Otter Rivers and Cassius Ribhkus
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:59 am
[FROM FACEBOOK GATE GROUP/PRIVATE CHAT. PASTED TO GUIDING AREA]
Cassius Ribhkus-
I pondered hard and here is what I feel:
Even the search for Enlightenment is the Ego deceiving you. It tells you that you're not happy, that by asking these questions and getting these answers would make you Enlightened.
In actual fact, there is no need. The paradox is, there was never a need to be "Enlightened" or even questioning. Because no matter how hard you search, you'll never find the answer.
And here's the best part, there was never a need to question or have an answer. It is all there. All Is.
And so, knowing this, all you got to do is enjoy the show called Life.
Free from the need to question or obtain an answer simply because it is pointless to do so.
There was never a question or an answer. The Ego tricked us into it. Realising this, is the Truth.
Otter Rivers -Cassius I would like to ask:
Have you seen fully through illusion of self or is anything missing?
Cassius Ribhkus Otter Rivers I have somehow grasped it. The Self (Ego) latches itself on memories, events (past or future), and creates unnecessary doubts and questions. Alas, I'm still curious as to why I don't really feel "free". I still have this sense that there is something missing but I have no idea what it is.
Cassius Ribhkus But you see, I also have come to an understanding that even the desire to be Enlightened / Free is alas, a desire. Perhaps one is truly free when one let's go. That is the message I'm getting. I hope I'm right. Just need some assurance on this one as the monkey Mind is questioning even this haha
Christian Shadlock When you say 'I don't feel free' - What is 'I'?
Cassius Ribhkus The Ego. It always tries to latch on an identity or an idea to somewhat comfort itself that it has found the Truth.
Cassius Ribhkus Btw, when you speak of the illusion of the self, are you referring to the Ego? Because as I was growing up, I was raised to understand that the Self is separate from the Ego (based on Ramana Maharshi's articles)
i'll continue with you Cassius. sorry for the delay.
Otter Rivers so tell me more about the ego and the self. you say you have grasped that there is not really a separate self. logically it makes sense right? but experience is more important. you say you don't feel free. understanding is not enough. so we'll go through some exercises that will show you for yourself whatever is trye.
but first some questions.
1) tell me what is ego? is it a thing? does it exist? you might say the ego does this or that but is there an ego? describe what you find.
2) is ego different than self? depends what you mean by "self" right? self is a word. it means what you think it means.
So look for "I". please describe what you find when looking for it. not what you think about it, but what is actually experienced.
Otter Rivers 3) even the search for enlightenment is a selfish desire? yes I can see how that's true. but if you desire to stop desiring, is that any better?
why do you want to be free from desire?
- to improve your life?
- to help make others happy because that is what you want for them?
is there any escape from that selfishness?
Otter Rivers your answers should give me a good idea of where we're at here then we can get into some DE (direct experience) exercises.
Cassius Ribhkus-
Hi Otters! I have been doing some soul searching (to put it in laymen terms haha) and here is something I wrote recently which I think will answer all the questions. And I am convinced this is the answer.
The My Syndrome. My car, my wife, my life, my job, my kids, my husband, my food, my shirt, my pants, my computer, my this and my that, but really, who is this my fellow? Who am I?
And so I start by questioning this name which was given to me since I was born but really, deep down I know that even this is not me. It is but a label given to this identity in this present body. So who am I? And that is when the questioning process begins. I start to question my existence. How I came about, who I was in my past births, which planetary system I came from, which star I fall under, my astrological signs. I start to delve into religious practices and spiritual practices simply because I am not satisfied with the answer. I start to pray to an illusionary God. And then I start to question even him. I start to experience conventional and non conventional methods; meditation, yoga, psychedelics, substances. I start reading books, listening to podcasts, read articles, watch videos, scouring, looking, seeking, finding for an answer but really, who am I? And I get desperate at every phase of the process.
Who is this being, seemingly trapped in a human body, stuck in this cycle of life and death, governed by the laws of physics and gravity and not to mention the laws of cause and effect and obligated to an illusionary God and fearing his illusionary sidekick, the Devil?
Who am I?
And so I question everything under the sun and moon. My very existence, purpose, meaning to life. But really, who am I? I learn terminologies that label me and it only complicated matters. I start learning about the soul and spirit and chakras and various ways by various Masters but each time when I think I have found an answer, I drop down disappointed and resume questioning everything again and again. It is always going back to the same square one. Who am I?
I crave to find out the Truth. The very same written in myriad of Holy texts and hymns. I crave to unearth my true identity. By now, I already know that I am not just an identity or an entity. I already understand that I am a part of a process. This process. But again, who am I? And it's a simple answer to a really stupid question.
A paradox. But a necessary one.
And as long as the Ego remains, as long as the Ego is not put to sleep, I will never feel Awake. Because the Ego has this habit of labelling itself. I am this. I am that. That is mine. This is me. That is you. I am not Enlightened. I am Enlightened. The Ego, in a bid to find out its true identity, chooses to ignore the simple answer. A very simple answer simply because the Ego thinks the answer should be something complex. The Ego tells me that the Truth I'm searching for is grand, mysterious, beautiful, majestic, big, huge and whenever it finds a need a to label something, it will never cease to stop labelling. And so long as it is never satisfied, I'll keep searching.
So who am I?
I had always known who I was but had chosen to ignore the answer. The answer, alas, had always been staring point blank in my face.
I am nothing.
There you go. I am free. It's an offensive answer if the Ego is not put to bed. But truly, I have always been nothing and there was never a need to question in the first place simply because this is the Truth. And even the word nothing, is alas a label to a feeling you get when you come to a point where you just let go and let be. All Is.
All that questioning was but a process to tame the Ego. To put it to sleep and remind myself that I had always been Awake.
What a paradox! What foolishness! I laugh it off. All Is. Just be.
I am free!
Otter Rivers ok. so you clearly state there is an ego that must be put to sleep.
Otter Rivers and you say the biggest question is "who am I?" how about this one: is there any such thing as a 'Who'?
Cassius Ribhkus There is nothing. All is
Otter Rivers ask yourself this. "what is "I"?" please tell me not what you have already figured out, but what is found when looking right now.
Cassius Ribhkus I is just a letter. A label of some sort.
Otter Rivers so you can't really find an I, but try harder. don't tell me what is not there. tell me what you do find in the search.
Otter Rivers a label for what?
Otter Rivers stop.
Otter Rivers please don't feel the need to answer quickly
Otter Rivers I have to leave for a few hours. maybe 6 hours.
Otter Rivers take your time. relax if you can. get out of thinking and look at reality. look at what is perceived. when looking for "I", you may not find it. but what is found along the way while searching?
