The Gate

Hi,

Would love to be guided through the gate. Have read the disclaimer and explored the site/some LU material (also lots of other Buddhist and Advaita inquiry techniques.

Is any one available to guide me?

Am in Australia

Kathy

Hi,

Is it OK calling you Kathy?

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed (LU) and if you agree I'd be happy to guide you.

Before we get started, a few points …

… about the process:
1. Could you please confirm that you agree with the Disclaimer on the home page of the LU site?
2. Let's aim to write once a day if possible, even if it's short. It is a good way to keep up the momentum. I'm still guiding a Kiwi so I'm used to the time lag (I'm in France at the mo').
3. Responses require utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best formulated from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). If you are unfamiliar with Direct Experience please let me know.

… about posting:
1. You might want to familiarise yourself with the useful 'Quote' function: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ote#p12593.
2. Best write your post in your favourite word processor, then copy & paste it into the editor on the LU forum, then format it as you wish. That way you won't lose your work half-way through (which can happen if there is a hiccup with the Internet connection...)
3. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Sooooo. Now the formalities have been seen to, if you still want to go ahead let's get started.
In the response to this first post could you please say a little more about what brings you here, and most particularly what you think/hope/expect could come out of this process, if successful?

Looking forward to working with you!

Cheers
Dridhamati

Hi and thanks a million, Dridhamati.

Yes, I agree re the disclaimer - I have no problems with it at all.

As for what brings me here: I have had some significant shifts in my experience of 'me' in the last 12 months or so. Lately I have been under some stress (work) and I feel like I've kind of lost touch with something that was easier before - hard to say what but it was something that felt stable and clear and with a collapsing of inside and outside. Overall my motivation is probably as mixture of wanting to alleviate some immediate suffering and to continue to explore the mystery of 'me'.

As for what I expect - I really don't know what to expect! I feel the possibilities are open and intriguing. As for what I hope - I guess I hope to crack wide awake.

Thanks again. Happy to post each day and be totally honest

Kathy (yes, it's fine to call me that)

Hi Kathy,

Yes, I agree re the disclaimer - I have no problems with it at all.
Thanks again. Happy to post each day and be totally honest

Great! And it's a pleasure.

As for what brings me here: I have had some significant shifts in my experience of 'me' in the last 12 months or so. Lately I have been under some stress (work) and I feel like I've kind of lost touch with something that was easier before - hard to say what but it was something that felt stable and clear and with a collapsing of inside and outside. Overall my motivation is probably as mixture of wanting to alleviate some immediate suffering and to continue to explore the mystery of 'me'.

It is difficult to know what the shifts you experienced are about from what you say. They must have been significant since they eventually brought you to LU.
Rather than attempt to define these shifts or to recreate them in some way, I propose we shelf them for the time being and concentrate on the investigation at hand.
The sole purpose of our dialogue is to look closely at this “me”, “self”, “I”.
You will eventually realise beyond doubt that “I” is a fraud, a sham, an elaborate construct; that “I” does no exist and never has existed.
Once this work has been done, we can then revisit your past experiences -if that's still relevant.

As for what I expect - I really don't know what to expect! I feel the possibilities are open and intriguing.

Beautiful, let's keep the possibilities open and intriguing, and leave the expectations behind.

As for what I hope - I guess I hope to crack wide awake.

Hope is a concept, a thought.
It relates to an undefined future over which “YOU” have no control.
And besides there's no “YOU” to crack wide open.

In the next post could you please write what the 4 statements in bold evoke in you?

Cheers,
Dridhamati

You will eventually realise beyond doubt that “I” is a fraud, a sham, an elaborate construct; that “I” does no exist and never has existed

.

