sense of separation. Plainly there's confusion here, lack of clarity..

Any chance of a good shake from someone who can see the problem here..?

Thanks in anticipation. Bit of a rant, I know...

Boy, your story is so familiar, it could have been mine. i even went to several meetings with Sailor Bob and John Wheeler (was visiting from the States) Just got frustrated with them.

There are some formalities to acknowledge but i won't bother with them unless they are called for.

From your wonderful rant, i can tell that you have 'hit the spot' several times without recognizing that you have.
The problem is that we (humans) are conditioned to certain ways of being. Language keeps us in a subject/object way of relating. Cultural norms worship the mind and thought abilities.

I'm hoping too for some sort of breakthrough of certainty.

Seems like a reasonable "hope". If we examine it a bit further, are you looking for a 'feeling' of certainty. An experience ?
Are you looking to never have doubt thoughts ?
Given the nature of the human animal, how reasonable are these 'requests' ?

Here (at LU) the emphasis is on the portal of the Self being nothing but a thought construct. (which i see that you have an intellectual handle on)
The portal that actually 'triggered' vince 'through the gate' was This IS IT !

If truth exists, THIS must be it.

i'll break this down into two parts. The first can be dealt with here; http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/search?q=truth
The second is the big bit. To say "THIS must be it." has the words "must be", implying that it is a deduction. A mental conclusion. This is where language can sabotage us, because "truth" and "must be" pedantically distract us from what you may have really meant.
When we say "THIS", what are you meaning ?

Oh, and tell what is Real(ity) ?

love

vince

Hi Vince, and thank you for your reply. I read your blog piece and will read it again. It was challenging, you are more rigorous than me I think..

"are you looking for a 'feeling' of certainty. An experience ?
Are you looking to never have doubt thoughts ?
Given the nature of the human animal, how reasonable are these 'requests' ?"

Hmm. Yes, a feeling, a knowing, of certainty. As I write the words here I see I don't really know precisely what they mean. It's a bit wooly isn't it..
Never to have doubt thoughts would be good. But the thought machine I suppose will continue to give rise to thoughts forever. I seem to imagine a time when I can take them or leave them. Not get caught up in them.
(There's "I" again. There is a hope here that when the absence of "I" is clearly established, then thoughts wont have any power to cause anxiety, fear etc. "Established?" What do I mean..?)

"If truth exists, THIS must be it."
Yes, based on deduction, but also on plain incontrovertible evidence. Here it is! I don't know how to even try to say what THIS is. Reality. It's what is, consciousness, the cosmos, existence, suchness, being. It's the simple knowing that I AM. I know that "I" is a thought and not an entity, so I say instead, THIS must be what I AM. This seems undeniably so. So why is there dissatisfaction?
Because, of course, "I" don't feel like "all of it". How could that be possible?

I feel pretty dim, finding there is truth, seeing it must be so because there is no other alternative, but it doesn't change anything!
I've read a hundred times - "Nothing Changes" when this is seen.
I feel I'm being deeply dishonest somehow but I don't know how.

The belief in "I" is so solidly rooted. All this stuff I think I know is just part of the same trick!

I see this is a confused mess now I read it, and am tempted to start again and spend the day on re-writing. But I don't want to contrive anything. You'd see through it anyway.
I'm aware too of the long time lag - I'm in UK - and want to keep it rolling.
Phew.

I really do appreciate your taking the time to help me through this tangle, if you can stand it....

Vince, having previously read only the first section of your blog page, I am now working my way through the rest.
I'm seeing I haven't been going nearly deeply enough or rigorously enough at this enquiry. And looking in all the wrong places.
Knuckling down and trying harder now.
Thanks again

I really do appreciate your taking the time to help me through this tangle, if you can stand it....

Ok, i know what you are saying, ..but to be pedantic, vince is doing this because conditions aligned that resulted in it happening. No choice. No decisions. There were some words on the screen and an emotional response to them, and here we are. As far as "standing it", there are no expectations about outcomes (there is a story that may or may not come 'true'). There is enjoyment from your 'style', so don't imagine any drudgery (another story)

i will now go down to your post and highlight the next thing to 'discuss' and click on the Quote button at top right of your post and it will put it in quote tabs in this reply post so that when it is submitted it will be colored...