Otter Rivers i'll check back in tonight (i'm on u.s. west coast time. you?)
Cassius Ribhkus Haha Otters, all I get is a brain numbing sensation that I just feel that the questioning should stop and I should just start seeing things for what they are. Seeing things as it is and be completely free and liberated from even the search. I'm based in Malaysia, it's 3.22AM here.
Otter Rivers let's look at some places commonly considered to be evidence of a separate self.
-body. senses/sensations
-thoughts, thinking/thinker
-control, decision making, free will
-awareness, one who is aware of separate outside stimuli/experiencer vs experience
Otter Rivers starting with body: here's an exercise to look into body as self. it's not enough to know logically you are not the body. let's have a look at actual reality before mental commentary about it.
Otter Rivers Close your eyes (after reading this ) notice the feelings labeled "body" now look for an end to the feeling. hear the sounds and see if they are really happening outside of this feeling of being. where do you end and "everything else" begin? now try flipping it around. imagine everything else at the center and the body feeling as the outer... (leave out anything you've ever learned about biology or physics for a moment.) is either perspective actually true in d.e.?
Otter Rivers when closing your eyes, feeling "body". and while noticing sounds. which is closer, the sound or the body feeling? closer to what?
Cassius Ribhkus I feel the sounds are closer than the feeling of body, although I do feel the body's presence.
Otter Rivers is there a center of sensitivity inside the body that notices everything?
Otter Rivers if so, what notices that?
Otter Rivers can you find a noticer?
Cassius Ribhkus Yes there is. It is this nameless, formless, I.
Otter Rivers if it is nameless and formless then how is it located only in the body?
Otter Rivers exercise: pick up any object around you. tell me when you have done so.
Cassius Ribhkus Alright Otter, I have picked up my wallet nearby. Holding it right now.
Otter Rivers now look at it. feel it
Otter Rivers can you find any actual separation between thethe object and awareness of the object?
Otter Rivers if you can, please describe. look for the exact dividing line between what is noticed and the noticing of it
Cassius Ribhkus Visually yes. It is square, slightly rough. Black in color.
Cassius Ribhkus And when I run my fingers on its surface, I can feel the difference in texture and design of it.
Otter Rivers i'm not asking for a description of the object of awareness. i'm asking can you find a dividing line where there is noticing vs what is noticed.
Otter Rivers ?
Cassius Ribhkus If that is the case, none. I feel it's one and the same.
Otter Rivers if there is no you, then how is there a central observer? or is it just one thing happening? I don't have a word for it but a good description might be experience and experiencer before the thought of separation between the 2.
Cassius Ribhkus In other words, you're saying, all is. Correct?
Otter Rivers well of course all is. how could it not be? i'm suggesting that you consider that the idea of a me witnessing an outer world is a learned fiction
Otter Rivers but I don't ask you to believe it. that's what these exercises are for. whatever is true, you'll see for yourself. I recommend being very suspicious of anything I say. what if i'm wrong? let d.e. be your guide
Otter Rivers I've got to go to work now. I won't be home until midnight (4am for you) so i'll send you off with this homework. take this with you through the day and night and morning. whenever you remember. look at everything happening. go outside look at the sky and animals and trees. be around people while they're doing their thing. look for self. ("others" is another word for self. if it is assumed that there are selfs in the others) is there any motivating force behind any of it? or is it just movement, color, sound, sensation. just experience playing out. including experience of watching.
Otter Rivers talk to you tomorrow cassius later!
Cassius Ribhkus Otter! There is no I. Just the process. Because when I looked at the wallet, visually I saw its shape. When I touched it, I felt its roughness. But really, there was no observer. Simply these sensations. There is really nothing.
Otter Rivers bye for now.
Cassius Ribhkus Alright, will practise this homework. Thanks buddy, see you tomorrow
Otter Rivers it doesn't take any time to "figure it out". just tell me what you find.
Cassius Ribhkus Otter, I suppose All Is. No I, nothing and yet everything.
Otter Rivers we're not aiming at finding a new conclusion or a new understanding. what is the truth of what you are? it's not a formula or a goal to be achieved. what do you find to be true that can NOT be disputed?
Cassius Ribhkus Nothing.
Cassius Ribhkus In all honesty, there is no proper word to describe it. Many mystics and Masters have used words to label it, but really, there is no point in labeling. Just being. Aware of the "present".
Otter Rivers many mystic masters can fuck off.
Otter Rivers lol. as far as we're concerned here right?
Cassius Ribhkus Of course! When you see Buddha, kill him
Otter Rivers no actual disrespect meant to any of them, I only disrespect the leaning on other's findings. no matter how holy they seem so let's find out what you see
Otter Rivers all this looking and pointing about what is self... it tends to lend it credibility. let's just relax and see what's actually going on here...
Cassius Ribhkus Like I said Otter, Nothing. There was never a need to find or question simply because there was never a need. I don;t know how else to put it into words as if i do, it's beyond words.
Cassius Ribhkus It's a hilarious paradox.
Cassius Ribhkus Like a dog chasing after its own tail when the tail had always been the dog.
Otter Rivers it's not like you said. what actually is, is not "nothing". that is just a cool word. and I know you can't use words to describe what is beyond words, so this isn't a rebuke, just another pointer. it's not what we say.
Otter Rivers yeah.
Otter Rivers so have you completely seen through illusion of an imaginary separate "me"? if not, what would you say is missing from this guidance?
Cassius Ribhkus Completely, not yet. Hahaha but I know the key is letting go. Direct experience is another key. It's like switching off a fan, it takes time for the blades to halt. Likewise for the Ego fan haha
Cassius Ribhkus But I'm grasping this Truth slowly but surely !
Otter Rivers sounds like your giving yourself a project to work on for years and never complete.
Otter Rivers looking and reporting what I actually perceived now, is there a separate self or not? if so describe. and is what you've described actually a separate self?
Otter Rivers it's no good looking for results to see if you've really seen what is true. if you're waiting for life to become perfectly smooth to the point where you are never tricked again, that's not what i'm looking to help with. the goal is seeing. not what effects the seeing my have your life.
Cassius Ribhkus Otter, give me some time to answer this. In the mean time, can you recommend me a practise that would help me better understand?
Otter Rivers there's nothing to understand. but I understand the craving for some technique. that's conditioned response. wanting to grasp it and "get it". i'll tell you this technique. let go. give up. you're never gonna get it. it wll never benefit you. you can't even do anything about giving up. you cant actually let go since you never had a grip. so just let go.
Otter Rivers no technique will get you where you've always been. techniques will only keep the mind satisfied.
Otter Rivers take all the time you need. but it's not something that takes time. let's talk more tomorrow!