What this evokes in me: This realisation comes and goes for me. There is a paradox going on. If I look for my 'I' I can only find sensations, a deeply felt sense of the world, movements of something (like a lava lamp). Rather than feeling like I am here and the world (sensations, sounds etc) is outside that 'here' I can tune in to a sort of flow of how 'the world' is creating me. I.e. I am nothing more than experience. That's particularly true when I meditate. It's like I dissolve into whatever is happening. Outside meditation if I ask myself 'what am I?' Again all I can come up with is 'whatever is happening'. Love is something that is always there - in the sense that if I look, it's there.

So, I feel like if I look for the I at any point, I can't find it. However, the paradox is that when I'm not looking for it it in the course of the day the perspective above is totally out the window. It's 'me' and 'mine' all the way down. The inside/outside has reconstructed itself.

Hope is a concept, a thought.
It relates to an undefined future over which “YOU” have no control.
And besides there's no “YOU” to crack wide open

.

What this evokes in me: I go immediately to the statement about having no control. In terms of time, the past has dropped away for me to a significant extent. I would say that 'hope' expresses a sense of lack in the present rather than a belief in a defined future. But control! This is exactly what's causing my suffering at the moment. Stress reactions have come up for the first time in a long time and I feel like I'm just seeing this lack of control at a level that is painful. I don't like the way I am and I can see that this is just a set of feelings/reactions being triggered - I.e 'I' am not doing anything. It's just happening. I guess the rub is that it doesn't feel ok. There is an extended playing out of not liking the feelings going on. Lots of 'me' and 'mine' every day. If I look for the 'I' I find a bratty, baby. Eg: if I ask 'who doesn't like this?' There's a part of me almost stamping it's feet saying I DONT. There is a very visceral sense of an I that is there, not to be argued with.



As for there being no me to crack wide open. That statement gets an intellectual 'yes' but a deeper sense of confusion and brings up longing - to experience my life differently.

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for your clear answers.

This realisation comes and goes for me.

This would indicate that doubt is still very present.

The inside/outside has reconstructed itself.

Is this a turn of phrase or do you actually believe this?

In other words, do you think/believe that the “self” or “I” is something that disappears and reappears depending upon external conditions?
Something like: while meditating, no “self” present; while working, the “self” is back.
Trying to corner the issue here.

I go immediately to the statement about having no control. In terms of time, the past...

You mention stress and pain in this paragraph.
Are you OK continuing?

If you are, again please report on the questions in bold.

Cheers,
Dridhamati

The inside/outside has reconstructed itself.

Is this a turn of phrase or do you actually believe this?

I am pointing to what happens in my experience when I look for the I and what my experience can be when I am not actively looking.

In other words, do you think/believe that the “self” or “I” is something that disappears and reappears depending upon external conditions?
Something like: while meditating, no “self” present; while working, the “self” is back.
Trying to corner the issue here.

Hmmm. First thing is that it's not a distinction that's necessarily about meditation. My sense of being a self is stronger at some times more than others. As for what causes that? I really don't know if I'm being honest. If I ask myself right now 'does the self disappear/reappear?' I get a 'yes' but then the bottom drops out of that. I can't say what it is that disappears/reappears.

I go immediately to the statement about having no control. In terms of time, the past...

You mention stress and pain in this paragraph.
Are you OK continuing?

Yes, most definitely. It's not a problem.

Hi Kathy,

Great to read it's OK to continue.

Back to a previous post, you state:

So, I feel like if I look for the I at any point, I can't find it.

And what do you conclude from this unsuccessful search?

Cheers,
Dridhamati

I conclude that the firm sense of I isn't what it seems to be. There are just happenings. I can't separate experience and experiencier. There is an enduring vividness which is effortless. I can't say it ever goes away. I can't say it's permanent though. It seems like it's beyond coming and going. I can't seem to say much more without straying into theories.


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Hi Kathy,

I conclude that the firm sense of I isn't what it seems to be. There are just happenings. I can't separate experience and experiencier. There is an enduring vividness which is effortless.