I seem to imagine a time when I can take them or leave them. Not get caught up in them.

Yes. This is the way it happens here. There is a brain re-wiring that occurs, which eventually has those thoughts that are inane, happen infrequently. When they do and are seen there is humor.
Let's establish something first. When i asked you;

Oh, and tell what is Real(ity) ?

You didn't answer it. Please answer everyquestion.
Let me ask it in another way. For the organism using the label 'seeming', is there, can there be, anything that is Real, other than current experiencing ? ..or to juxtapose that, can there be anything other than current experiencing, that is not concept ? Not thoughts ABOUT it ?

Ok, where do thoughts come from ?
Do you have any control over which thoughts arise ?

then thoughts wont have any power to cause anxiety, fear etc

How do thoughts have "power" ?

Not get caught up in them.

How does this work ? How do you get "caught up in them" ?

Here it is! I don't know how to even try to say what THIS is. Reality.

Is it possible that "THIS" is current experiencing ?

It's what is, consciousness, the cosmos, existence, suchness, being.

Can these be anything other than thought stuff ? Labels ?

It's the simple knowing that I AM. I know that "I" is a thought and not an entity, so I say instead, THIS must be what I AM. This seems undeniably so. So why is there dissatisfaction?

Because this "knowing" is not Knowing. It is just more story.

Because, of course, "I" don't feel like "all of it".

Of course. How could you feel different when you are responding to the old conditioning. Have a look at this video on brain re-wiring; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4 and this one on how the sense of self can be manipulated; https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5l95ekxxmaog ... lusion.mp4

I've read a hundred times - "Nothing Changes" when this is seen.

i would say that a more accurate saying is "Nothing changes, but everything is different." ..anyway, don't worry about this just yet. You will know when it happens.

I feel I'm being deeply dishonest somehow but I don't know how.

Yeah. Is it that there is a denial of what is true ?

and am tempted to start again and spend the day on re-writing. But I don't want to contrive anything.

Good. Don't rewrite. Ranting is better.

love

vince

Knuckling down and trying harder now.

No, don't "try harder". That would just distract us from SEEing that thoughts can't do anything. So who/what would "try harder" ?

vince

is there, can there be, anything that is Real, other than current experiencing ? ..or to juxtapose that, can there be anything other than current experiencing, that is not concept ? Not thoughts ABOUT it

Yes, current experiencing is all that can be called real. I sat with this for quite a while, and noticed how it is resisted. Thought constantly pushing in to label and fill out, extend experience with assumptions, fuzzy impressive sounding ideas picked up years ago, undigested, swallowed, incorporated. Current experience isn't a thought, although it might include thoughts.

where do thoughts come from ?
Do you have any control over which thoughts arise ?

I don't know where thoughts come from. They appear apparently from nowhere. I could say they arise from the unconscious mind but this seems no more meaningful than that they come from nowhere. The unconscious mind is a concept. It could be speculated that complex chains of cause & effect determine the content of thoughts, but experience here is that thoughts come and go pretty much all the time, from whence I know not. I have no control over this nor any clue what's coming next.

How do thoughts have "power" ?

It seems that some thoughts, or rather their content - painful memory, anticipation of future, can.... hmm.... it's "I" again isn't it. So fear / anxiety arise when one thought refers to another thought - the "I" thought - and an imaginary scenario is played out in the thought story. And when a painful memory arises, it gives rise to an accompanying felt emotion if the "I" story comes into play, which of course it always does, since that is what the memory refers to.
I'm not too clear on this.

How does this work ? How do you get "caught up in them" ?

So the I that gets caught up in thoughts can only be another thought. A feedback loop.
I see that thoughts are real, but the content of thoughts is not. So thoughts are being experienced, but their content is not, except as a story about something that has no basis in reality here now.
But actual present experience might well be of the physical emotions arising in the story - much like the knot in my stomach right now as I grapple with this.

Is it possible that "THIS" is current experiencing ?

Yes. It is exactly so.

Can these be anything other than thought stuff ? Labels ?

No, they are just words. Learnt concepts. I am blind to my own conditioning, the deep, "sacrosanct" stuff... :-{

Because this "knowing" is not Knowing. It is just more story.