Cassius Ribhkus Thank you Otter! See you tomorrow
Otter Rivers so what do you have to say lately? where are you at with all of this?
Cassius Ribhkus- Otter, I sent you a PM. Let's talk there haha
Otter Rivers- yes, reading back over our conversation I see I may have misunderstood some things you said and reacted slightly incorrectly to what you were probably actually saying. like when you said you'd like a technique to help ou see this more clearly, yes we have direct experience exercises that will help with that. i'll talk to you now in PM.
[CONTINUED IN PRIVATE CHAT]
Cassius Rhibkus- To answer your question, I have stopped questioning, and I know the key is all about letting go. But somehow, I feel like I'm giving up.
Otter Rivers- perfect.
is this seen as a bad thing? if so, where do you feel there is still work to be done?
[C=CASSIUS / O=OTTER]
C- I have mixed feelings about it. Sometimes I feel calm and other times I feel the things I do such as my job and all seems redundant.
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O- probably because it is redundant.
repetitive
creatures need food and shelter. humans seem to mostly do that by getting jobs and money. oh well. yeah I work too and take transit every day for a total of 4 hours. it is very repetitive.
so if you saw that there was really no "you/me" self experiencing the experience, just experience happening including awareness (not separate: awareness vs. experience) would there always be feelings of calm or is some turbulence allowed?
also, seeing that there is no self, is this proof that consciousness will never fall into identification again? can you know that? i'll tell you, I am often finding that I am in trance of "being me" but I have definitely seen that is just a dream state. so when being me causes enough suffering, looking happens again and it is seen clearly again that it was just a dream. an illusion. it happens faster and faster as time goes by but if I was waiting for permanent calm and bliss before I accepted that I had seen that self is fiction, then I would still be waiting and denying I had actually seen it.
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C- I suppose if there is no "you/me" I would be calm and turbulences would just be considered as another learning process. An experience of some sort. I find it to be an up and down graph. At times I feel really calm and relaxed and sort of "neutral" about things. And there are other times when I feel really choked, suffocated at times. But I know it is just me strangling myself haha So I just practise letting go. I don't even know if I have seen it. But many experiences have been quite convincing that the consciousness can and will never fall into identification again. I remember going two weeks last Dec simply feeling euphoric and relaxed with life. But I realised nothing is permanent and so I fall back into the repetitive zone again. Like a cycle haha
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O- right. well we're not trying to achieve an effect here. that is not the reason i'm talking to you.
so tell me where you still find identification as a separate being?
you are the one feeling the ups and downs? you are the one letting go or choking yourself? there is a thing inside that receives the experience and lets go or not? let's find it. then we can ask "then what notices that?"
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C- I usually find identification to a certain phase in my life as a separate being. It assumes this event as good and that event as bad etc
.I know I'm not the one and I also understand that the Ego latches on to these experiences and perceives it as letting go and choking myself. And of course there were many times I have found myself observing myself doing this.
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O- 1) is there any control over whether an event is seen as good or bad?
2)what is the ego? is it something?
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C- 1) Absolutely none. But I do know that I'm free to make the choices but not at all free from the consequences
2) I view the Ego as this thing that views itself as Cassius Ribhkus, age 28, from Malaysia etc and Cassius has a car. But I also know the Ego is subtle in that it makes one feel negative and even positive. It gives a reason for things and meaning.
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O- ok let's focus on choice then we can come back to ego as a thing.
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C- Alright
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O- if there is no you, what is choice? is there a chooser?
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C- If there is no me, then there is nothing haha no choice or chooser
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O- I can understand if you say you are free to do whatever. but is there ever any possibility, looking back, that any other thing could have happened?
i have a great exercise for this. i use it a lot. it works wonders. let me copy it here. one moment!
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C- Hmm I suppose there is a possibility because I doubt this thing we call life is predetermined
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O- predetermined? by who or what?
i'm only suggesting that we check out is there really anything called choice?
if so there would need to be a chooser.
i'm not saying that creatures don't look at options and do what they do, just that there is no other path that they could go. only the one they do go.
like any organism. responding to circumstances.
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C- Choice as in, do I go to bed now or later? And I choose, and face the consequence of sleeping early or late.
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O-
here's the exercise. Take your time. if you do it right, it should take at least 10minutes. please let me know how it goes. answer each part like
1)
2)
3)
take a few minutes and actually do this slowly and watchfully.
This is very over-simplified for a reason.
let's take a good hard look at exactly what is happening with what we call "decision making"!
Answer each part ok? it's a good exercise. it gets right to the point!
1) Sit with one hand on each leg. think about the right hand moving. think "I will move the right hand".
imagine it happening.
did the hand move?
2) now just move the right hand. try it both ways again. watch closely, what was the difference?
3) was there any cause-effect relationship between the thought and the movement? or was there simply a thought,
then either movement or not, then another thought "I did that. I moved the hand."? Do this a few times very slowly.
report only exactly what is noticed.
4) after spending a few minutes on that last exercise, return both hands to resting on your legs.
Now think "I will decide to move my left or right hand".
Wait until you are calm and settled. Watch closely! Now move one of your hands (or both/neither. whatever).
5) did choosing really happen or was there possibly just a thought "I will move my ____ hand" and then this happened or not,
followed almost immediately by another thought "I did that. I chose to do that." ...?
the word "choice" implies that something else could've happened, right?
is there choice happening? what IS choice? is it an idea or does it actually happen?
is there a chooser/agent/decider? did you do/choose/decide it?
or did something just happen followed by a habitual thought "I chose/did that."
6) let's say the right hand moved. looking directly at reality,
is there any possibility at all that the left could have moved that time? could it have been different?
can you know that? if you can say there is such a thing as choice in direct experience, shouldnt you be able to find in direct experience
that something else could've happened?
go through a day and watch decisions as closely as you can without straining. every little decision you notice...
what is really happening?
(also watch this investigation. is there something there that is investigating, or is investigation simply happening?)
so i'll come back some time today and look for your response.
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C- Alright Otter, thank you!
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1) No
2) I moved my right hand
3) I thought of moving my right hand and it didn't move and I thought to myself, "Well it didn't move." But when I moved the right hand, it moved, I saw it moved and felt it moved. And then I heard myself say, "Okay, moved it now."
4) I thought to myself and was calm and settled and observed closely. I saw my left thumb twitch. So I moved that. On the second try, I decided not to move any of my hands. I didn't had thoughts about it, I just moved the left hand for the first try and none for the second.
5) I chose it. Yes, the word choice gives an impression that something else could have happened. Yes, there was a decider. I was free to choose.
6) The possibility of the left moving was equally high as the right. But I decided to move only the right. Heck, even both or none would have moved. I can only know when it happens.