Nice. This is getting somewhere.
Just to clarify, when this was written down, were you writing from the perspective of direct experience, or were you referring to (a) past experience(s)?

I can't say it ever goes away. I can't say it's permanent though. It seems like it's beyond coming and going. I can't seem to say much more without straying into theories.

”It” here being the “self” I assume?

You do not seem to want to theorise, and that is excellent. This investigation will only succeed if we stay away from theories, and remain with direct experience.

Yet what would you say these sentences are: 'I can't say it ever goes away.', 'I can't say it's permanent though.', 'It seems like it's beyond coming and going.'
They read like thought processes attempting to formulate theories, don't they?

Please try this exercise.
1. Pick a simple object (a mug for example), clear a space (a table top) and place the object in the middle. Now sit down and look at the object.
2. Write down what is perceived with the eyes -NOT what you THINK you perceive-, down to the most elementary description possible.
3. Then please report.

Cheers,
Dridhamati

I conclude that the firm sense of I isn't what it seems to be. There are just happenings. I can't separate experience and experiencier. There is an enduring vividness which is effortless.

Nice. This is getting somewhere.
Just to clarify, when this was written down, were you writing from the perspective of direct experience, or were you referring to (a) past experience(s)?

Direct experience. I was talking from the point of view of what was going on.

I can't say it ever goes away. I can't say it's permanent though. It seems like it's beyond coming and going. I can't seem to say much more without straying into theories.

”It” here being the “self” I assume?

No, am not talking about the self here. Interesting to be asked what 'it' is...so hard say. I can only say "awareness" or 'I am-ness' seems to fit too.



Yet what would you say these sentences are: 'I can't say it ever goes away.', 'I can't say it's permanent though.', 'It seems like it's beyond coming and going.'
They read like thought processes attempting to formulate theories, don't they?

Perhaps, but what I was doing at the time was trying to describe something that was happening. It's always happening. If it's not communicating anything by saying that, I'm happy to leave it aside and just get on with the exercises.

Please try this exercise.
1. Pick a simple object (a mug for example), clear a space (a table top) and place the object in the middle. Now sit down and look at the object.

I chose the air-con control and put it on the bed near me and am looking at it

2. Write down what is perceived with the eyes -NOT what you THINK you perceive-, down to the most elementary description possible. 3. Then please report.

I can't say anything is perceived with the eyes. There is, however, perception. Colours, writing (the brand written on it). Shapes. Shadows. Awareness of light. The air-con control and sheet are in clear focus and the rest of my visual field has blurry bits. Everything is joined together in the visual field.



Cheers,
Dridhamati[/quote]

Oops, I didn't manage to use the quote function very well that time. Hope it's ok to follow!

Oops, I didn't manage to use the quote function very well that time. Hope it's ok to follow!

No worries, it's fine, writing the response now. :-)

That's, good. I notice now that there's a preview button. Will use that in future. Back to work tomorrow, which involves lots of travel and full days so my replies might slow but I will still aim to post every day. The time difference between Australia and France is another factor, of course. Anyway, should be able to reply again today once your response hits.


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Hi Kathy,

I'll break down the answers to avoid long posts.

I can't say it ever goes away. I can't say it's permanent though. It seems like it's beyond coming and going. I can't seem to say much more without straying into theories.

”It” here being the “self” I assume?

No, am not talking about the self here. Interesting to be asked what 'it' is...so hard say. I can only say "awareness" or 'I am-ness' seems to fit too.

This is why I asked. :-)
Are we talking apples and pears here?
The paragraph from which the above quote ('I can't say it ever goes away...') was taken, started with a reference to “I” ('I conclude that the firm sense of I isn't what it seems to be...')
Is the “I” you refer to (in red) different than the “self” we refer to in LU?
And could you please explain what it is you call 'awareness' or 'I am-ness'?
I understand it might be difficult but we need to have some coherence of terms for this process to have any chance at succeeding.
Thanks.

Cheers,
Dridhamati