Yes now I begin to see there is no need at all for any sense of I in order for experiencing to occur. Experiencing does not imply experiencer. Wow. I've heard and said the words often enough but I just got a little flavour of the reality. It's only an inkling but it's very exciting.
The illusion is right down deep and all pervasive isn't it.
However is this going to be dislodged..!?

Yeah. Is it that there is a denial of what is true ?

Yes, so it seems. I always thought I could handle this (and everything) without help. I was so wrong.

Thanks for the vid links. Neuroscience is fascinating. Have you seen this - RuthlessTruthOneSong

Not quite figured out the URL function --

http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.co. ... -song.html

http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.co. ... -song.html

Great article. i hadn't seen it before.

Yes, current experiencing is all that can be called real. I sat with this for quite a while, and noticed how it is resisted.

Great. Good noticing & good that the noticing is of resistance. Resistance only occurs when the status quo is tested.

The unconscious mind is a concept. It could be speculated that complex chains of cause & effect determine the content of thoughts, but experience here is that thoughts come and go pretty much all the time, from whence I know not. I have no control over this nor any clue what's coming next.

Ha, very good. i knew i liked you.

I'm not too clear on this.

Well, i'm not too clear on what you're not too clear on. You spelt it out very clearly.

But actual present experience might well be of the physical emotions arising in the story - much like the knot in my stomach right now as I grapple with this.

Yes, but go one step further. The emotions come from believing the content of the story. Once the snake is seen to be a piece of rope the adrenalin rush fades. How does belief work ?

I am blind to my own conditioning, the deep, "sacrosanct" stuff...

Oh yes. Aren't we all. How do we stay blind to this stuff ? Once seen it becomes obvious, but somehow we never question it. How does this work ?

However is this going to be dislodged..!?

Yes, exciting. It only takes the light of SEEing it for it to collapse into dust. You've been polishing the mirror (obviously) but just haven't focussed on the right spot. (which, incidentally is closer than the nose on your face)

I always thought I could handle this (and everything) without help. I was so wrong.

You may well have 'got there' without help, but conditions aligned and here we are...


love

vince

The emotions come from believing the content of the story. Once the snake is seen to be a piece of rope the adrenalin rush fades. How does belief work ?

How do we stay blind to this stuff ? Once seen it becomes obvious, but somehow we never question it. How does this work ?

Beliefs are the basis of the whole idea of the self. There are layers and layers of them. I believe I am this individual, of this nationality, of this culture/religion, that certain things are right and others wrong, or good and bad, important or not etc etc. At bottom is the core belief that I exist separately in here and everything else exists out there. I might (later) simultaneously attempt to believe that this is in fact illusory and all is really one, which produces frustration & conflict. I might have deep seated early beliefs that I am unworthy of love or success (these concepts varying in quality/meaning according to yet more layers of belief) which undermine later beliefs that I am important/admirable. On it goes, bolstering & reinforcing the fundamental core belief in "I" as this suffering separate being who HAS all these beliefs.
Beliefs are entrenched thought patterns which endlessly repeat and cycle and refer to and depend on and even conflict with each other. A maelstrom of head noise with "me" at the centre. A story lost in a story about a story.
They determine how "I" perceive the world, filtering out anything which doesn't fit "my" stories of how I believe things are and ensuring that what is allowed through the filter confirms and reinforces my existing beliefs. And thereby of course ensuring that reality is not seen.

Streuth! No wonder seeing through this is a battle! The equipment is already sabotaged!

I had a dream once of dismantling a huge complex structure of scaffolding and gradually realising there was nothing underneath. All it was holding up was itself. Ring any bells....? :-)

You know, I have a sense that I did a bit of real, if minor, damage yesterday to the belief that "I" am involved in or necessary to current experience. All that stuff about "THIS must be what I AM" - I just wasn't seeing what I was dragging around with me.
I was about to say I kind of have to look for it to realise it again, but it's more about allowing it I'm seeing. Yeah - bloody hell - it's just a thought isn't it!
Laughter.
I very much appreciate the prod in the right direction Vince.

Subtle sense still of waiting for big POP....