Will get back to you on the going through the day part.
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O- Hey i'm sorry I have been so busy!!! please have a look at this video in the meantime. i'll try to respond more fully tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM#t=12
Neuroscience and Free Will
www.youtube.com
O- http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_Recom ... ading.html
some other cool videos about science and self/decision making.
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C- Beautiful! Thank you so much! Will read and watch these videos and books
.Btw Otter, I'm gonna surrender to "Life" and just see where it goes. Why resist it? Futile attempt haha
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O- yes! u cant even do anything about the surrendering! it happens when it does. you are not the surrender. this was a huge lesson i had to learn! i mean i knew it for years but when i saw it clearly letting go follows naturally
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C- The answer was right there, directly staring at me and yet I had to stupidly concoct all sort of questions and imagine answers hahaa
.Thank you Otter, truly appreciate this
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O- oh you are very welcome. here are some questions for you to help me see if we're done with this talk. (we can still talk but we'll see if this 'process' is done.)
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C- Alright
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O- 1) was there ever a self in any way at all in life? if so, what is it?
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C- 1) No there was never a self.
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O- what is self?
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C-Nothing
.Self was just a silly identification to the body.
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O- 2) what is the illusion of separate 'Me' self? how does it begin? how does it work? how is it maintained?
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C- 2) The body. It makes one believe that this body is me. It begins when one starts to feel dissatisfied and goes on a never ending quest to seek an illusionary answer. As long as there are questions, this silly "Me" is there.
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O- 3) how does it feel to see this. is there any difference between now and before we started talking? describe:
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C- 3) I feel calm and extremely relaxed There is, but also deep down I had always known this was the truth but I was so ignorant to this fact. Now that I have faced it, let go, it feels great !
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O- What was different before we started talking? Anything different now that was not so before we talked?
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C- I feel silly and foolish haha I feel that all those questions were unnecessary when the Truth is, this is it !
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O- 4) what was the last bit that pushed you through? Was there any specific part of our talk that caused you to look and see?
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C- 4) I just came to a point where I had enough of these questions. Grew extremely tired of it and I decided to let it all go. I remember you telling me that it was repetitive and redundant, and I had been feeling this way before you said it. But as usual, the Self being doubtful, constantly questions. I just grew tired of the unnecessary chatter of questioning.
.Much more at peace now
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O- 5) do you decide, intend, control any events in life? Please explain. Feel free to rant. I'd rather have that than a simple yes or no answer.
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C- 5) I can only decide so much and intend this much and probably control a little but even that, I know, if I let go fully, life will naturally take its course.
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O- 5a) if you can decide, what is it that is deciding? you saw that video about how 'decisions' are made in the brain up to 6 seconds before mind thinks it decided. so is mind ("I") deciding?
5b) Can you choose to let go fully? having chosen to let go, will this decision last permanently?
what is decision besides a thought?
what is "I" besides a thought?!
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C- Hi Otter, give me some time to reply ya. My turn to be busy this time haha
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O- UNACCEPTABLE DUDE!
Ahhhhh! just joking. take your time. dont be too long though!
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is "i" or "me" "ego" separate self anything or just words and thoughts that dont represent anything in actual experience?
can words or thoughts do anything? can a thought think? can thought choose or decide?
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C- Hi Otters! Sorry for keeping you waiting!
.I'm trying really hard to put to words to answer you. Thoughts cannot choose or decide (tried your right hand moving exercise). Although words and separate selves are necessary (if you take our conversation as an example) they also don't mean a thing.
.But what we think is what we become.
.It works both ways.
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O- so do you ACTUALLY decide or control anything?
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C- Yes, I do ultimately.
.But only from the inside (if this is a correct term to use haha)
.I can't control the weather hahaha but I can choose to be happy if it rains or shines.
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O- is "i' anything other than a collection of thoughts?
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what is "i" byond thought?
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C- It's nothing.
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O- can "nothing" choose, decide, take action?
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C- Ahh you got me there! Hahaha of course not!
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O- ok. so outside of mental abstraction do you have any control? do you decide anything? is an imaginary thing (seperate self being) capable of doing ANYTHING?
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C- Beyond mental abstraction I have no control whatsoever. I can decide on what to do (should I eat this or that etc, do I decide to let go or question?) An imaginary thing is not capable of doing anything at all
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O- you saw the video about how the body takes action up to 6 seconds before a person says they decided. maybe the body just "cooses" (if you can call it that) it reacts to situations and then "selfing" habits say "yes i did that for this or that reason" so that it can continue to seem like an entity.
even all the bad stuff. like feeling not good enough. like thinking you're a bad person and all guilt... can you see how there's a secret payoff there. a reward? illusion of self as separate from life is maintained in self hate as well as arrogance.
this isn't wisdome from otter to cassius. i'm not saying it as fact for you to accept or debate. it's called a pointer. look where these words point. tell me what u see.
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C- In other words, if we can let go the need for a reason for anything we do, the illusion shatters, correct?
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O- the illusion of an "I, We, Me" that can let go disappears...
I am not going to push it. I know it's only a habit that causes this returning to "I" thinking. as if anything that happens needs a doer or something for it to happen to. is there really this separation?
.A lot of it is supported by language. but consider this: just because humans invented some words like "hearing, hearer, heard" does this mean there is really a being that hears as opposed to what is heard? or is it just happening? like when you did the exercise holding your wallet. the sensations just happened. when looking for a controller or something that can let go.... isn't it the same? there is letting go or not. you can't even choose to believe this or not. just tell me what you see.
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C- The only way I can put it Otter, is that all is happening. No doings
.Everything is one and the same process
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O- yeah i think i agree! haha.
so please give an example or 2 from life story of cassius recently where it was clear there was no decider or chooser or controller.
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C- Like now, I'm going on a trip to meet someone whom I have never met via Facebook. It just happened at the spur of the moment as this person is a mutual friend of one of mine.
.I'm just going to see what he has to teach and show and at the same time I'm looking forward to share what I have learnt.
.
O- ah. yes i've done that too. met a few cool people through l.u. in my area.
.
C- But on a smaller scale (if you wish to put it that way) It is when I drive my car. I know where the road leads and I just go with the flow
.And I also know the destination but I enjoy the ride, the scenery and the moments. It's beautful
.
O- yeah i recommend not teaching just pointing at what you see. that's what i'm doing here .questions are great pointers
awesome. i'll have a closer look tonight at our conversation and see if i've missed anything. and please consider it too. have we missed anything? are we done? i mean with the purpose of this conversation. are you "through the gate"?
.
C- Life happens Otters, and there is nothing I can do about it. We just have to enjoy the happenings.