Beliefs are the basis of the whole idea of the self.

Yes, they are the details of the story of Self. ..but i was really asking what makes a belief a belief. It's interesting that we can't experience a belief. We can act out the content of one, but the moment we recognize the container of that content (the belief) is ceases to be a belief. It may be reinstated as a belief, but while we examine it what is it ?
What are beliefs made from ?


They are thoughts of course, but thoughts with a special status. That status is that they are identified with. They have been given permission to be acted on without consideration. They don't need to surface (become conscious) before being taken as true or real. They are me, or I am them.
Now, consider this; You once believed in Santa.
When you stopped believing that he was real, what happened to that belief ?
Did it morph into a belief that he is not real ?
Does that belief still exist but with another belief that the first belief is wrong ? (that is that there are now two beliefs)
Did that belief cease to be a belief ? If this is the case, was it replaced with a new one that says "Santa is not real" ?
What about the case of say, Yeti or Bigfoot or Aliens. If you haven't been forced to take a stand and committed to either believing that they exist or believing that they don't exist, (to say "not believing" is a misnomer as that is a belief) you probably still behave AS IF they don't exist. (given that you most likely would be surprised to be confronted by one)
Can we know of those beliefs that are embedded ?
What does it take to discover the existence of a belief ?
Is examination of a belief sufficient to introduce the possibility that it will be 'dropped' ?

Streuth! No wonder seeing through this is a battle! The equipment is already sabotaged!

Maybe it's just that language and culture have given the left brain too much credibility. Maybe this process of enquiry is simply moving appropriate functions (back) over to the right hemisphere. (good story)

I had a dream once of dismantling a huge complex structure of scaffolding and gradually realising there was nothing underneath. All it was holding up was itself. Ring any bells....? :-)

What a great analogy for a Self.

Laughter.

Excellent. Very telling.

Subtle sense still of waiting for big POP....

That may or may not happen. (no big pop happened here) All experiencing is impermanent. (as is everything)

love

vince

Hi Vince

I'd just written this when your reply arrived.
I have to go to the workshop now but will respond to yours later.

Thoughts arising this morning -

That whole I AM THAT thing...
It has a powerful resonance because it feels "true" (go with me a minute). Instinctively recognised but not truly understood, it is grasped at, latched onto, and added to the existing swirl of mis- or half-understood concepts, another idea/belief which colours the search from then on. The seeker is not seeking truth so much as seeking verification of these ideas he has collected, liked the sound of, and believed to be true.
Many of these "great truths" have been and are uttered by teachers, gurus, masters in perfectly good faith, but to unready minds they can only be misunderstood. The filters - remember? It all has to fit what's already there..
And there's the seeking conundrum - the truth can only be heard when the truth is already known.
It's a removal of beliefs to see what is actually here, not a strengthening and verification of selected beliefs attractive to an existing belief - self - to bolster, confirm, and enhance its existence.

All that said - this tenacious "I" thought stream....
Well I didn't expect this to be cleared up overnight, but I noticed just now, sitting on the loo actually (irony not lost on me...) a familiar thought stream - imagined dialogue - how it'll be when I'm putting my poor misguided belief-saddled friends straight about all this self nonsense..... ! :-}
Oh dear. I'm trying to be honest.
This is noticed, then another thought stream about how this is the old " I'll show em how cool and wise and together I am" thing going on. Prompted presumably by a belief of inadequacy, failure, not being appreciated, etc etc....
The whole "how am I coming across" thing. The programming is visible, but the program still runs.

So here seems to be part of the hidden agenda about what I expect to happen. That all that nonsense will just stop, go away.
Now as I write it, it becomes absurd.

These thoughts come up from time to time. Then thoughts about how those thoughts are undesirable, then thoughts about how this character would be less of an arse if certain traits didn't exist, if the programming could just be adjusted.
Good grief.
I've fallen right into the trap I described above!

That all that nonsense will just stop, go away.
Now as I write it, it becomes absurd.