Cassius Ribhkus-
I pondered hard and here is what I feel:
Even the search for Enlightenment is the Ego deceiving you. It tells you that you're not happy, that by asking these questions and getting these answers would make you Enlightened.
In actual fact, there is no need. The paradox is, there was never a need to be "Enlightened" or even questioning. Because no matter how hard you search, you'll never find the answer.
And here's the best part, there was never a need to question or have an answer. It is all there. All Is.
And so, knowing this, all you got to do is enjoy the show called Life.
Free from the need to question or obtain an answer simply because it is pointless to do so.
There was never a question or an answer. The Ego tricked us into it. Realising this, is the Truth.
Otter Rivers -Cassius I would like to ask:
Have you seen fully through illusion of self or is anything missing?
Cassius Ribhkus Otter Rivers I have somehow grasped it. The Self (Ego) latches itself on memories, events (past or future), and creates unnecessary doubts and questions. Alas, I'm still curious as to why I don't really feel "free". I still have this sense that there is something missing but I have no idea what it is.
Cassius Ribhkus But you see, I also have come to an understanding that even the desire to be Enlightened / Free is alas, a desire. Perhaps one is truly free when one let's go. That is the message I'm getting. I hope I'm right. Just need some assurance on this one as the monkey Mind is questioning even this haha
Christian Shadlock When you say 'I don't feel free' - What is 'I'?
Cassius Ribhkus The Ego. It always tries to latch on an identity or an idea to somewhat comfort itself that it has found the Truth.
Cassius Ribhkus Btw, when you speak of the illusion of the self, are you referring to the Ego? Because as I was growing up, I was raised to understand that the Self is separate from the Ego (based on Ramana Maharshi's articles)
i'll continue with you Cassius. sorry for the delay.
Otter Rivers so tell me more about the ego and the self. you say you have grasped that there is not really a separate self. logically it makes sense right? but experience is more important. you say you don't feel free. understanding is not enough. so we'll go through some exercises that will show you for yourself whatever is trye.
but first some questions.
1) tell me what is ego? is it a thing? does it exist? you might say the ego does this or that but is there an ego? describe what you find.
2) is ego different than self? depends what you mean by "self" right? self is a word. it means what you think it means.
So look for "I". please describe what you find when looking for it. not what you think about it, but what is actually experienced.
Otter Rivers 3) even the search for enlightenment is a selfish desire? yes I can see how that's true. but if you desire to stop desiring, is that any better?
why do you want to be free from desire?
- to improve your life?
- to help make others happy because that is what you want for them?
is there any escape from that selfishness?
Otter Rivers your answers should give me a good idea of where we're at here then we can get into some DE (direct experience) exercises.
Cassius Ribhkus-
Hi Otters! I have been doing some soul searching (to put it in laymen terms haha) and here is something I wrote recently which I think will answer all the questions. And I am convinced this is the answer.
The My Syndrome. My car, my wife, my life, my job, my kids, my husband, my food, my shirt, my pants, my computer, my this and my that, but really, who is this my fellow? Who am I?
And so I start by questioning this name which was given to me since I was born but really, deep down I know that even this is not me. It is but a label given to this identity in this present body. So who am I? And that is when the questioning process begins. I start to question my existence. How I came about, who I was in my past births, which planetary system I came from, which star I fall under, my astrological signs. I start to delve into religious practices and spiritual practices simply because I am not satisfied with the answer. I start to pray to an illusionary God. And then I start to question even him. I start to experience conventional and non conventional methods; meditation, yoga, psychedelics, substances. I start reading books, listening to podcasts, read articles, watch videos, scouring, looking, seeking, finding for an answer but really, who am I? And I get desperate at every phase of the process.
Who is this being, seemingly trapped in a human body, stuck in this cycle of life and death, governed by the laws of physics and gravity and not to mention the laws of cause and effect and obligated to an illusionary God and fearing his illusionary sidekick, the Devil?
Who am I?
And so I question everything under the sun and moon. My very existence, purpose, meaning to life. But really, who am I? I learn terminologies that label me and it only complicated matters. I start learning about the soul and spirit and chakras and various ways by various Masters but each time when I think I have found an answer, I drop down disappointed and resume questioning everything again and again. It is always going back to the same square one. Who am I?
I crave to find out the Truth. The very same written in myriad of Holy texts and hymns. I crave to unearth my true identity. By now, I already know that I am not just an identity or an entity. I already understand that I am a part of a process. This process. But again, who am I? And it's a simple answer to a really stupid question.
A paradox. But a necessary one.
And as long as the Ego remains, as long as the Ego is not put to sleep, I will never feel Awake. Because the Ego has this habit of labelling itself. I am this. I am that. That is mine. This is me. That is you. I am not Enlightened. I am Enlightened. The Ego, in a bid to find out its true identity, chooses to ignore the simple answer. A very simple answer simply because the Ego thinks the answer should be something complex. The Ego tells me that the Truth I'm searching for is grand, mysterious, beautiful, majestic, big, huge and whenever it finds a need a to label something, it will never cease to stop labelling. And so long as it is never satisfied, I'll keep searching.
So who am I?
I had always known who I was but had chosen to ignore the answer. The answer, alas, had always been staring point blank in my face.
I am nothing.
There you go. I am free. It's an offensive answer if the Ego is not put to bed. But truly, I have always been nothing and there was never a need to question in the first place simply because this is the Truth. And even the word nothing, is alas a label to a feeling you get when you come to a point where you just let go and let be. All Is.
All that questioning was but a process to tame the Ego. To put it to sleep and remind myself that I had always been Awake.
What a paradox! What foolishness! I laugh it off. All Is. Just be.
I am free!
Otter Rivers ok. so you clearly state there is an ego that must be put to sleep.
Otter Rivers and you say the biggest question is "who am I?" how about this one: is there any such thing as a 'Who'?
Cassius Ribhkus There is nothing. All is
Otter Rivers ask yourself this. "what is "I"?" please tell me not what you have already figured out, but what is found when looking right now.
Cassius Ribhkus I is just a letter. A label of some sort.
Otter Rivers so you can't really find an I, but try harder. don't tell me what is not there. tell me what you do find in the search.
Otter Rivers a label for what?
Otter Rivers stop.
Otter Rivers please don't feel the need to answer quickly
Otter Rivers I have to leave for a few hours. maybe 6 hours.
Otter Rivers take your time. relax if you can. get out of thinking and look at reality. look at what is perceived. when looking for "I", you may not find it. but what is found along the way while searching?
Otter Rivers i'll check back in tonight (i'm on u.s. west coast time. you?)