Ha yes. Isn't it WonderFull how clarity, wisdom seems to emerge without effort. You can see why it's referred to as SEEing.

looking forward to your response to my previous..

love

vince

Now, consider this; You once believed in Santa.
When you stopped believing that he was real, what happened to that belief ?
Did it morph into a belief that he is not real ?
Does that belief still exist but with another belief that the first belief is wrong ? (that is that there are now two beliefs)
Did that belief cease to be a belief ? If this is the case, was it replaced with a new one that says "Santa is not real" ?

There is no need to believe that Santa doesn't exist since it becomes clear that Santa is a made up story. A child soon sees through a story of an old man who makes all the toys and then delivers them to all the children in the world in one night in a sled pulled by flying reindeer. The Santa belief only exists in a very young mind until it is understood that the story is impossible in the "real" world.
There may be a stage of doubt, then disbelief, but when it is seen that there is no possibility of it being true, the belief is simply an amusing memory. No need to believe the first belief is wrong - it is known to be wrong. I don't have to believe Santa is not real; the reality of Santa doesn't even arise as a possibility. Santa has been disproved.

What about the case of say, Yeti or Bigfoot or Aliens. If you haven't been forced to take a stand and committed to either believing that they exist or believing that they don't exist, (to say "not believing" is a misnomer as that is a belief) you probably still behave AS IF they don't exist. (given that you most likely would be surprised to be confronted by one)

Yeti, Bigfoot or Aliens are in the eye of the beholder I'd say. Many people want to believe these things, so that's what they see whenever they see something they're not quite sure of. I'm open to the possibility of rarely seen bear species hiding out in the Himalayas or the deep wildernesses of the world, why not?
Aliens - as far as I can find, I neither believe nor disbelieve in aliens. It seems likely that there would be other occupied planets in an apparently infinite universe. Or is there just me? I can't know.
I don't believe people have been abducted by aliens although I believe that they believe they have.
Humans have always seemed to like the idea of something greater than them coming from the sky. Used to be gods & angels...

Can we know of those beliefs that are embedded ?

We only need to know of one - the core belief in self. All others are dependent on and refer to that.

What does it take to discover the existence of a belief ?

Our fears, habitual behaviours, inner dialogue, emotions, and what we resist are all clues to beliefs. We can attempt to uncover them, and there is a vast self help industry in place to assist us in uncovering/changing beliefs which affect us negatively. But again, it's the core belief in self which is the root of the whole structure.

Is examination of a belief sufficient to introduce the possibility that it will be 'dropped' ?

Yes. This forum is dedicated to undoing the big daddy of them all - the belief in self. This is the only belief which needs to be uncovered and seen through since all others depend upon it for survival. But it is solidly entrenched and mightily defended, and influencing/undermining the very processes attempting to dismantle it.
Real resistance is happening here. I sat with this for hours with a mind which refused to operate, blank, wouldn't even understand the questions. Tension, anxiety. It's like ego has twigged what's going on and doubled the guard.
I can sit here and pay attention to actual present experience, and yes, see that no "I" is actually present except as a thought, a real sense of WOW, It's True! that this is real experiential evidence. But it seems more in the way of a practice than a natural easy knowing which is always present. It's a new experience, and seems tenuous, constantly under threat.

There is a leaning away from thinking and towards JUST LOOKING.
Rough day yesterday, hardly slept the night before, worrying about this. Reminiscent of essay deadline pressure at Uni. Head banging.
I just wanted a break from it all. But there's no letting it go now, and I found myself re-reading the articles on this website instead of getting the early night I'd planned. Which led me to Delma's blog and beyond, but what was hitting me was the absolute insistence on literally JUST LOOKING!
Like the way you begin to distantly hear the voice of someone trying to wake you from very deep sleep.

SEEING the truth of this instead of trying to work it out and get a handle on it with the mind is the only way it's going to work. When you pointed out my "THIS must be what I AM" angle as just more story, and I actually glimpsed that actual current experience REALLY involves no "I" other than the thought - simply by looking - was the first time I had an inkling into how I'm constantly fooling myself by failing to see how assumptions and beliefs are so deeply, invisibly, entrenched. That looking is JUST looking.

Several moments today, just going about, driving, shopping, doing chores, noticing it's all just going on. The usual story of how I'm doing it all, I must do this, I better do that, still dominant of course, but, here and there, SEEN. No "me" is really here.

A split second flash of fear as I wrote that last bit...