Cassius Ribhkus Haha Otters, all I get is a brain numbing sensation that I just feel that the questioning should stop and I should just start seeing things for what they are. Seeing things as it is and be completely free and liberated from even the search. I'm based in Malaysia, it's 3.22AM here.
Otter Rivers let's look at some places commonly considered to be evidence of a separate self.
-body. senses/sensations
-thoughts, thinking/thinker
-control, decision making, free will
-awareness, one who is aware of separate outside stimuli/experiencer vs experience
Otter Rivers starting with body: here's an exercise to look into body as self. it's not enough to know logically you are not the body. let's have a look at actual reality before mental commentary about it.
Otter Rivers Close your eyes (after reading this ) notice the feelings labeled "body" now look for an end to the feeling. hear the sounds and see if they are really happening outside of this feeling of being. where do you end and "everything else" begin? now try flipping it around. imagine everything else at the center and the body feeling as the outer... (leave out anything you've ever learned about biology or physics for a moment.) is either perspective actually true in d.e.?
Otter Rivers when closing your eyes, feeling "body". and while noticing sounds. which is closer, the sound or the body feeling? closer to what?
Cassius Ribhkus I feel the sounds are closer than the feeling of body, although I do feel the body's presence.
Otter Rivers is there a center of sensitivity inside the body that notices everything?
Otter Rivers if so, what notices that?
Otter Rivers can you find a noticer?
Cassius Ribhkus Yes there is. It is this nameless, formless, I.
Otter Rivers if it is nameless and formless then how is it located only in the body?
Otter Rivers exercise: pick up any object around you. tell me when you have done so.
Cassius Ribhkus Alright Otter, I have picked up my wallet nearby. Holding it right now.
Otter Rivers now look at it. feel it
Otter Rivers can you find any actual separation between thethe object and awareness of the object?
Otter Rivers if you can, please describe. look for the exact dividing line between what is noticed and the noticing of it
Cassius Ribhkus Visually yes. It is square, slightly rough. Black in color.
Cassius Ribhkus And when I run my fingers on its surface, I can feel the difference in texture and design of it.
Otter Rivers i'm not asking for a description of the object of awareness. i'm asking can you find a dividing line where there is noticing vs what is noticed.
Otter Rivers ?
Cassius Ribhkus If that is the case, none. I feel it's one and the same.
Otter Rivers if there is no you, then how is there a central observer? or is it just one thing happening? I don't have a word for it but a good description might be experience and experiencer before the thought of separation between the 2.
Cassius Ribhkus In other words, you're saying, all is. Correct?
Otter Rivers well of course all is. how could it not be? i'm suggesting that you consider that the idea of a me witnessing an outer world is a learned fiction
Otter Rivers but I don't ask you to believe it. that's what these exercises are for. whatever is true, you'll see for yourself. I recommend being very suspicious of anything I say. what if i'm wrong? let d.e. be your guide
Otter Rivers I've got to go to work now. I won't be home until midnight (4am for you) so i'll send you off with this homework. take this with you through the day and night and morning. whenever you remember. look at everything happening. go outside look at the sky and animals and trees. be around people while they're doing their thing. look for self. ("others" is another word for self. if it is assumed that there are selfs in the others) is there any motivating force behind any of it? or is it just movement, color, sound, sensation. just experience playing out. including experience of watching.
Otter Rivers talk to you tomorrow cassius later!
Cassius Ribhkus Otter! There is no I. Just the process. Because when I looked at the wallet, visually I saw its shape. When I touched it, I felt its roughness. But really, there was no observer. Simply these sensations. There is really nothing.
Otter Rivers bye for now.
Cassius Ribhkus Alright, will practise this homework. Thanks buddy, see you tomorrow
Otter Rivers it doesn't take any time to "figure it out". just tell me what you find.
Cassius Ribhkus Otter, I suppose All Is. No I, nothing and yet everything.
Otter Rivers we're not aiming at finding a new conclusion or a new understanding. what is the truth of what you are? it's not a formula or a goal to be achieved. what do you find to be true that can NOT be disputed?
Cassius Ribhkus Nothing.
Cassius Ribhkus In all honesty, there is no proper word to describe it. Many mystics and Masters have used words to label it, but really, there is no point in labeling. Just being. Aware of the "present".
Otter Rivers many mystic masters can fuck off.
Otter Rivers lol. as far as we're concerned here right?
Cassius Ribhkus Of course! When you see Buddha, kill him
Otter Rivers no actual disrespect meant to any of them, I only disrespect the leaning on other's findings. no matter how holy they seem so let's find out what you see
Otter Rivers all this looking and pointing about what is self... it tends to lend it credibility. let's just relax and see what's actually going on here...
Cassius Ribhkus Like I said Otter, Nothing. There was never a need to find or question simply because there was never a need. I don;t know how else to put it into words as if i do, it's beyond words.
Cassius Ribhkus It's a hilarious paradox.
Cassius Ribhkus Like a dog chasing after its own tail when the tail had always been the dog.
Otter Rivers it's not like you said. what actually is, is not "nothing". that is just a cool word. and I know you can't use words to describe what is beyond words, so this isn't a rebuke, just another pointer. it's not what we say.
Otter Rivers yeah.
Otter Rivers so have you completely seen through illusion of an imaginary separate "me"? if not, what would you say is missing from this guidance?
Cassius Ribhkus Completely, not yet. Hahaha but I know the key is letting go. Direct experience is another key. It's like switching off a fan, it takes time for the blades to halt. Likewise for the Ego fan haha
Cassius Ribhkus But I'm grasping this Truth slowly but surely !
Otter Rivers sounds like your giving yourself a project to work on for years and never complete.
Otter Rivers looking and reporting what I actually perceived now, is there a separate self or not? if so describe. and is what you've described actually a separate self?
Otter Rivers it's no good looking for results to see if you've really seen what is true. if you're waiting for life to become perfectly smooth to the point where you are never tricked again, that's not what i'm looking to help with. the goal is seeing. not what effects the seeing my have your life.
Cassius Ribhkus Otter, give me some time to answer this. In the mean time, can you recommend me a practise that would help me better understand?
Otter Rivers there's nothing to understand. but I understand the craving for some technique. that's conditioned response. wanting to grasp it and "get it". i'll tell you this technique. let go. give up. you're never gonna get it. it wll never benefit you. you can't even do anything about giving up. you cant actually let go since you never had a grip. so just let go.
Otter Rivers no technique will get you where you've always been. techniques will only keep the mind satisfied.
Otter Rivers take all the time you need. but it's not something that takes time. let's talk more tomorrow!
Cassius Ribhkus Thank you Otter! See you tomorrow
Otter Rivers so what do you have to say lately? where are you at with all of this?
Cassius Ribhkus- Otter, I sent you a PM. Let's talk there haha
Otter Rivers- yes, reading back over our conversation I see I may have misunderstood some things you said and reacted slightly incorrectly to what you were probably actually saying. like when you said you'd like a technique to help ou see this more clearly, yes we have direct experience exercises that will help with that. i'll talk to you now in PM.
[CONTINUED IN PRIVATE CHAT]
Cassius Rhibkus- To answer your question, I have stopped questioning, and I know the key is all about letting go. But somehow, I feel like I'm giving up.
Otter Rivers- perfect.
is this seen as a bad thing? if so, where do you feel there is still work to be done?
[C=CASSIUS / O=OTTER]
C- I have mixed feelings about it. Sometimes I feel calm and other times I feel the things I do such as my job and all seems redundant.
.
O- probably because it is redundant.
repetitive
creatures need food and shelter. humans seem to mostly do that by getting jobs and money. oh well. yeah I work too and take transit every day for a total of 4 hours. it is very repetitive.
so if you saw that there was really no "you/me" self experiencing the experience, just experience happening including awareness (not separate: awareness vs. experience) would there always be feelings of calm or is some turbulence allowed?
also, seeing that there is no self, is this proof that consciousness will never fall into identification again? can you know that? i'll tell you, I am often finding that I am in trance of "being me" but I have definitely seen that is just a dream state. so when being me causes enough suffering, looking happens again and it is seen clearly again that it was just a dream. an illusion. it happens faster and faster as time goes by but if I was waiting for permanent calm and bliss before I accepted that I had seen that self is fiction, then I would still be waiting and denying I had actually seen it.
.
C- I suppose if there is no "you/me" I would be calm and turbulences would just be considered as another learning process. An experience of some sort. I find it to be an up and down graph. At times I feel really calm and relaxed and sort of "neutral" about things. And there are other times when I feel really choked, suffocated at times. But I know it is just me strangling myself haha So I just practise letting go. I don't even know if I have seen it. But many experiences have been quite convincing that the consciousness can and will never fall into identification again. I remember going two weeks last Dec simply feeling euphoric and relaxed with life. But I realised nothing is permanent and so I fall back into the repetitive zone again. Like a cycle haha
.
O- right. well we're not trying to achieve an effect here. that is not the reason i'm talking to you.
so tell me where you still find identification as a separate being?
you are the one feeling the ups and downs? you are the one letting go or choking yourself? there is a thing inside that receives the experience and lets go or not? let's find it. then we can ask "then what notices that?"
.
C- I usually find identification to a certain phase in my life as a separate being. It assumes this event as good and that event as bad etc
.I know I'm not the one and I also understand that the Ego latches on to these experiences and perceives it as letting go and choking myself. And of course there were many times I have found myself observing myself doing this.
.
O- 1) is there any control over whether an event is seen as good or bad?
2)what is the ego? is it something?
.
C- 1) Absolutely none. But I do know that I'm free to make the choices but not at all free from the consequences
2) I view the Ego as this thing that views itself as Cassius Ribhkus, age 28, from Malaysia etc and Cassius has a car. But I also know the Ego is subtle in that it makes one feel negative and even positive. It gives a reason for things and meaning.
.
O- ok let's focus on choice then we can come back to ego as a thing.
.
C- Alright
.
O- if there is no you, what is choice? is there a chooser?
.
C- If there is no me, then there is nothing haha no choice or chooser
.
O- I can understand if you say you are free to do whatever. but is there ever any possibility, looking back, that any other thing could have happened?
i have a great exercise for this. i use it a lot. it works wonders. let me copy it here. one moment!
.
C- Hmm I suppose there is a possibility because I doubt this thing we call life is predetermined
.
O- predetermined? by who or what?
i'm only suggesting that we check out is there really anything called choice?
if so there would need to be a chooser.
i'm not saying that creatures don't look at options and do what they do, just that there is no other path that they could go. only the one they do go.
like any organism. responding to circumstances.
.
C- Choice as in, do I go to bed now or later? And I choose, and face the consequence of sleeping early or late.
.
O-
here's the exercise. Take your time. if you do it right, it should take at least 10minutes. please let me know how it goes. answer each part like
1)
2)
3)
take a few minutes and actually do this slowly and watchfully.
This is very over-simplified for a reason.
let's take a good hard look at exactly what is happening with what we call "decision making"!
Answer each part ok? it's a good exercise. it gets right to the point!
1) Sit with one hand on each leg. think about the right hand moving. think "I will move the right hand".
imagine it happening.
did the hand move?
2) now just move the right hand. try it both ways again. watch closely, what was the difference?
3) was there any cause-effect relationship between the thought and the movement? or was there simply a thought,
then either movement or not, then another thought "I did that. I moved the hand."? Do this a few times very slowly.
report only exactly what is noticed.
4) after spending a few minutes on that last exercise, return both hands to resting on your legs.
Now think "I will decide to move my left or right hand".
Wait until you are calm and settled. Watch closely! Now move one of your hands (or both/neither. whatever).
5) did choosing really happen or was there possibly just a thought "I will move my ____ hand" and then this happened or not,
followed almost immediately by another thought "I did that. I chose to do that." ...?
the word "choice" implies that something else could've happened, right?
is there choice happening? what IS choice? is it an idea or does it actually happen?
is there a chooser/agent/decider? did you do/choose/decide it?
or did something just happen followed by a habitual thought "I chose/did that."
6) let's say the right hand moved. looking directly at reality,
is there any possibility at all that the left could have moved that time? could it have been different?
can you know that? if you can say there is such a thing as choice in direct experience, shouldnt you be able to find in direct experience
that something else could've happened?
go through a day and watch decisions as closely as you can without straining. every little decision you notice...
what is really happening?
(also watch this investigation. is there something there that is investigating, or is investigation simply happening?)
so i'll come back some time today and look for your response.
.
C- Alright Otter, thank you!
.
1) No
2) I moved my right hand
3) I thought of moving my right hand and it didn't move and I thought to myself, "Well it didn't move." But when I moved the right hand, it moved, I saw it moved and felt it moved. And then I heard myself say, "Okay, moved it now."
4) I thought to myself and was calm and settled and observed closely. I saw my left thumb twitch. So I moved that. On the second try, I decided not to move any of my hands. I didn't had thoughts about it, I just moved the left hand for the first try and none for the second.
5) I chose it. Yes, the word choice gives an impression that something else could have happened. Yes, there was a decider. I was free to choose.
6) The possibility of the left moving was equally high as the right. But I decided to move only the right. Heck, even both or none would have moved. I can only know when it happens.
Will get back to you on the going through the day part.
.
O- Hey i'm sorry I have been so busy!!! please have a look at this video in the meantime. i'll try to respond more fully tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM#t=12
Neuroscience and Free Will
www.youtube.com
O- http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_Recom ... ading.html
some other cool videos about science and self/decision making.
.
C- Beautiful! Thank you so much! Will read and watch these videos and books
.Btw Otter, I'm gonna surrender to "Life" and just see where it goes. Why resist it? Futile attempt haha
.
O- yes! u cant even do anything about the surrendering! it happens when it does. you are not the surrender. this was a huge lesson i had to learn! i mean i knew it for years but when i saw it clearly letting go follows naturally
.
C- The answer was right there, directly staring at me and yet I had to stupidly concoct all sort of questions and imagine answers hahaa
.Thank you Otter, truly appreciate this
.
O- oh you are very welcome. here are some questions for you to help me see if we're done with this talk. (we can still talk but we'll see if this 'process' is done.)
.
C- Alright
.
O- 1) was there ever a self in any way at all in life? if so, what is it?
.
C- 1) No there was never a self.
.
O- what is self?
.
C-Nothing
.Self was just a silly identification to the body.
.
O- 2) what is the illusion of separate 'Me' self? how does it begin? how does it work? how is it maintained?
.
C- 2) The body. It makes one believe that this body is me. It begins when one starts to feel dissatisfied and goes on a never ending quest to seek an illusionary answer. As long as there are questions, this silly "Me" is there.
.
O- 3) how does it feel to see this. is there any difference between now and before we started talking? describe:
.
C- 3) I feel calm and extremely relaxed There is, but also deep down I had always known this was the truth but I was so ignorant to this fact. Now that I have faced it, let go, it feels great !
.
O- What was different before we started talking? Anything different now that was not so before we talked?
.
C- I feel silly and foolish haha I feel that all those questions were unnecessary when the Truth is, this is it !
.
O- 4) what was the last bit that pushed you through? Was there any specific part of our talk that caused you to look and see?
.
C- 4) I just came to a point where I had enough of these questions. Grew extremely tired of it and I decided to let it all go. I remember you telling me that it was repetitive and redundant, and I had been feeling this way before you said it. But as usual, the Self being doubtful, constantly questions. I just grew tired of the unnecessary chatter of questioning.
.Much more at peace now
.
O- 5) do you decide, intend, control any events in life? Please explain. Feel free to rant. I'd rather have that than a simple yes or no answer.
.
C- 5) I can only decide so much and intend this much and probably control a little but even that, I know, if I let go fully, life will naturally take its course.
.
O- 5a) if you can decide, what is it that is deciding? you saw that video about how 'decisions' are made in the brain up to 6 seconds before mind thinks it decided. so is mind ("I") deciding?
5b) Can you choose to let go fully? having chosen to let go, will this decision last permanently?
what is decision besides a thought?
what is "I" besides a thought?!
.
C- Hi Otter, give me some time to reply ya. My turn to be busy this time haha
.
O- UNACCEPTABLE DUDE!
Ahhhhh! just joking. take your time. dont be too long though!
.
is "i" or "me" "ego" separate self anything or just words and thoughts that dont represent anything in actual experience?
can words or thoughts do anything? can a thought think? can thought choose or decide?
.
C- Hi Otters! Sorry for keeping you waiting!
.I'm trying really hard to put to words to answer you. Thoughts cannot choose or decide (tried your right hand moving exercise). Although words and separate selves are necessary (if you take our conversation as an example) they also don't mean a thing.
.But what we think is what we become.
.It works both ways.
.
O- so do you ACTUALLY decide or control anything?
.
C- Yes, I do ultimately.
.But only from the inside (if this is a correct term to use haha)
.I can't control the weather hahaha but I can choose to be happy if it rains or shines.
.
O- is "i' anything other than a collection of thoughts?
.
what is "i" byond thought?
.
C- It's nothing.
.
O- can "nothing" choose, decide, take action?
.
C- Ahh you got me there! Hahaha of course not!
.
O- ok. so outside of mental abstraction do you have any control? do you decide anything? is an imaginary thing (seperate self being) capable of doing ANYTHING?
.
C- Beyond mental abstraction I have no control whatsoever. I can decide on what to do (should I eat this or that etc, do I decide to let go or question?) An imaginary thing is not capable of doing anything at all
.
O- you saw the video about how the body takes action up to 6 seconds before a person says they decided. maybe the body just "cooses" (if you can call it that) it reacts to situations and then "selfing" habits say "yes i did that for this or that reason" so that it can continue to seem like an entity.
even all the bad stuff. like feeling not good enough. like thinking you're a bad person and all guilt... can you see how there's a secret payoff there. a reward? illusion of self as separate from life is maintained in self hate as well as arrogance.
this isn't wisdome from otter to cassius. i'm not saying it as fact for you to accept or debate. it's called a pointer. look where these words point. tell me what u see.
.
C- In other words, if we can let go the need for a reason for anything we do, the illusion shatters, correct?
.
O- the illusion of an "I, We, Me" that can let go disappears...
I am not going to push it. I know it's only a habit that causes this returning to "I" thinking. as if anything that happens needs a doer or something for it to happen to. is there really this separation?
.A lot of it is supported by language. but consider this: just because humans invented some words like "hearing, hearer, heard" does this mean there is really a being that hears as opposed to what is heard? or is it just happening? like when you did the exercise holding your wallet. the sensations just happened. when looking for a controller or something that can let go.... isn't it the same? there is letting go or not. you can't even choose to believe this or not. just tell me what you see.
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C- The only way I can put it Otter, is that all is happening. No doings
.Everything is one and the same process
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O- yeah i think i agree! haha.
so please give an example or 2 from life story of cassius recently where it was clear there was no decider or chooser or controller.
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C- Like now, I'm going on a trip to meet someone whom I have never met via Facebook. It just happened at the spur of the moment as this person is a mutual friend of one of mine.
.I'm just going to see what he has to teach and show and at the same time I'm looking forward to share what I have learnt.
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O- ah. yes i've done that too. met a few cool people through l.u. in my area.
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C- But on a smaller scale (if you wish to put it that way) It is when I drive my car. I know where the road leads and I just go with the flow
.And I also know the destination but I enjoy the ride, the scenery and the moments. It's beautful
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O- yeah i recommend not teaching just pointing at what you see. that's what i'm doing here .questions are great pointers
awesome. i'll have a closer look tonight at our conversation and see if i've missed anything. and please consider it too. have we missed anything? are we done? i mean with the purpose of this conversation. are you "through the gate"?
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C- Life happens Otters, and there is nothing I can do about it. We just have to enjoy the happenings.